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Is this the deal of a lifetime?

Discussion in 'Colored Stones' started by susiegrneyes, May 6, 2012.

  1. susiegrneyes
    Shiny_Rock

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    by susiegrneyes » May 6, 2012
    A well respected vendor, from whom I have purchased before, offered me a 0.50 (6.97 x 4.43 x 2.42) carat fancy pure pink VS2 GIA certified pear shaped stone for $5,000.00. I did some comparison shopping and a 0.47 (6.61x4.45x2.77) carat fancy pink SI1 is listed with another respected vendor for $25,000.00. Is my vendor offering up a great deal or is the other vendor grossly overpriced? The stones appear similar in color saturation. The stone in question has just one inclusion on the map, which is a cavity. No flouresence or other comments on the certificate. I have attached a picture of the stone. Please let me know your thoughts.

    natural-fancy-pink.jpg
     
  2. chel180
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by chel180 » May 6, 2012
    i know nothing about fancies but the old adage; if it looks too good to be true....then it usually is.... comes to mind.
    best of luck with it tho.
     
  3. iLander
    Ideal_Rock

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    by iLander » May 6, 2012
    Is it a NATURAL pink diamond?

    A lot of them are irradiated.

    Does it come with a GIA cert? Those cost $200, so it's reasonable to have one on a $5000 sale.
     
  4. susiegrneyes
    Shiny_Rock

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    by susiegrneyes » May 6, 2012
    Yes, it is certified as natural by the GIA.
     
  5. minmin001
    Ideal_Rock

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    by minmin001 » May 6, 2012
    should call Kenny in~
     
  6. susiegrneyes
    Shiny_Rock

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    by susiegrneyes » May 6, 2012
    Yes, I'm hoping Kenny will drop by. I haven't had much luck finding comparable sales.
     
  7. kenny
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by kenny » May 6, 2012
    Rather than the deal of a lifetime, this may be more of you get what you pay for. - and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Initially it sounds like a good deal, but determining value of FCDs is very very messy.
    There can be SO much variation of tone, hue, and saturation within one GIA color grade.

    Plus there can be hints of gray or brown that are not enough for GIA to push it into the Brownish Pink grade, but the diamond can be near that border and will be less valuable than another of the same grade with a cleaner prettier pink.
    The light performance from the cut quality can range from a brilliant fireball to dull, dead, and lifeless with windowing.
    This cannot be determined by the GIA report yet will also affect the value.

    I've seen two diamond at the SAME vendor (my favorite one) that were astonishingly similar according to the specs yet had astonishingly different prices.

    Next, we know trusting some vendor's photos can also lead to disappointment.

    Who assigned that VS2 grade, GIA or the vendor.
    IOW which GIA report did it get, the short one or the complete one?


    It is rather shallow at 54.6% so it may suffer from windowing and the color distribution looks uneven, and it seems to have an enormous bowtie.
    Those may be the reason it is the price it is.
    It may be worth exactly what they are charging.
    So if you have $5000 and just want a half carat GIA Fancy Pink and don't mind its quirks, there it is.
    Or you may want to search for a much nicer half carat GIA Fancy Pink too, but it won't be $5,000.
    Or you can prefer a very fine 0.40 Fancy Pink pear.
    Your call.

    I'd ask for more pics including one with the diamond placed between the back of fingers to evaluate the windowing.

    Was the price published on the Internet or offered in private?
    I prefer the transparency of published prices myself.

    Here's one near "comp" a 0.51 Fancy Light Purplish Pink Pear that GIA did NOT grade the clarity of but the vendor claims VS?
    http://www.langerman-diamonds.com/shop/diamond/3317/Purple-diamond-Pear-Shape-051-ct-polished_Diamond

    $18,000, and Fancy Light Pink is one grade cheaper than Fancy Pink.
    On the surface this makes your diamond look like a steal but the devil's in the details and the details are not easy to tease out when trying to price FCDs.

    Honestly I do not know if GIA grades of pure pink vs. purplish pink affects the value.
    I do know many people prefer some purple in their pinks and reds.
    Again individual stones within the same GIA grade can range from a gorgeous pink to a blah pink and it WILL affect the price dramatically.
    Unfortunately GIA's FCD grading is very imprecise.

    I realize this is not possible, but if you could lay out 100 half-carat pears that GIA graded Fancy Pink from the cheapest to the most expensive only then would you'd see where yours fits in, and know if it is a good price for the color and cut.

    Sorry I can't be more helpful.

    pppppp.jpg
     
  8. RedSpinel
    Shiny_Rock

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    by RedSpinel » May 6, 2012
    Ok how do I put this...?

    Hmmmmm ahhh Really!?! $5,000 - $25,000 for a .5ct pink diamond? Is this someone's idea of sarcasm?

    Really? $5,000 - $25,000 for a .5(that's 1/2 a carat) light pink diamond that comes in at VS2 or even SI? Are they really worth that much?
    I just cant see that...... Its not even a carat. How much is a 2ct light pink diamond of VS1 clarity and nice pink saturation worth? Is it around $20,000,000?

    I'm in the wrong business! I need to start mining pink diamonds.....
     
  9. kenny
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by kenny » May 6, 2012
    That ain't nothing.
    Have you ever priced natural Red diamonds?



    How bout real estate in Manhattan or Tokyo?
    "Worth" is established by what people will pay, supply and demand.
    Sure, I've drunk the KoolAid but if you want natural fancy colored diamonds, that's just what they cost.

    BTW, the stone the OP is considering is not "Light Pink"; it is Fancy Pink, which is two GIA color grades more expensive.



    People don't have to buy REAL natural white diamonds either, or REAL untreated colored stones.
    Clearly enough people value what is natural, beautiful and rare to support FCD prices.

    GIA Color Scale.png

    Screen shot 2012-05-06 at 2.00.58 PM.png
     
  10. cm366
    Shiny_Rock

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    by cm366 » May 6, 2012
    Hi RedSpinel.

    Yeah, As Kenny says, he's drunk the KoolAid, and is probably the best-known lover of FCDs here - but he's not wrong! This is why you see the rich and spendy purchasing pink diamonds for engagements... fancy coloured diamonds are incredibly expensive and rare. I think the two vendors recommended most often here are langerman diamonds and leibish, both of which can be found with a quick Google search, but the bottom line is a truly fine (Intense or Vivid, high clarity) pink or red diamond 1 carat or over would be the find of the year for a large commercial mine.

    Kinda puts Sapphire prices in perspective, eh?

    :D
     
  11. innerkitten
    Ideal_Rock

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    by innerkitten » May 6, 2012
    I know. You don't get a lot of bang for your buck with fancy colored diamonds.
     
  12. kenny
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by kenny » May 6, 2012
    Define "bang".
    Size ain't everything, Sugar. :naughty:

    $40,000 can acquire the following "bang" ...

    A killer 1/4 carat natural green diamond
    1.2 ct D IF Ideal cut white diamond
    4 ct H SI2 MEH-Cut white diamond
    26 ct (guess) opaque Pond-Scumish-Green diamond
    The smallest cheapest-finish Steinway grand piano if you get a veeeeery good deal
    A new Lexus RX
    A fine Persian hand knotted wool/silk, but terribly large, rug
    One year at an expensive university
    One night at the Ty Warner Penthouse Suite, Four Seasons Hotel, New York

    Frankly, the first bang is music to MY ears.
    I can't fully articulate it but for some reason I like the understated and virtually invisible "bang" of wealth concentrated in something that is discrete to the point of being unnoticeable to virtually everyone, yet I privately know to be exceedingly rare and beautiful.

    To my taste, less is more.
     
  13. susiegrneyes
    Shiny_Rock

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    by susiegrneyes » May 6, 2012
    Hi Kenny,

    Your post was helpful to provide perspective. I don't have a large budget, so to be honest I am more concerned that the stone is worth the price I would be paying. The stone is listed for $5200.00, but the vendor offered me a small discount as I am a repeat customer. The vendors photos have been very accurate in the past.

    The diamond has a complete GIA report.

    Here are the details from the report:
    Pear Modified Brilliant
    Measurements: 6.97 x 4.43 x 2.42 mm

    Carat Weight: 0.50 carat
    Color:
    Origin: Natural
    Grade: Fancy Pink
    Distribution: Even
    Clarity Grade: VS2

    Proportions:
    Depth: 54.7%
    Table: 51%
    Girdle: Thick to Extremely Thick, Faceted
    Culet: None

    Finish:
    Polish: Very Good
    Symmetry: Good
    Fluorescence: None

    I will request some more pictures as you suggest.
     
  14. LD
    Ideal_Rock

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    by LD » May 7, 2012
    You definitely need more pictures. The photo you've posted doesn't look "fancy" pink to me BUT I appreciate that it's a photo. In all honesty, if you feel that it's a good price then get it for a look (assuming that the vendor has a good returns policy). My hesitation is that the diamond looks to have quite a lot of grey, orange and brown - which as you know usually devalues pinks. Having said that, the stats say something different. Get some more photos and then perhaps get it home for a look.

    BTW it is smack on .5ct which is always a bonus!
     
  15. chrono
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by chrono » May 7, 2012
    I would be hesitant if you say the vendor's photographs have been true so far. The colour doesn't appear even but if it is, then it must have cutting issues because there is a LOT of black areas in the stone. Just a note - have you checked verified the GIA memo online or called GIA to make sure the memo isn't forged?
     
  16. susiegrneyes
    Shiny_Rock

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    by susiegrneyes » May 7, 2012
    Yes, I verified the report online. I absolutely trust this vendor. I do agree it's not the most well cut stone. I'm sure the cutter was trying to stay right at the half carat mark. In any case, I waited too long to decide and someone else snatched it up last evening.
     
  17. kenny
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by kenny » May 7, 2012
    I'm sorry it was grabbed away by someone else.
    Best to put a rock on hold before seeking PS input since there are lots of lurkers.
    Don't feel too bad since it may have been appropriately priced for what it was.

    Again, many of us here at PS have very high standards for all the many aspects of a stone and we tend to look down on stones that fall short.
    But when a stone comes along that has certain significant qualities, like a GIA half carat pink for 'only' $5k, there is nothing wrong with buying it and enjoying it, warts and all.
     
  18. LD
    Ideal_Rock

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    by LD » May 7, 2012
    I'm sorry you lost out on your pink. Imagine that it was horrible and somebody else will have to put up with it and then you may feel better! :wink2:

    This is going to make Kenny squirm but why don't you look for non-perfect pinks? For example this is a pink I bought about 3 years ago. It's 0.23ct and I paid $200 (yes, it's been checked out!) and the cut is not good BUT it's large for its size. Because it's a small diamond, you don't see it's imperfections, all you see is a pink diamond. So it's well worth keeping an eye out for these babies. They don't come up very often but when they do it's worth snatching them up!

    Diamond Pink 0.23ct.JPG
     
  19. kenny
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by kenny » May 7, 2012
    Oh LD, I'm not squirming.
    That's a loooovely diamond and a killer deal!!!!!!

    Again, my "People vary" mantra includes FCD shopping styles. :D

    I paid thousands for two FCDs that window like crazy and one has really icky inclusions but with color that is TDF.
    I am not brave enough to take risks with eBay or non GIA-graded stones.
    I stick to GIA and Leibish, which means I'm never going to stumble across an FCD that is priced much less than it's worth. Never.

    But I totally respect and admire you braver and savvier deal-seekers, and I envy your trophies.
    What you paid for your beautiful pink pear makes me want to :cry: :cry: :cry: .
     
  20. chrono
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by chrono » May 7, 2012
    Susie,
    I am sorry you lost out on the stone if your heart was really set on it. It is too late to say it now but for future stones, ask the vendor to hold the stone for a day or so, so you can ask for opinions on the stone. This way, no one can buy it from under you while you are thinking about it. A day or so isn't unreasonable.

    LD,
    That is ONE pink FCD. So pretty, and the price you paid! :eek:
     
  21. loaded
    Rough_Rock
    Trade

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    by loaded » May 7, 2012
    The stone on the left hand side alongside my name is a purplish pink Argyle 0.47 points I1 (theoretically not eye clean, although it actually is EC) and I paid the thick end of $40K for it. If you offered me $40K for it, I wouldn't take it either :) It is always about quality and demand with FCD. Colour trumps everything, I don't think you lost out massively. I am not sure you missed the deal of a lifetime, right now there is a GIA certified 47 point light pink (the one below Fancy Light Pink) on ebay.co.uk for £2350 ($4K) with offers allowed and there are more besides for sure. There also sure is a lot of rubbish out there, so be careful, you will find something.

    Paul.
     
  22. kenny
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by kenny » May 7, 2012
    Paul the pear in your avatar is spectacular.
    You said the hue is Purplish Pink, but which Tone/Saturation grade did GIA give it?
    Guessing via pics is dangerous.

    While I agree color trumps everything when determining the price/desirability/demand of an FCD I think it's important to also acknowledge that there are also a range of FCD buyers out there.
    I think buying the pear the OP showed us is perfectly fine if the buyer is educated and that is what (s)he wants.
    Not everyone can afford top color in sizes they find acceptable, and the industry is not just going to throw away the FCDs that have to be priced on the low end for their weight in order to sell them.

    Also sometimes what's more expensive is not necessarily what is more appealing to everyone.
    Often I'll find a Fancy Yellow or Fancy Intense Yellow FCDs much more desirable than the much more expensive Fancy Vivid Yellow.
    For my taste Vivid and some Intense Yellow FCDs are often harsh and brash.

    That pink in the OP's post may be a lifetime dream come true for the buyer and I don't want to disparage that, even though the stone was not my cup of tea.
     
  23. RedSpinel
    Shiny_Rock

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    by RedSpinel » May 7, 2012

    Yeah, that actually does make sense, and I too like the idea of high monetary value concentrated in a samll package that most people arent aware of. If a common thief were to mug someone wearing a 1/2ct pink diamond, after watching MTV videos of rappers with 10ct white diamonds, they would probably feel sorry for you, and let you keep it, not knowing the value of that colored diamond!

    But I am puzzled about 1 new aspect of this that you just mentioned. It had already been pointed out that a 1/2ct pink diamond will cost up to $25,000. Now I thought that pink diamonds were the 2nd most rare, and reds are the most rare. But you mentioned that a measly 1/4ct green diamond would go for $40,000!

    So, are green diamonds now more rare than pinks? Are they truly an attractive colored green?
     
  24. TristanC
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by TristanC » May 7, 2012
    I suspect greens were always more rare than pinks. Especially greens of a good uniform shade - they appear to be priced above pinks for the same size, despite the accelerated inflation that has hit pinks recently. Google the Dresden Green for an example of an unbelievable green diamond.

    I wish I had been on the market for a pink 5 years ago. But, better late than never.

    I've been looking for a round pink for 1.5 years across all online websites. To date I've found one which met my criteria - I bought it just in case I can't do better, and till now I have only seen 1 other ridiculously good one, but the prices were 6 figures and just 1 ct weight (and just fancy, not higher). So... yes. One stone in 1.5 years, and 3 stones if budget were not a concern (within reason, obviously the Martian Pink was the dream stone)

    I think for coloured stones, if you want it and you think it might be the deal of the century, and the retailer has a good return policy... you should grab it and see it in person. They vary so much, that just going on the one photo is really difficult.

    Since you didn't get it, I'm sure it was crappy! :)
     
  25. kenny
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by kenny » May 7, 2012
    Several colors are exceedingly rare, especially in nice specimens, which is why MEH specimens can be so expensive.

    Examples of Red, Orange, Violet, Green and Blue are all way way up there in price and rarity.
    The exact order of value of these hues is hard to nail down due to lack of data.

    Even if you found, say, three Fancy Intense greens of the same weight (virtually impossibe) they'd vary a great deal in cut, hue, tone, saturation and secondary hue modifiers which are too weak to bump them into GIA's Brownish Green grade, or Yellowish Green grade, or Bluish Green grade, but not to weak to alter the attractiveness and cost, even if all 3 were at the same vendor.

    You can't just instantly google up 5006 0.30 ct pure violet diamonds to compare, as you can with white diamonds.

    https://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/where-are-the-price-jumps-t174493.html

    You'll be lucky to find 1 pure Violet for sale . . . anywhere.
    There are probably under 15 PURE Reds of any size for sale right now, maybe under 10.

    But yes a quarter carat GIA Fancy Vivid Green with can easily go for $40K.
    Here's a 0.23 ct for $49K and it would cost more if it were a round, emerald cut or asscher and have more even color distribution and more eye clean than this one.
    http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/5719.htm





    The below 2.02 ct Fancy Intense green is not attractive to me at all but it costs $282,800.
    Imagine the price if it was a nicer green, or an emerald cut.

    http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/6102.htm

    Screen shot 2012-05-07 at 7.29.20 PM.png

    Screen shot 2012-05-07 at 7.44.15 PM.png

    Screen shot 2012-05-07 at 7.45.35 PM.png
     
  26. kenny
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by kenny » May 7, 2012
    Green in diamonds is the result of the rough diamond being indirect contact with radioactive material in the earth over zillions of years.
    Often the green coloration does not reach very deeply into the diamond so much of the green skin gets polished off. :cry:
    Many FCDs that earned and of GIA's nine coveted natural pure Green grades have blotchy patches of green color, yet they are still very expensive.

    I like to think my 0.26 ct Fancy Intense Green round is an attractive green with exceptionally even and color distribution which means the green must reach deeply into the diamond.
    It also happens to have superb cut for light performance, a true rarity in FCDs since they are usually cut to maximize color and weight, with little concern for light performance properties like fire, brilliance, scintillation and dispersion.
    Here's a pic of it, though I no long own those two blues in the front. :cry:



    RedSpinel, I see you registered about a week ago so . . . Here are more of pics of my green and my other kids, spread throughout this 7-pg thread.

    https://www.pricescope.com/forum/colored-stones/fancy-colored-diamond-collection-t159746.html

    222222211111111.png
     
  27. susiegrneyes
    Shiny_Rock

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    by susiegrneyes » May 8, 2012
    Thank you all for your condolences and input. On the bright side, I really didn't need to spend the money on it anyhow. I am a bargain hunter like many of the others on the board, and given the budget, I don't expect perfection. It's more of a hobby for me than an investment, but it would be fun to find the deal of a lifetime :)
     

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