Job advice/rant.

[amc80]

Okay, I need some advice and opinions. I can't really talk to many real life people about this, since most of my friends are coworkers. Here's the story:

I've worked for my company for 3.5 years. I started as one position (which had an amazing title but the job sucked) and am now in another. Position #1 was under a boss who is....um...quirky. The company is foreign and has a very different culture, and he is from there. While it's not outwardly obvious, it is apparent that the company greatly favors workers from that country. I started at a fair salary, given the location and the completely crappy state of the economy at that time (late 2007). We get reviews every April, at which point we also find out our bonus (based on performance and company financials for the previous year) and raise. Bonuses are paid in two payments- one in April/May and the other in September/October. My company is in an industry that is very isolated from the economy and we have continued to be very profitable and have grown considerably since I've been here.

Year 1- (April 200 I wasn't eligible for a raise or bonus since I hadn't been there for all of 2007.
Year 2- (April 2009) I got a good review. I was told nobody was getting raises that year because of company performance (although later found out this wasn't true) and got a bonus I was happy with (12%).
Year 3- (April 2010) Another good review. Once again, no raise...this time because "I don't work enough overtime." I am a salaried employee and have NEVER been told the amount of hours we work have anything to do with our bonuses. We aren't a consulting company or any other type of company that has billable hours...so no reason to base raises on overtime worked. My bonus was 1/2 of what it was the year before (6%). I was thoroughly pi$$ed after this review. Went home. Cried. Unfortunately, the job market still sucked in my city so I really didn't have a lot of options.

About a month after that review I got approached by another department. I had done some work for them in the past. I ended up moving over to this department and working in a brand new position. It was considered a lateral move. They have been very happy with me and I got a really good review. We are all still waiting to find out our bonuses and/or raises.

So here I am in 2011 making exactly what I made in 2007. I applied for a job last week with an amazing company, the kind of company where there are never openings. I found out I got the job. The offer is good (not amazing, but I'm negotiating). I'm 99% sure I'm going to take it.

Here's the dilemma- we should find out in the next couple of weeks what our bonuses are here and when we will get them. I'm thinking we may get them on the 29th. I think the latest I could start new job would be May 2. If I give notice, one of two things will happen- 1) They walk me outside and I'm done (they have a history of doing this, since they are really sensitive about company information), or 2) I work my 2 weeks and they don't give me a bonus (obviously). I'm seriously considering option 3, which is taking my bonus and saying "by the way, I have gotten an amazing job offer but I have to start immediately."

Part of me feels that if I give notice, I get screwed...since bonuses are supposed to be compensation for the previous year...which I worked and I did really well. But if I don't give notice, the company sort of gets screwed (although what I do is more analysis type work, not "mandatory for daily operations" sort of work)....but then I go back to how they screwed me last year and the only reason I've been here for the past year is due to the job market. Ugh.

Advice?

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Wait for the bonus and then give your notice.

 

[wwmd8118]

Congrats on getting a new job!!! That's great news.

So, on to my two cents...

My BF was in a very similar position when we moved across the country so I could go back to school. We both worked for the same company and had a similar compensation structure to what you're describing - annual salary plus performance-based bonus and raise (supposedly annually, but that doesn't always happen, which you obviously have experienced). We made the decision to move in September, and we were going to make the actual move the following Spring. When we decided to move in September, the BF got an amazing job offer right away, and he had to start work on 10/2. But bonuses were announced and distributed on 9/30. So, since he had been with the company for 5 years and didn't want to do the "wrong" thing, he gave 2 weeks notice (they had him work the two weeks, but they are very similar to your company in that often you leave the day you give notice because of sensitive company info), left the company right around 9/30 and did not get a bonus. He's been gone for 2 years now and it literally only took about 2 weeks for him to realize that he made the wrong decision. There is not one ounce of him that does not regret NOT taking the bonus and then leaving the next day. Mind you, he is a good guy and so aware and concerned with people's professional perceptions of him. So, it's not that he's a jerk, it's that it was stupid of him to forgo thousands of dollars because he didn't want to upset anyone at the time. Meanwhile, it made little difference - if he hadn't given them notice and had taken the bonus, perhaps one or two people would have been in a pinch for a couple days, but that's about as severe as the effect would have been. Even worse, his old boss and he are still close friends, and she says she's even surprised he didn't wait for his bonus. So, IMHO, I say wait for the bonus and then tell them you're taking another job. That bonus is money that you earned - it's related to the last year you worked there, and you deserve it.

Good luck and congrats again.

 

[Anonymous]

Wait for the bonus and then give your notice.

This.

Is it possible for them to be completely oblivious to your offer with reference checks? If so, then I'd just talk to the new company and say that you would LOVE the job, etc. but you're right in the middle of a 3-4 week project and ask if it would be possible to start on X date. Make it clear that you don't want to jeopardize your new position with them and will make other arrangements if it will be a problem. Chances are they will be okay with it.

I wouldn't just take my bonus and leave, unless you are absolutely sure that you 1. will never go back to that company no matter what and 2. know without a doubt that you won't lose a reference for future positions. In other words, make sure it's a bridge that you can burn without regretting it later. I'm not saying that they DESERVE notice, just that you want to make sure you don't lose your ability to have strong references for the work you've done since 2007 in future endeavors.

 

[wwmd8118]

I wouldn't just take my bonus and leave, unless you are absolutely sure that you 1. will never go back to that company no matter what and 2. know without a doubt that you won't lose a reference for future positions. In other words, make sure it's a bridge that you can burn without regretting it later. I'm not saying that they DESERVE notice, just that you want to make sure you don't lose your ability to have strong references for the work you've done since 2007 in future endeavors.

I would agree with this if I hadn't been through the same thing and seen that it truly depends on the company. When you're dealing with a company that often doesn't even allow employees to work their 2 weeks out because of sensitive company information (see my post above), I think there's a bit of a different mentality when you give notice because for many the notice day is equivalent to their last day. Like I said in my post, we still communicate with tons of people from our old company (fellow employees up through partners), and they all think it's crazy that my BF didn't take his bonus and then go. We're still extremely close with all of the people we worked with and they joke about how my BF always has to do the right thing but that time he went a little too far. But again, it depends on the company and the position, and you'll have to make that decision for yourself. I 100% agree with putting in notice after you take the bonus if you have that option, but when I read your post, I understood it as you had to start the new job right away (which was the same situation my BF experienced). If that's not the case, then absolutely give as much notice as you can. Or even if you can only give one week, the old job will appreciate that you're trying to do what you can without sabotaging the new job opportunity.

 

[kateydid05]

First off I think it's a bunch of BS that you were elligible for a raise, were told they were not giving them out, and you found that to be a lie. In this economy I had the same situation but it was the truth. If it was a lie I would have raised hell with HR if possible.

That being said, take the bonus and then give notice (or just quit--up to you but I wouldn't burn that bridge) if you do agree to the position. You certainly deserve it and was for the past year. I would not put it past them to take it away from you judging by past behavior. Cash it quick but hang onto it just in case

 

[amc80]

Thanks everyone. To answer some questions- The new company would want me to start soonish. Not necessarily in 2 weeks, but they wouldn't let me wait, say, 6 weeks...

Regarding burning bridges- This company is weird. They have the attitude that working for them is a privilege. It even extends to our contracts with who we sell product to...as in "they should bend over backwards for us" rather than "we are grateful they want to buy our product." I can't see a situation where I would want to be rehired. I also have references I can use (the lady I trained for my old position- well, her title (aka my old title) is an awesome one and she would be more than happy to be a reference...she knows about my situation and is fully on my side). My worry is the moral one. I don't believe it is okay to screw someone just because they screwed you- bad behavior on their part isn't an excuse for bad behavior from me. But...a big reason I don't like the company is I just don't trust them. So even if I did do the right thing, there's no guarantee they would even care one way or another.

Update- I called the HR manager at new company. I had a bunch of questions and I brought up the start date issue. He agreed it would be dumb of me to quit and give up my bonus. He is going to see if they could possibly offer me a signing bonus in order to get me over there faster (I told him if they offered me this I could give my two weeks today). So, just waiting for the response.

After all, I have a wedding to pay for...

 

[wwmd8118]

Update- I called the HR manager at new company. I had a bunch of questions and I brought up the start date issue. He agreed it would be dumb of me to quit and give up my bonus. He is going to see if they could possibly offer me a signing bonus in order to get me over there faster (I told him if they offered me this I could give my two weeks today). So, just waiting for the response.

That's awesome! Sounds like you hopefully won't have to burn any bridges after all. Glad to hear it.

 

[maebelle]

Update- I called the HR manager at new company. I had a bunch of questions and I brought up the start date issue. He agreed it would be dumb of me to quit and give up my bonus. He is going to see if they could possibly offer me a signing bonus in order to get me over there faster (I told him if they offered me this I could give my two weeks today). So, just waiting for the response.

 

[asymons412]

Wait for the bonus and then give your notice.

+1

 

[asymons412]

Oops, didn't see that last update. How wonderful!

 

[amc80]

Wait for the bonus and then give your notice.

+1

This would be the ideal situation. The problem is new job doesn't want me to wait that long to start, since we could potentially not get our bonuses for another month.

 

[confusedaisy]

You mentioned something earlier about a contract- is it in your contract that you need to be in the office on your last day to get your bonus? What is the verbiage regarding bonuses? Ours states that you need to be at the company through the year in order to receive the bonus (which we pay out in February). So employees who left the company on 1/15/2011 still got their bonus. Check that contract. if it says you need to be there on your last day, make your last day the day after your bonus is paid out. Then, when you resign, be sure to let your manager know that you are aware that you will still be receiving your bonus based off of what is stated in the contract.

 

[amc80]

You mentioned something earlier about a contract- is it in your contract that you need to be in the office on your last day to get your bonus? What is the verbiage regarding bonuses? Ours states that you need to be at the company through the year in order to receive the bonus (which we pay out in February). So employees who left the company on 1/15/2011 still got their bonus. Check that contract. if it says you need to be there on your last day, make your last day the day after your bonus is paid out. Then, when you resign, be sure to let your manager know that you are aware that you will still be receiving your bonus based off of what is stated in the contract.

No contract. The contract I was referring to was between the company and other companies (as an example of my company's attitude). I know if I were to give notice at any point prior to the day we actually receive our bonuses (at with time it would be in my account already, they are done through direct deposit) I would not get it.

 

[merilenda]

That's great if you can get the signing bonus! That sounds like a win-win situation.

My worry about not giving notice is if you need to use the company as a future reference. Generally, when you are applying for a new job and your references are called, one of the only pieces of information they can give is whether you are eligible for re-hire. If you don't give notice, you may not be eligible for that, which would make it problematic to use the company as a reference.

 

[amc80]

Okay, just heard back. No-go on the signing bonus...but they said they can wait for me to start until May 16, which is still flexible. So, if we get our bonuses on April 29, I'll give my notice at that point. New company said that if current company shows me the door at that time I'm more than welcome to start earlier. If we get our bonuses May 13, I may or may not give notice. It sort of depends on the bonus and/or raise. If they screw me over (again) then I will show them equal courtesy. All in all, I'm really excited. The company is amazing. There's a free gym on site. I get to wear jeans, everyday (one of the biggest benefits, ha). I'm also really looking forward to expanding my social circle. So, yay!

 

[missy]

Congratulations on the new opportunity amc!
I would do just as you are planning to do. Wait until the bonus and give notice. The bonus is for past performance so you are not cheating them in any way so I see no reason not to wait and get what you deserve. This reminds me of when our super was leaving after the christmas holidays and some people did not give him a holiday gift as they normally would since he would no longer be there and they wouldn't be able to get anything out of it. That made me angry since he worked hard all year (and all the years he was there) and deserved better treatment. But you cannot make people do the right thing but you have some control in this situation so I say go ahead as you deserve the bonus!

Good luck with your new job

 

[amc80]

Okay. So my decision is basically to give notice if I can. I still have a month before I'm scheduled to start new job...so assuming we get our bonuses in the next 2 weeks, I'll be able to give 2 weeks.

On a related note, it is SO hard to concentrate with one foot out the door. My boss will talk to me about long term projects and all I can think about is "blah blah blah I won't be here anyway." It's senioritis all over.

 

[amc80]

I spoke too soon. I just asked a the VP of Accounting about our bonuses (we have a good relationship...and she knows I am wedding planning, which is a great reason to want my bonus ASAP). She said she still hasn't heard anything. Her best guess is May 13. My tentative start date for new company is May 16. I've thought of a few "get out of getting notice" scenarios:

1) Since my company has a history of showing people the door when they give notice, I can very easily (and understandably) say that because of this, I didn't think it was in my best interest to give notice.

2) A few years ago, some big whigs from here left and started a competing company. A handful of employees eventually left and went over there. My company is very sensitive about the possibility of people sharing secrets or insider info. If they have any thought that a person is leaving here to go there, there's no doubt they would be walked out the door. If I don't tell them where I'm going, this is what they will assume.

In related news, I just found out that the people in the office where the company is from (foreign country) got their bonuses two weeks ago.

 

[iheartscience]

Okay. So my decision is basically to give notice if I can. I still have a month before I'm scheduled to start new job...so assuming we get our bonuses in the next 2 weeks, I'll be able to give 2 weeks.

On a related note, it is SO hard to concentrate with one foot out the door. My boss will talk to me about long term projects and all I can think about is "blah blah blah I won't be here anyway." It's senioritis all over.

Ha, I had severe senioritis the second I knew I was going to move out of state. I gave about a month's notice and that last month was torture!

I know I'm late to the thread but I think you're completely right in waiting until the last moment to give notice. I hope it works out and you can get your bonus!

 

[marymm]

Since you have been so frank with the new company, call them and explain the updated circumstances of your bonus, and let them know you'd like your start date to be May 23 so you can give a one-week notice to your current company on May 16 -- this way you get your bonus on Fri May 13, you give a one-week notice on Mon May 16 and work out the week, and start your new job on Mon May 23. Explain to the new company there is the strong likelihood that your current company will show you to the door on Mon May 16 when you give notice, and you'd be happy to contact them if this happens in case they'd like to advance the start date.

If the new company doesn't agree, then indicate you will proffer your immediate resignation at your current job on May 16th, and will start the new job on Tue May 17th. I can't imagine any company would find a one-day delay in start date to be unreasonable under these circumstances.

Best of luck to you... sounds like you are onto bigger and better things with this new job!

 

[amc80]

Since you have been so frank with the new company, call them and explain the updated circumstances of your bonus, and let them know you'd like your start date to be May 23 so you can give a one-week notice to your current company on May 16 -- this way you get your bonus on Fri May 13, you give a one-week notice on Mon May 16 and work out the week, and start your new job on Mon May 23. Explain to the new company there is the strong likelihood that your current company will show you to the door on Mon May 16 when you give notice, and you'd be happy to contact them if this happens in case they'd like to advance the start date.

If the new company doesn't agree, then indicate you will proffer your immediate resignation at your current job on May 16th, and will start the new job on Tue May 17th. I can't imagine any company would find a one-day delay in start date to be unreasonable under these circumstances.

Best of luck to you... sounds like you are onto bigger and better things with this new job!

I think this is a good plan. The worst they can say is no, right? The part that sucks about this entire thing is I really like my boss. She and I were friends before she became my boss. But I know that if she were in the same situation she would do the exact same thing, since she was also royally screwed by the company once as well.