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I''ve been stupid - but please help!

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by melis6886, Jan 22, 2004.

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  1. melis6886
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
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    by melis6886 » Jan 22, 2004
    I''ve been stupid. I know I''ve done wrong but I''m trying to fix it.

    I''ve been dwelling over the not-so-smart (to put it mildly) purchase that my fiancée and I made recently. Particularly over the cost of my diamond. I am beating myself up as I was not as educated on diamonds when I made the decision. I know now that I have paid tooooo much for the diamond am in the process of doing what ever I can to get a price adjustment. It was purchased at Robbins Bros and we are trying to take them up on their "best price promise". I do not except an online price from them but definitely feel it was over-priced for the quality of diamond I got. We are meeting with them this Sunday.

    I''d like to ask for your help in critiquing this diamond so I can use it in my argument for a price adjustment or a trade for a better diamond for the same price.

    Here''s the diamond:

    GIA cert.
    Cert date: June 15,2000
    Round Brilliant
    1.02 carat/ G / VS2
    6.37 - 6.41 x 4.09 mm
    Depth: 64.0 %
    Table: 55%
    Girdle: Thin to Slightly Thick, Faceted
    Culet: None
    Polish: Very Good
    Symm: Good
    Fluor: Faint
    Price: $6,995
    Total cost of ring: $8,090 (total price reflects $574 tax discounted)

    Also, if anyone could help clarify: Is it possible that a ring can not be sized too small?
    I brought my ring back to resize from 3 1/2 to 3 1/4 (it was a bit too loose & able to fall off my finger) and was told that they''ve put a small bar underneath because they didn''t want to bend the ring any further. At least that''s what I understood it to be. I''m a bit uneasy about this but if it will comprise the setting then I''ll consider it. The setting has small side stones but is bare at the bottom. It''s been resized before (from a 7 to a 3 1/2).

    Any thoughts you may have on these 2 issues would be great. Or any suggestions (attitude w/them, tactics, etc.) in helping me make my case would be appreciated. Feel free to be brutal as I know I''ve done wrong.

    I wanted to post this not just for your help but to also make others aware of what kind of problems one can encounter at Robbins Bros. There''s not much info. on them when running a search and I hope this at least helps someone closely examine them before purchase and not make the same mistake I did. I''ve agonized over this; the purchase and our dealings with them have been a very stressful experience.
     
  2. goldenringlets
    Shiny_Rock

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    by goldenringlets » Jan 22, 2004
    I hope your stress diminishes. Ending up with a new diamond ring is, traditionally, supposed to make you happier than you were before...
     
  3. aljdewey
    Ideal_Rock

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    by aljdewey » Jan 22, 2004
    Well, quick question.....are you within the return policy window?




    I kind of suspect you couldn't return it for a full refund at this point, having sized the ring.




    If you are within the theoretical return window, though, perhaps the diamond is still refundable. Find out. It's quite deep, it seems.




    If you prefer to press them to replace the stone, then I'd print out a few examples of stones here on PS that match your carat/clarity/color specs as closely as possible and show them how that money should buy an IDEAL cut stone. Under their best price promise, you may get them to replace the stone with a better one.




    Good luck.
     
  4. pqcollectibles
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pqcollectibles » Jan 22, 2004
    The diamond you bought is a deep cut. Doesn't mean it isn't sparkly, but it looks smaller than a well cut 1 carat diamond.

    As far as price and possibly getting the store to match,.... For the price you paid, you could have gotten a SUPER IDEAL cut, Hearts and Arrows diamond like this one:

    Edited to add: When I did the search, only one diamond matching your carat weight, color, and clarity came up.

    Search012204.jpg
     
  5. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
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    by Mara » Jan 22, 2004
    Well since you asked....




    Your Stone:


    1.02 carat/ G / VS2
    6.37 - 6.41 x 4.09 mm
    Depth: 64.0 %
    Table: 55%
    Girdle: Thin to Slightly Thick, Faceted
    Culet: None
    Polish: Very Good
    Symm: Good




    The stone will look smaller than a well-cut 1c stone...probably visually faces up more like a .95c or similar. So many people try to meet that magical 1c mark but don't realize that a well-cut 1c stone should have a diameter of around 6.5mm. Your average diameter is about 6.39mm so you are missing .10mm in there. Sounds like a tiny bit? Trust me..it's visible. We saw the difference between a 7mm stone and a 7.15mm stone and it looked noticeably bigger to us (7.15mm). So you do notice the size difference IMO.




    Secondly, the depth on this stone is WAYYY out of line. 64% is way too big. That is probably where all your hidden carat weight is, where no one can see it! So your stone may weigh 1.02c but alot of it is in the DEPTH..no one sees the depth!




    Lastly, the Symm on this stone is only Good, which in combo with the other items, means this stone probably is not reflecting back as much light as it could if it was a well-cut 1c stone.




    What to ask for? Well since you may be stuck working with RB due to a restrictive return policy and/or the sizing of the ring...I would try to get them to give you a better stone, if you don't mind trading it back in. The price you paid is what you would have paid had you come online and bought an excellently cut 1c G VS stone...as PQ showed up above with her example, so don't be afraid to fight for what you want and could have gotten elsewhere. Yes they have your money, but make them work for it! [​IMG]




    With RB...I would give them the following parameters and tell them you want something that fits your bill.




    1c stone that is around 6.5mm in average diameter. The depth should be around 4mm or similar. Don't be afraid to be a TAD off...e.g. 6.52mm is okay etc. But don't have wildly swinging numbers.




    The table on this stone looks to be pretty good, but not in combo with that depth. I would focus on a table between 55-58 and a depth between 60-62. That will at least hopefully help weed out obvious duds like the 64% or 64% table.




    Thirdly, focus on getting crown and pavilion angles from RB. Ask them to run a Sarin report and don't settle for less. These angles in combination with the table and depth will help tell you more about the cut of the stone...hopefully something that your eyes will corroborate in terms of thinking 'wow that stone looks much more beautiful'.




    Lastly, focus on getting VG VG for symm and polish at the very least, though I would try for EX EX (GIA) or ID ID (AGS). Oh and also make sure it has a GIA or AGS cert. If it's EGL....be sure that its US and not Israel or another country cert.




    Hopefully using some of those parameters will help you get a more beautiful stone and more along the lines of what you paid for. G VS is an excellent combination in terms of color/clarity, my stone is a G VS1 so I am biased! [​IMG] But if you want some extra carat weight, drop that VS to an *eye-clean* SI1 and you maybe can get more like a 1.10c stone instead of a 1c. Drops in clarity do help with pricing alot.




    Anyway, print out a few online 'ideal' stones and pricing so that they can see what you are looking for and what you want them to compete with! Just because they already have your $$ does not mean they shouldn't help....




    [​IMG] Good luck!! Let us know how things turn out.
     
  6. derekinla
    Shiny_Rock

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    by derekinla » Jan 22, 2004
    This is directly from their website: www.robbinsbros.com

    "Best Price Promise If within 30 days you find a better price anywhere else we pay you the difference or give you a full refund. We're that confident."

    I think the key words in that promise are "......anywhere else" so be sure to take them up on that promise and show them multiple examples from various internet vendors. Remember, the sqeaky wheel gets the grease so be sure to keep pushing and good luck!

    I remember visiting Robbins Brothers in Torrance a year ago and leaving with the impression that their prices were a little high considering the quality of their stones. I hope it all works out and keep us posted!
     
  7. sumi
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by sumi » Jan 22, 2004
    Oh my gosh, derekinla, we must haunt the same areas. I've been to that same Robbins Brothers in Torrance! (corner of Hawthorne and Torrance Blvd., right?) freaky. And yes, I was equally unimpressed.
     
  8. derekinla
    Shiny_Rock

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    by derekinla » Jan 22, 2004
    YUP! THat's the one. I take it you're from the South Bay?
     
  9. chris-uk04
    Shiny_Rock

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    Dec 9, 2003
    by chris-uk04 » Jan 22, 2004
    Go for the full refund. Look at this stone. 1.028 G VS2 It’s a 1.028 G VS2, and it costs $6817… very similar right? However, it has an average diameter of 6.55mm. Yours has only 6.39mm, which results in 5% less area.

    Now look at this stone….0.95 carats. 0.95 VVS2 F It has an average diameter of 6.37mm. It’s one color grade better and two clarity grades better at $6440. See if your diamond was cut better, it would weigh less than the magical 1 carat mark. The price of a diamond jumps at 1 carat due to demand and marketing. So many cutters will cut a diamond poorly in order to make it weigh more. Your diamond should probably weigh about 0.96-0.97 carats…. a wee bit under that mark.

    Anyway, the first example is cheaper so go get your refund.
     
  10. valeria101
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by valeria101 » Jan 23, 2004

    We have the same problem (and ring size). I think the answer is yes: it is possible that the first sizing already distorthed the ring somewhat so a second such intervention would risk damage it.
    I can't see your ring: if it looks just fine (not thin, bent, with two much space between stones if more than one, all prongs in place and the top region holding the stone not bent from all that sizing), than all you were asking was to turn a 3.5 size in a 3.25 - that should be feasible.

    What you have paid seems in line with the cost of some premium cut (say "A Cut Above" at Whiteflash, or such). Is it worse?
     
  11. melis6886
    Rough_Rock

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    by melis6886 » Jan 23, 2004
    Thank you, All, so much for your thoughts and feedback on this. I'm going to use what's been suggested here to make my case when I meet with them...and unfortunately, they had pushed back the meeting until next Sunday 2/1...

    You see, the center diamond and ring re-sizing isn't the only issues we have with them. The side stones on my setting were very dark and we wanted to replace them. After much discussion with the salesman, he finally agreed to order different side stones. They haven't arrived yet, even though it's been 3 weeks.

    I don't have much respect for them at this point as they kept pushing back the date the side stones were to arrive. They first gave us a week, then 2, now 3 weeks later. I also felt deceived as they had claimed the side stones we originally had were "hand picked G color". No matter how I tried to convince my eyes to make these stones brighter, I can't. It's dark, very dark. No mistaking it. Yet the new stones ordered are also G color. Go figure.

    I haven't had my e-ring for 3 weeks now but I promise to update you all when I meet with them.

    Thanks again, you guys are really great.
     
  12. aljdewey
    Ideal_Rock

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    by aljdewey » Jan 23, 2004
    ooooooooo......just make sure that them pushing back the meeting doesn't affect your return window.




    I'd get that IN WRITING from the manager of the store before agreeing to push back the meeting.....there's NO reason they cannot meet with you NOW to discuss the issues you have NOW. And if they won't, ask for a supervisor until you get one who will.




    There's just no need for this treatment.
     
  13. Griffin
    Shiny_Rock

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    Dec 30, 2003
    by Griffin » Jan 23, 2004
    Get EVERYTHING in writing.

    BTW, if you used a credit card to purchase the ring, you have a lot of rights including unconditional refund granted to you by the card issuer whether or not the store offers or not. They can blow off a customer, but they can't blow off Visa, or the loss or suspension of thier merchant account if they don't comply. They depend on taking cards too heavily....
     
  14. Kamuelamom
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Kamuelamom » Jan 23, 2004
    Everyone has chimed in with some great advice. Like Al said, make sure their tactics are not a way to disadvantage your rights to a full refund. Sometimes they will trick you then pull the rug from under you. Do your homework, know your rights and stay confident and firm. Getting everything in writing is great protection.

    Good luck.
     
  15. fire&ice
    Ideal_Rock

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    by fire&ice » Jan 24, 2004

    My thoughts *exactly* [​IMG][​IMG]

    But, what confuses me is that you say the side stones are dark? Color doesn't make the stone darker. Higher alphabet colors make the stone warmer/yellower. Perhaps the side stones are a bad make? Any color is not going to help that.

    Edited to add: another thought is that they are pushing the meeting back so that your comp stone is sold - hence no stone to compare price to .
     
  16. Skyblue
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
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    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    by Skyblue » Jan 24, 2004
    If you have not already, please make sure to document all discussions that you have had to date. Make sure to include dates, parties, results, etc. This may help if they decide to disallow your return bec. of elapsed time.

    If it appears they are not going to cooperate with you, (and quite honestly, it already seems that is the case), you might consider loudly demanding a refund on a VERY CROWDED Saturday. [​IMG] Remember, they have alot of $$ invested in their image. Why should YOU have to pay for those radio and billboard ads! [​IMG]

    If they are trying to stall bec. "we want to wait until the new side stones come in", make it a totally separate issue. I really do not get a good feeling about all these postponements. [​IMG]

    GOOD LUCK .. we are all rooting for you!


    P.S. ICEPRINCESS ... my husband and I got married at Wayfarer's Chapel almost 6 years ago. [​IMG] We just fell in love with it and you get the best pictures .. ocean, garden, etc. [​IMG]
     
  17. melis6886
    Rough_Rock

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    by melis6886 » Jan 27, 2004
    An Update:

    At the urgency of everyone here, I decided to go to RB this past Sunday to look at possible replacements for my center diamond regardless of whether the side diamonds were in or not. And Skyblue, you're words were almost exact to what they told me! "We want to wait until the new side stones come in". Good thing I have all of you to guide me on this [​IMG]

    The diamond consultant had told me during the past week that he has "diamonds all lined up" for me to pick and choose from ...so we started looking at those.
    There was a total of 4 diamonds shown to me:
    1 - AGS0, 1.32carats, I1.
    3 - GIA cert, varying in carat (1 - 1.03) and color (better than G), all 3 were 63.4%-64%+ in depth.

    These were the only specs I remember from those diamonds. I was very disappointed as I thought they understood what I wanted in cut but instead, showing me the 3 diamonds with depths of 64+ only tells me that they still thought I was as ignorant as when I first came in. I didn't care much to look at anything else after I saw the depth of 64+% but I remember seeing a measurement of 6.12 mm on one of the 1 carat diamond and pointed that this diamond looks much smaller than mine (6.37mm), even though they are of the same weight. The consultant compared tables of the 2 diamonds & said that the table % on that diamond was larger than mine. I don't know if he was playing dumb, trying to fool me, or seriously believed that the one with the larger table% was bigger. I bluntly told him a 1 carat diamond should be about 6.5mm and neither one of the them were.

    I expressed that only the AGS0 came close to what I was looking for, but with a little better clarity, just so that I can't see the inclusions with my eyes. He then brought out 3 other diamonds, all AGS0 and around 1 carat. Great! Unfortunately, they were all I1.

    I was not happy. I pulled out my file and told him I like to share some of the information I researched with him. Showed him printouts of how much my diamond was worth else where and what I could get at the price I paid for it (and ideal diamond). I had shown him a couple of print outs the last time I was there to give him an idea of what I was looking for but this time I was not all smiles like I was before and believed he finally understood. He made a copy of one print out of an ideal diamond (thank you pqcollectibles, it was one that you researched for me) & said he would try to find one similar to that price range.

    I would just return the diamond if I could but because we were given a tax break ($574 off the total including setting) they took away the money back guarantee. Even so, it does not warrant selling us a misrepresented diamond (I was told they only sale "proper" cut diamonds). Robbins Bros. pride themselves in selling only "proper" cut diamonds, even giving you an educational session on what shallow, deep, proper cut diamonds are. But in the end, my diamond was not "proper" cut... it was deep, even falling out of the "proper" cut range on their RB cut chart.

    I'm going back one more time to try to work things out with them. After that I will have to take Griffin's advise (and Sharon's, thank you for the e-mail [​IMG]) and take it up with the credit card company. I could only afford giving them one more week as I don't want my time to dispute the charge to run out.

    Everyone here has given such great feedback/advise. Thank you all so much. It also really help ease the stress a bit to be able to share this with you all. Sorry this posting got so long.

    Oh, I'm now told the side stones were not G color.
     
  18. Griffin
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Griffin » Jan 27, 2004
    Sorry to hear about your hassles, sounds like you do need to do a chargeback on the weasels.
    It is good that you purchased the ring on a card, because without that it usually takes takes a busload of rabid lawyers and an extensive firebombing campaign to get most mall stores to give customer service after the sale...
     
  19. pqcollectibles
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pqcollectibles » Jan 27, 2004
    WTG!!! Melis!! [​IMG]

    Nothing talks like the power of a CREDIT CARD!! [​IMG]
     
  20. Skyblue
    Rough_Rock

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    by Skyblue » Jan 27, 2004
    If things continue to deteriorate, you can also report them to the BBB @ www.bbbsouthland.org. It looks like their last report was in 11/03.

    Good luck !!
     
  21. Kamuelamom
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Kamuelamom » Jan 27, 2004
    Melis6886, you have the creditcard chargeback to your benefit. Use it and run like heck to one of the fine online vendors who will help you find something real nice. IMO they have not treated you fairly, and have insulted the very education you've gained from this forum.

    Good luck in your pursuit and do keep us posted.
     
  22. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Jan 27, 2004
    Stand your ground! [​IMG]




    If the next go-round is as pathetic as the first, return the stone and ask for your money back. Should they balk, tell them that you will dispute the charge and they will lose out on both the ring and the money. Most CC companies are rabid about chargebacks and will back the customer as long as they have valid information. If you paid with AMEX, even better as they are very strict.




    Anyhow....I would see what the next round looks like but honestly, tell them to stop wasting your time. You know what you want and they need to deliver. It's as simple as that. Don't take any of their crap. [​IMG] 64% depth and I1? NO WAY. Not for what you paid and you already SAW what you could have gotten online...the same exact stone but 'ideal H&A' for the same money. They better jump through hoops to get you what you want.




    Lastly, they may present you with something like an AGS0 G SI or similar that fits your bill in terms of numbers. However, don't commit to it until you come back and tell Pscope what you found for confirmation. Also, get the crown and pavilion angles and run the numbers through the HCA. Not all AGS0's are going to be good stones...so you have to be sure that it fits the entire bill in terms of having numbers that work AND having it look good to your eye.




    Good luck with your next visit!
     
  23. derekinla
    Shiny_Rock

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    by derekinla » Jan 27, 2004

    Well said Mara. Good luck and keep us posted!
     
  24. computerguy
    Rough_Rock

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    by computerguy » Jan 27, 2004
    Urgh. I wouldn't be impressed with any I1 or I2 stone. You should at least get a SI2 clarity stone so that people will not be able to see any flaws/inclusions.

    I would second the idea of getting the credit card guys to go to bat for you.

    If all else fails, you can make a sandwich board and walk up and down the sidewalk in front of their store every Saturday and Sunday. Call the media as well. That should get their attention and divert any customers from shopping with them. If you are willing to go that far (an embarass yourself), they are usually willing to buckle. [​IMG]

    I feel the tactic of "a price break on the taxes will result in the guarantee no longer being valid" is slimy.
    RWW
     
  25. phoenixgirl
    Ideal_Rock

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    by phoenixgirl » Jan 28, 2004
    My goodness. I hope they will realize that you mean business, and resolve this sooner than later. But please don't hesitate to begin the charge-reversal process. They are giving you "the run-around."

    Look at what you could have gotten for the same $:
    1.07 G VS2 triple VHs

    You are not asking too much to be shown a stone that is at least within ideal parameters of depth, not to mention clarity, symmetry, etc.
     
  26. aljdewey
    Ideal_Rock

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    by aljdewey » Jan 28, 2004


    That doesn't make sense. They have to charge you whatever the local tax is on the total purchase price. If they discounted the ring, then they discounted the ring. I don't see how they can "give" a tax break without running afoul of the law. (I'm not an attorney, so if anyone has info on how this works, I'd be delighted to hear it.)



    Either way.......does your sales receipt information EXPRESSLY state in writing that your money-back guarantee would be voided by such pricing breaks? Did they tell you this PRIOR to sale? If not, they're up the creek. No good.



    They are playing heavy-duty games, and you should play hardball right back. Great suggestions here from the others. Go into the store, and tell them calmly that you are there to return your ring and get a refund. If you get any flack, very calmly inform them that you are going to be advising the CC company not to pay the charge; that you are going to file a claim with the BBB which will look very nice accompanying the claim from just 3 months ago, and that within a few hours, you will be standing in front of their store with EVERY local news channel you can round up telling them your story. Wouldn't it be much easier to take care of this quietly and return your money?



    If they counter with trying to get a stone in to satisfy you, I'd simply tell them that they've had ample opportunity to do so and haven't. Now you've lost faith in their intention to do right by you and you want to conclude this matter.....you want a refund. Period.



     
  27. fire&ice
    Ideal_Rock

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    by fire&ice » Jan 28, 2004

    I'm on the same page Al, they are playing games w/ Melissa. Why would a "tax break" - which absolutely is just a price adjustment - void their return policy?

    Also, I wouldn't tell them you are going to call the credit card company. I would do it *prior* to confronting them. You could always come to resolve afterwards.

    Also, I think the Jeweler's Vigilace may be a better place to contact regarding RB.

    Unfortunately, the price matching issue is the only issue at hand here (besides the return policy - we didn't see your sales receipt, etc). I could be wrong but I don't thin "proper" is a term that means *anything* regarding cut. If they said "ideal" than yes, you have an issue. But, I don't think "proper" is proper diamond lingo - thus it could mean anything they, RB, say it is.
     
  28. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Jan 28, 2004
    Actually Melissa noted that they have a chart for 'proper' cuts and that hers even fell out of their chart ranges....




    "But in the end, my diamond was not "proper" cut... it was deep, even falling out of the "proper" cut range on their RB cut chart."
     
  29. fire&ice
    Ideal_Rock

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    by fire&ice » Jan 28, 2004

    Ah, good catch.

    Then, do they guarantee their diamonds to be "proper" cut to the chart they gave you? Or do they just pride themselves? You state on 1/23 that you've had the ring less than 3 weeks - your time is running out. Hands down return the diamond. Period. I simply can not see how a price break can warrant a return policy void unless you signed away the right. Or some other issue is at work - like once the diamond is set or altered.

    With Derek's published price guarantee by RB, at the very least they are bound to give you the difference in price. A similar cut diamond (56 Table, 63.4 depth, G, VS2)is trading at about $5100.00
     
  30. melis6886
    Rough_Rock

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    by melis6886 » Feb 4, 2004
    Hello All,

    I need to make a decision today about this - would you please give me your opinions:

    1. The General Manager was able to reduce the price of my diamond from $6995 to $5561.25. This is for my current diamond 1.02, G, VS2, Table 55%, Depth 64%. Should I accept? Or should I try to reduce more & if they don't, what should I do?

    2. I was also shown this diamond as a possible replacement for my current diamond (even exchange):
    AGS0
    1.013 carats
    G / SI1 (inclusions are visible to the eye)
    crown angle: 34.0
    pavilon angle: 41.2
    Table: 57%
    Depth 60.5%

    I am assuming that both diamonds with be for the price adjustment $5561.25. Should I take this diamond for this price? Is any of this worth accepting?

    Please help - I need to make a decision today! Thanks, Guys.
     
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