James Allen tells me IGI as good as GIA. True?

[Confusedabouteverything]

Hi there,

I am new to buying solitaire diamonds and am hoping you can help. I have between 10-10,500 to spend and want to go as big as I can for that amount, no lower than H in color because I actually can see color and below H bothers me. Went to James Allen based on internet reviews. I told the chat rep. I was willing to sacrifice clarity as long as it was eye clean, which, I explained, TO ME means inclusions will be hidden by the setting. I was hoping to have an actual discussion about this (with someone on the other end actually looking at stones), but that did not happen. I was told -- on chat-- that, to get eye clean, I need to go with Vs2 minimum (maybe Vs1, I can't recall). Reading this forum though, a lot of you women seem to have "eye clean" stones that fall below this. So that is my first question: How do I cut corners on clarity and still get an "eye clean" stone.

Next, three JA reps insist that IGI is as good as GIA, even though literally everything I have read on the internet says otherwise.

Am starting to wonder what is up here. The stone I reserved is IGI not GIA and is just 1.52 cts. Honestly, I was hoping for more bang for my buck. That said, the diamond actually looks pretty and it spoke to me more than the only other two they said they had in my range with GIA cert and 1.5 minimum (I won't go to 1.48 because, believe it or not, I DO see the difference).

If you care to weigh in, here is a link to the stone. I am really having second thoughts.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2861969

Any help, thoughts, advice, name of person at JA to deal with would be much appreciated. Am also interested in names of other, reputable on-line brokers. Thanks.

 

[flyingpig]

Generally, IGI is considered a second tier lab in PS community.
However, there are a few trade members who suggest that IGI's color/clarity grading is reasonably accurate and about the same as GIA/AGS.

James Allen's response in 2009
"IGI grading for color and clarity is less stringent than GIA or AGS, so the pricing of these diamonds has been discounted to reflect those softer standards"
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-igi-really-that-bad.128091/#post-2252534

2017 James Allen (FAQ)
A Gemological Institute of America (GIA), American Gem Society (AGS), or International Gemological Institute (IGI) diamond certificate assures the value and quality of your diamond. GIA, AGS and IGI are the gold standard in diamond grading. Their reports detail key characteristics of each diamond.

General recommendation is to avoid IGI.

Regarding the H VS1 itself, I would keep looking. Not disastrous, but not well cut either.

 

[Confusedabouteverything]

Thank you. This is very helpful. I am going to cancel the order and go to another company to find my stone because I do not like how I was dealt with. TWO reps wrote that there is NO difference between IGI and GIA. When I said I had read that there is a substantial difference, one wrote that a recent study indicates both grading systems are on par. When I asked for a link to that study (on chat) she literally changed the subject and said "I am sure I can help you find something comparable if you prefer GIA/AGS" rather than point me to the study. My spidey senses were up at that point and I should have just said "no thanks," but I had read such good things about JA, and, to my untrained eye, this stone is pretty. But, when spending north of 10k, I want more than something that looks pretty to a person who does not yet know how to distinguish between diamonds.

Had the CSR simply given me the info. in the thread to which you link, and explained that the stone is priced to reflect the lack of GIA/AGS grading, I would have had the information I needed to make an educated choice. Now I have lost trust and that is not good when dealing with an online retailer. I still have questions about what to look for, but nothing concerning this specific stone, which I am no longer interested in buying. Thanks for this. It was helpful and eye opening.

I had hoped to spare myself the time it takes to learn what you all already know, but I see that cutting corners is dangerous. So I have more research to do.

In the interim, which online retailers are known for fair pricing and honesty?

 

[WillyDiamond]

In the interim, which online retailers are known for fair pricing and honesty?

BGD, GOG, WF to name just a few.

 

[oldminer]

There is nothing improper about James Allen, but when a customer is willing to accept a second tier cert, then the games begin. Some consumers really like to swim against the tide and to take chances. Some are ill-informed.

I'd suggest, stick to the "best" lab recommendations and buy with confidence from PS Vendors. Eliminating a large and successful vendor because they offer some diamonds with secondary lab certs will not make your search a more successful one. The problem of lab accuracy in grading not really a vendor selection issue. Just eliminate searching for lab graded stones from those labs you choose not to accept.

 

[Confusedabouteverything]

Thanks WD. I have figured out what BGD and WF refer to, but I need help with COG. LOL. Thanks.

FWIW, I canceled my JA order with an explanation that included a reference to the 2009 post referred to above. JA responded with the following info.:

"We do stand by offering IGI diamonds on our website and that their grading is comparable to GIA and AGS, but it ultimately comes down to personal preference. GIA has been around the longest of the three labs we offer diamonds from, GIA, AGS and IGI, and many people feel the most comfortable sticking with GIA. That said, a lot has changed since 2009. One of the more recent studies done that the representative may have been referring to can be found here:
http://www.diamonds.net/News/NewsItem.aspx?ArticleID=43417"

Old Miner -- I am sure JA is a decent retailer, and I am NOT eliminating them because they include IGI diamonds in their mix. if anything, I think giving consumers options is a good thing.

I have decided to eliminate them because, I was candid about being a newbie, explained what I had seen on the web, and asked for honest info. Telling me -- in effect -- that "they are all the same" does not appear to be an accurate response to a straightforward question.

It is all about being candid. If I am given the information and then make an educated decision, that is on me. So, again, it isn't the fact that they carry IGI diamonds, it is the fact that I do not believe I was given entirely accurate information, and trust is an important thing when buying on line, site unseen.

 

[tyty333]

You might talk to Yekutiel at ID Jewelry. He is where we usually send people that are trying to maximize size within a budget.

Other options...
www.enchanteddiamonds.com

Edit...GOG is good old gold

Edit...if you contact Yekutiel send him the link to that stone you liked and hopefully he can find one that
has a similar look.

 

[Confusedabouteverything]

You might talk to Yekutiel at ID Jewelry. He is where we usually send people that are trying to maximize size within a budget.

Other options...
www.enchanteddiamonds.com

Edit...GOG is good old gold

Thanks!

 

[tyty333]

Enchanted diamonds link for you
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamo...al,Excellent&shape=Round&wire_price_max=10690

 

[hifihua428]

Not sure if you noticed. The original stone you chose has "brown" undertone. That de-value the stone as well. Something to be aware of.

 

[Confusedabouteverything]

Not sure if you noticed. The original stone you chose has "brown" undertone. That de-value the stone as well. Something to be aware of.

I did not notice this. Thanks. Is it something you see when you look at it on the screen? I ask because I am not seeing brown, which is weird because I can see color in the natural. That is, in the real world, I tend to see the color in the near colorless.

 

[gm89uk]

I have decided to eliminate them because, I was candid about being a newbie, explained what I had seen on the web, and asked for honest info. Telling me -- in effect -- that "they are all the same" does not appear to be an accurate response to a straightforward question.

It is all about being candid. If I am given the information and then make an educated decision, that is on me. So, again, it isn't the fact that they carry IGI diamonds, it is the fact that I do not believe I was given entirely accurate information, and trust is an important thing when buying on line, site unseen.

There are many posts about IGI diamonds here and US IGI appraisal reports are the reason why their reputation was heavily tarnished. IGI Mumbai is reputable and in certain parts of the world, preferred and more prominent than GIA. Some vendors here have also stated that place IGI Mumbai accuracy very close to GIA/AGS.

It's not quite as black and white as you seem to make it and you cannot criticise JA on the information provided, when it is a grey area and some varying opinion even within trade members on the accuracy of IGI Mumbai.

You'll find members in the US are much quicker to discount IGI than other parts of the world although yes the general trend and attitude is GIA/AGS is the safer bet and in the experience of many. IGI Mumbai is much closer in accuracy to GIA than for example EGL which is an entirely different ball game. I cannot see a reason why trust has been broken here.

Some dealers may choose IGI because of certain proportions, such as if a pavilion angle is 40.49 it'll get GIA very good instead of excellent but still able to retain an excellent cut for IGI.

For me when looking at IGI stones I'd always ask, is there a particular reason why it's been sent to IGI instead of GIA/AGS, is the price too good (rereporting to get $$ more is not difficult for dealers). Will having an IGI certificate impair resale ability / trade up etc.

A consumer recently posted a GIA stone that was dual graded J/VS2 GIA and I/VS2 by IGI, that's just a solitary case. One grade difference is an accepted tolerance.

There are of course thousands of GIA stones to choose from but I wouldn't want you to limit one of the largest online vendor resource due to miscommunication. You have PS here to help you vet stones as well, so don't discount a great diamond found on JA just because it's JA (if you happen to find one there).

 

[gm89uk]

I did not notice this. Thanks. Is it something you see when you look at it on the screen? I ask because I am not seeing brown, which is weird because I can see color in the natural. That is, in the real world, I tend to see the color in the near colorless.

This depends on the saturation of your screen settings. I see a brown twinge on my mobile phone, but not on my laptop.

 

[Confusedabouteverything]

There are many posts about IGI diamonds here and US IGI appraisal reports are the reason why their reputation was heavily tarnished. IGI Mumbai is reputable and in certain parts of the world, preferred and more prominent than GIA. Some vendors here have also stated that place IGI Mumbai accuracy very close to GIA/AGS.

It's not quite as black and white as you seem to make it and you cannot criticise JA on the information provided, when it is a grey area and some varying opinion even within trade members on the accuracy of IGI Mumbai.

You'll find members in the US are much quicker to discount IGI than other parts of the world although yes the general trend and attitude is GIA/AGS is the safer bet and in the experience of many. IGI Mumbai is much closer in accuracy to GIA than for example EGL which is an entirely different ball game. I cannot see a reason why trust has been broken here.

Some dealers may choose IGI because of certain proportions, such as if a pavilion angle is 40.49 it'll get GIA very good instead of excellent but still able to retain an excellent cut for IGI.

For me when looking at IGI stones I'd always ask, is there a particular reason why it's been sent to IGI instead of GIA/AGS, is the price too good (rereporting to get $$ more is not difficult for dealers). Will having an IGI certificate impair resale ability / trade up etc.

A consumer recently posted a GIA stone that was dual graded J/VS2 GIA and I/VS2 by IGI, that's just a solitary case. One grade difference is an accepted tolerance.

There are of course thousands of GIA stones to choose from but I wouldn't want you to limit one of the largest online vendor resource due to miscommunication. You have PS here to help you vet stones as well, so don't discount a great diamond found on JA just because it's JA (if you happen to find one there).

Thanks for your input. I definitely appreciate and am absorbing all views. A discussion of IGI NY v. Mumbai would have been helpful, but that distinction was never made/discussed, even after I went back a second time (after placing the order) and expressed my concerns based on what I had read about IGI generally. Seems like this is bound to come up a lot and that there should be a script for responding to such questions.

I'll look at the other sites and, if they do not have what I want, I can always check JA again. I am not in any hurry. Again, thanks for your input.

 

[msop04]

The stone I reserved is IGI not GIA and is just 1.52 cts. Honestly, I was hoping for more bang for my buck. That said, the diamond actually looks pretty and it spoke to me more than the only other two they said they had in my range with GIA cert and 1.5 minimum (I won't go to 1.48 because, believe it or not, I DO see the difference).

I wanted to comment on this statement... OP, carat is WEIGHT, not size. It isn't uncommon at all for a stone of lesser weight to be larger in size (diameter). That said, you need to focus on the dimensions, not the weight. For example, I have a 3.33 ct stone that faces up more like a 3.5-3.6 @ 9.8 mm...

 

[ChristineRose]

EGL and countless "labs" that are actually the back room of a shady dealer basically exist to cheat the customer. IGI is sloppy, fast, and cheap, but not actively trying to rip people off. You can find countless similar stones with GIA grades so there's no reason to settle in this case.

 

[MollyMalone]

Not sure if you noticed. The original stone you chose has "brown" undertone. That de-value the stone as well. Something to be aware of.

This depends on the saturation of your screen settings. I see a brown twinge on my mobile phone, but not on my laptop.

I don't think folks should think whatever they are seeing on their screen is "for real", unless they have color-calibrated their screen very recently (calibration "drifts" with the passage of time) -- using software especially designed for that purpose, not just whatever so-called color calibration feature is built in (and most people don't even routinely use that less accurate feature to "tune" the screens on their computers-mobile devices).

 

[msop04]

OP, what is your budget for the stone?

 

[msop04]

What about this stone?
HCA 1.9 (ask for IS/ASET)
7.28 x 7.26 mm
$8700
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...i-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2655291

 

[Confusedabouteverything]

What about this stone?
HCA 1.9 (ask for IS/ASET)
7.28 x 7.26 mm
$8700
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...i-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2655291

Thanks. Am looking now. My budget is up to 10.5k.

 

[Confusedabouteverything]

I don't know. Price is right, but it does not speak to me, and I can't say why. I found one I think I like on one of the other sites suggested here (and I literally can't recall which at the moment, but it is in NYC). Am waiting to hear back.

But I DO appreciate suggestions re stones to examine. That is extremely helpful.

 

[MollyMalone]

What James Allen was saying back in 2009 doesn't mean it should be deemed gospel truth today. John Pollard -- formerly with Whiteflash and now the U.S. Executive for High Performance Diamonds ( i.e., he wasn't hired by StonesThatLookLikeFrozenSpit&WereGradedByEGL-Israel.com) -- has seen a helluva lot more loose diamonds & reports than anyone who's weighed in here. That JA diamond was graded by IGI Mumbai, and John does not consider IGI Mumbai's lab to be a second or third tier one whose reports warrant blanket skepticism. A quick sampling of some of his observations in recent years:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/buying-a-diamond-ring-in-dubai.212793/#post-3871158
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/igi-grading-system.182725/#post-3323307
More generally re IGI:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/need-advice-igi-rating-james-allen.226303/#post-4090143

That said, a stone with a report from IGI Mumbai, Antwerp, or Hong Kong is unlikely to have the same kind of "trade-in" value here in the States as a GIA-graded stone. But odds are JA is selling the IGI stone for less than it would with a GIA/AGS report. And not everyone is up for replacing their e-ring diamond (no one in my circle of friends & family has ever done so; they've all held fast to the sentiment attached to the original e-ring diamond). If an upgrade replacement is something in your future, JA does have a lifetime trade-up policy whereby they credit you with 100% of the purchase price of the stone, provided the new purchase is at least twice that original purchase price; that's a fairly standard requirement albeit not a condition of a generous trade-up policy.
https://www.jamesallen.com/guarantee/lifetime-upgrade/

Bottom line as I see it: although any one of us might decide against the JA stone for various reasons, the piece of paper that comes with that particular JA diamond isn't a reason to dismiss it.

 

[msop04]

Thanks. Am looking now. My budget is up to 10.5k.

Okay... how about these? (hold down shift key when clicking on BN links)

HCA 1.9, 7.30 x 7.27 mm, $9675 (I like the faceting better on this one, and I love that it has MBF)
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD08544918

HCA 1.9, 7.44 x 7.42 mm, $10,215 (this looks to be a "high" I color)
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD08535068

 

[gm89uk]

I don't think folks should think whatever they are seeing on their screen is "for real", unless they have color-calibrated their screen very recently (calibration "drifts" with the passage of time) -- using software especially designed for that purpose, not just whatever so-called color calibration feature is built in (and most people don't even routinely use that less accurate feature to "tune" the screens on their computers-mobile devices).

Absolutely, that's what I was trying to say by showing the discrepancy between my devices. But I wasn't clear so thank you for clarifying.

 

[whitewave]

I would call and ask though.. it shows brown tint on both of my screens. It is a pretty stone...


ETA: never mind I see OP has moved on from this stone

ETA: nearly everyone I know traded their stone up for a bigger one at some point..... so your fiancée may or may not at a possible later date, lol

 

[Karl_K]

You buy an igi graded stone, it happens to be from one of the better igi labs and they decided to properly grade that day.
You lose it and file a claim. Insurance company comes back with an IGI US ripoff report graded stone as "like kind".
Good luck with that.

 

[kenny]

Then tell them to send the stone to GIA.
If the same grades hold you'll buy it.

 

[EvaEvans]

I wouldn't buy IGI-Mumbai! Sounds like JA wanted to sell IGI stone to person that is not enough informed/knowledgeable. Most probably if you send this H color IGI diamond to GIA, they will grade it I or J. Stick to GIA/AGS, is my advise!

 

[gm89uk]

I wouldn't buy IGI-Mumbai! Sounds like JA wanted to sell IGI stone to person that is not enough informed/knowledgeable. Most probably if you send this H color IGI diamond to GIA, they will grade it I or J. Stick to GIA/AGS, is my advise!

Didn't you advocate buying EGL for the right price a few weeks ago?

 

[EvaEvans]

Didn't you advocate buying EGL for the right price a few weeks ago?

gm89uk, I personally appreciate EGL, but I decided not to advise about EGL any more, seeing that people here are so much against EGL!
Just for the record, my EGL certified diamond came back from GIA only one color grade down, same clarity! Only one color grade down, same clarity, NOT bad at all, don't you think?
However, talking about IGI, even for the "right" price, I wouldn't buy, sorry!
When I'm buying a diamond, I always think about the resale value. IGI is not popular in the USA. I prefer to buy diamond graded by GIA/AGS/EGL - in this particular order.