Is this common when buying online?

[Wine]

I have contacted vendors regarding diamonds that I am interested in purchasing. Without seeing the diamonds, some of the vendors have pooh-poohed the stones. I have read over and over to let my eyes be the judge, but that is hard to do when some vendors won't allow that to happen.

Why would a vendor list a stone that they think is bad? I know that many stones are virtual, but can't they block them out? It is frustrating to call or email about a diamond and have this occur.

I have lurked on these boards and learned as much as I can. I realize that am not an expert, but if I see something I like and don't mind paying the fees (if any) for the vendor to call it up, I don't think I should be treated like a child who needs a parent to guide them.

I have seen some beautiful K, J, and I stones here. I have also seen some lovely SI1 and SI stones. To dismiss them out of hand seems wrong to me, particuary when the specs look good otherwise.

Is this common with most vendors? If so, maybe online buying isn't the way to go for me.

I am not the only one that has encountered this. A few months back one of my friends ended up buying her oval from a local merchant, after an internet vendor told her that the color (I) and clairity (SI2) were too low and it would look bad. He admitted that he had never seen the diamond only the certificate. My friend had a local jeweler call up the diamond. It turned out to be beautiful. Her appraiser said that she found a real firecracker.




A bit off topic: I think this forum is wonderful.

Thanks for allowing me to use it.

 

[Ellen]

Hi Wine, I''m sorry to hear you''re off to a bad start. Could you be a bit more specific? Are they dismissing them over color and clarity, or cut? And what shape are you looking at?

 

[Wine]

Date: 1/24/2008 7:41:30 AM
Author: Ellen
Hi Wine, I'm sorry to hear you're off to a bad start. Could you be a bit more specific? Are they dismissing them over color and clarity, or cut? And what shape are you looking at?

Usually color and clairity.

I am looking at emerald cuts and ovals.

I saw an emerald cut that had both excellent symmetry and polish. The measurements available seemed to be excellent using the charts found at gemappraiser.com. It was a J color and and SI2. I looked at the GIA certificate and the inclusions didn't seem that bad. I figured they might be in a spot that could be covered with the setting. I even liked the ratio. The vendor did not want to show it to me. This is just one example.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/24/2008 7:52:10 AM
Author: Wine

Date: 1/24/2008 7:41:30 AM
Author: Ellen
Hi Wine, I'm sorry to hear you're off to a bad start. Could you be a bit more specific? Are they dismissing them over color and clarity, or cut? And what shape are you looking at?

Usually color and clairity.

I am looking at emerald cuts and ovals.

I saw an emerald cut that had both excellent symmetry and polish. The measurements available seemed to be excellent using the charts found at gemappraiser.com. It was a J color and and SI2. I looked at the GIA certificate and the inclusions didn't seem that bad. I figured they might be in a spot that could be covered with the setting. I even liked the ratio. The vendor did not want to show it to me. This is just one example.

Ok, emerald cuts are hardly ever eyeclean in an SI2, usually VS and above clarity is needed as the faceting pattern and openness of an EC can show inclusions far more easily. Same with colour with an EC, some prefer to stick to higher colour grades, so this may be why your vendors have advised against the diamond. Also you can't tell much by the plotting diagram of the grading report as to eyecleanliness unfortunately. The vendors knowing all this are probably concerned that the EC in this clarity won't be eyeclean and you won't like the diamond if you buy it.

If you want SI and J colour, you may have more luck with an oval shape.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2008 7:56:44 AM
Author: Lorelei

Ok, emerald cuts are hardly ever eyeclean in an SI2, usually VS and above clarity is needed as the faceting pattern and openness of an EC can show inclusions far more easily. Same with colour with an EC, some prefer to stick to higher colour grades, so this may be why your vendors have advised against the diamond. Also you can't tell much by the plotting diagram of the grading report as to eyecleanliness unfortunately. The vendors knowing all this are probably concerned that the EC in this clarity won't be eyeclean and you won't like the diamond if you buy it.

If you want SI and J colour, you may have more luck with an oval shape.

Yes, ditto to all this.

I had a sneaky feeling an Emerald cut might be the reason. Lorelei elaborated on it quite well. If you're wanting a larger stone, and bang for your buck, go with the Oval.

 

[Wine]

Date: 1/24/2008 7:56:44 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 1/24/2008 7:52:10 AM
Author: Wine

Date: 1/24/2008 7:41:30 AM
Author: Ellen
Hi Wine, I''m sorry to hear you''re off to a bad start. Could you be a bit more specific? Are they dismissing them over color and clarity, or cut? And what shape are you looking at?

Usually color and clairity.

I am looking at emerald cuts and ovals.

I saw an emerald cut that had both excellent symmetry and polish. The measurements available seemed to be excellent using the charts found at gemappraiser.com. It was a J color and and SI2. I looked at the GIA certificate and the inclusions didn''t seem that bad. I figured they might be in a spot that could be covered with the setting. I even liked the ratio. The vendor did not want to show it to me. This is just one example.

Ok, emerald cuts are hardly ever eyeclean in an SI2, usually VS and above clarity is needed as the faceting pattern and openness of an EC can show inclusions far more easily. Same with colour with an EC, some prefer to stick to higher colour grades, so this may be why your vendors have advised against the diamond. Also you can''t tell much by the plotting diagram of the grading report as to eyecleanliness unfortunately. The vendors knowing all this are probably concerned that the EC in this clarity won''t be eyeclean and you won''t like the diamond if you buy it.

If you want SI and J colour, you may have more luck with an oval shape.

I understand that SI2 emeralds are rarely eyclean. As for the color, that is a personal choice and I don''t need a vendor to tell me what I like. If I don''t like something, I don''t purchase it. Even if I did go against my nature and purchase something I don''t like, it is my money.

Not one jeweler has asked me, what I was looking for or why. If a vendor has a problem with selling certain diamonds, they should not list them on their site. Then I won''t waste my time or theirs by asking about a diamond that they don''t want to sell.


I appreciate your insight on this (I always enjoy reading your posts). It has shown that buying online, probably isn''t for me.

 

[Ellen]

Wine, have you tried Goodoldgold? Jon is awfully good at listening to his customers, and he deals with fancies quite a bit. If you have not tried there, give him a call, tell him what''s been going on, and what you''re looking for. I think he could/would help you.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/24/2008 8:29:41 AM
Author: Ellen
Wine, have you tried Goodoldgold? Jon is awfully good at listening to his customers, and he deals with fancies quite a bit. If you have not tried there, give him a call, tell him what''s been going on, and what you''re looking for. I think he could/would help you.

She took the words right out of my mouth as usual, Wine I think this would be well worth a try.

 

[Wine]

Date: 1/24/2008 8:07:27 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/24/2008 7:56:44 AM
Author: Lorelei

Ok, emerald cuts are hardly ever eyeclean in an SI2, usually VS and above clarity is needed as the faceting pattern and openness of an EC can show inclusions far more easily. Same with colour with an EC, some prefer to stick to higher colour grades, so this may be why your vendors have advised against the diamond. Also you can''t tell much by the plotting diagram of the grading report as to eyecleanliness unfortunately. The vendors knowing all this are probably concerned that the EC in this clarity won''t be eyeclean and you won''t like the diamond if you buy it.

If you want SI and J colour, you may have more luck with an oval shape.

Yes, ditto to all this.

I had a sneaky feeling an Emerald cut might be the reason. Lorelei elaborated it it quite well. If you''re wanting a larger stone, and bang for your buck, go with the Oval.

I am pretty sure the budget I have been given would get me plenty of bang. I just don''t want a larger stone. I don''t really want one at all, however he wants everyone to know we are engaged.

If I had my way, I would get some more heels and forget about a ring.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2008 8:36:04 AM
Author: Wine


I am pretty sure the budget I have been given would get me plenty of bang. I just don''t want a larger stone. I don''t really want one at all, however he wants everyone to know we are engaged.

If I had my way, I would get some more heels and forget about a ring.

Hey, maybe you could compromise, with some diamond encrusted??

 

[Wine]

Ellen and Lorelei, I really appreciate your help. I will give GoodOldGold a call.

 

[Wine]

Date: 1/24/2008 8:38:38 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/24/2008 8:36:04 AM
Author: Wine


I am pretty sure the budget I have been given would get me plenty of bang. I just don't want a larger stone. I don't really want one at all, however he wants everyone to know we are engaged.

If I had my way, I would get some more heels and forget about a ring.

Hey, maybe you could compromise, with some diamond encrusted??

SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!! Don't make me start drooling.

I don't mind a bit of bling on my shoes. Diamond encrusted stilettos would make my day!!! I probably wouldn't wear them. I would sure be happy just to own them.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2008 8:39:12 AM
Author: Wine
Ellen and Lorelei, I really appreciate your help. I will give GoodOldGold a call.

No problem! I know his main helper does not work there now, not sure if anyone else is filling in, but ask to speak with Jon. He''s the head honcho there. And very nice.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2008 8:41:37 AM
Author: Wine

Date: 1/24/2008 8:38:38 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/24/2008 8:36:04 AM
Author: Wine


I am pretty sure the budget I have been given would get me plenty of bang. I just don''t want a larger stone. I don''t really want one at all, however he wants everyone to know we are engaged.

If I had my way, I would get some more heels and forget about a ring.

Hey, maybe you could compromise, with some diamond encrusted??

SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!! Don''t make me start drooling.

I don''t mind a bit of bling on my shoes. Diamond encrusted stilettos would make my day!!!

That''s what I was thinking....

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/24/2008 8:44:39 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/24/2008 8:41:37 AM
Author: Wine

Date: 1/24/2008 8:38:38 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/24/2008 8:36:04 AM
Author: Wine


I am pretty sure the budget I have been given would get me plenty of bang. I just don''t want a larger stone. I don''t really want one at all, however he wants everyone to know we are engaged.

If I had my way, I would get some more heels and forget about a ring.

Hey, maybe you could compromise, with some diamond encrusted??

SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!! Don''t make me start drooling.

I don''t mind a bit of bling on my shoes. Diamond encrusted stilettos would make my day!!!

That''s what I was thinking....

 

[kennyg]

I actually had somewhat of a similar experience with online vendors - if I selected a stone that wasn''t in inventory, there was a high likelihood they would recommend against it. I felt myself wondering the same thing, why list it at all if you wouldn''t recommend it? How can a shopper ever get to those stones without feeling that he/she has to push the issue?

To be fair to the vendors, possibly it is a reputation thing - if they sell you a diamond you aren''t happy with and you vocalize that dissatisfaction on Pricescope or elsewhere, it hurts their business. But again it begs the question, why list a stone at all if you wouldn'' t recommend it? And if you decide you don''t recommend a stone, do you then remove it from your list?

I ended up letting it go and ignoring any diamond online at a vendor who didn''t have it in-house. And I still chose to buy online for price reasons - I felt comfortable enough with the tools on Pricescope to purchase a stone site unseen, but with a 30 day return policy.

There was one vendor who I think was more willing to look at those stones for the shopper, USACerted Diamonds I think. I didn''t go with them because he worked best by phone and not email, and I needed to work by email to maintain surprise for my fiance. Also multiple vendors list the same stone, so you might have other options to get to the stone you want.

Hope that helps.

 

[strmrdr]

after spending money calling in a few si emeralds and all have eye visible inclusions and make the client unhappy for wasting time and money the vendors learn to avoid them.
If you dont mind eye visible inclusions then tell the vendor so.

With virtual stones they dont have control over which stones are listed.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2008 9:57:20 AM
Author: kennyg
I actually had somewhat of a similar experience with online vendors - if I selected a stone that wasn''t in inventory, there was a high likelihood they would recommend against it. I felt myself wondering the same thing, why list it at all if you wouldn''t recommend it? How can a shopper ever get to those stones without feeling that he/she has to push the issue?

To be fair to the vendors, possibly it is a reputation thing - if they sell you a diamond you aren''t happy with and you vocalize that dissatisfaction on Pricescope or elsewhere, it hurts their business. But again it begs the question, why list a stone at all if you wouldn'' t recommend it? And if you decide you don''t recommend a stone, do you then remove it from your list?

I ended up letting it go and ignoring any diamond online at a vendor who didn''t have it in-house. And I still chose to buy online for price reasons - I felt comfortable enough with the tools on Pricescope to purchase a stone site unseen, but with a 30 day return policy.

There was one vendor who I think was more willing to look at those stones for the shopper, USACerted Diamonds I think. I didn''t go with them because he worked best by phone and not email, and I needed to work by email to maintain surprise for my fiance. Also multiple vendors list the same stone, so you might have other options to get to the stone you want.

Hope that helps.

I could see doing that for rounds, but not for fancies. Many don''t have a lot in house.

As for not recommending a stone, I would imagine a lot of it might just be that this is what they do, they know way more than we do, and may see things (negative) we don''t. Just a guess.

And I imagine it would be WAY too time consuming to go through a virtual listing and try to weed out all the undesirables, especially when that list can change daily. Again, just a thought!

 

[kennyg]

So it sounds like vendors subscribe to a virtual stone list, i.e. they don''t pick and choose which stones to list? If so that explains it better but for first time buyers the result is still frustrating. It is probably a tough call for a vendor - either frustrate a group of customers who are expecting good stones and get bad ones, or frustrate a group of customers who would actually make the purchase. If I had to guess I''d say the second group of customers is smaller.

Regardless, my empathy is still for the original poster.

 

[solange]

I bought an I SI2 from Whiteflash. I worked with Lesley. I was looking for a large stone and she rejected several stones I had seen on the virtual list. These are stones that the vendor has not seen. If the stone sounds promising they will call the dealer and ask for more information about the stone.

Usually the dealer will be honest with the vendor with whom they do a great deal of business. The vendor will not send for a stone unless it sounds promising.

I waited some time before Lesley located a stone, not in their inventory, that she felt was worth sending for after getting and evaluation from the dealer. The agreement was that if the stone did not meet Whiteflash''s standards, they wouod send it back and I was under no obligation.

I woaited and wound up with a gorgeous stone that came in well below my budget. I had it shipped to an appraiser where I could see it and he concurred that it was a gorgeous stone at a great price.

Most vendors who send for stones they have not seen will screen them before they agree to send for them. This is in your best interest. They are in business to sell stones. I am sure that GOG and any of the other highly regarded Pricescope vendors will work the same way. They are not in business to discourage people from buying.

I would not be discouraged if a vendor tells you honestly that a virtual stone is not for you.

 

[JohnQuixote]

It may be helpful to know what the sellers are facing.

Most suppliers are still old-school. Those who are able provide us with a basic list of stats. We host the complete list...the great, the good and the not so good...and the stats you see are all we are provided with. For example, GIA has had a cut grade for rounds for two years now but this grade is still not being provided in many basic datastreams, much less crown/pavilion angles. This means when a client is considering even a basic round brilliant from a supplier we must request a fax or scan of the grading report before we can determine whether the diamond has any potential at all...and that's still not enough information to back it with guarantees.

Fancies are harder. Other posters have spoken about color/clarity trends in emeralds. Of course we all acknowledge that those guidelines are not absolute but any business will be mindful of statistics when operating 'blind'. Example: Though you may be committed to a nicely performing SI emerald most people will decline it if the inclusions are more evident than they anticipated. That is not to say we won't source such a stone, but you would have to convince us that you're "a-ok" rolling that way.

And of course, with regard to cut - which is the focus of sellers here - only table/depth are provided so the only way to know its quality is to bring the diamond in for analysis.

Knowing this you might be able to see how our expectations for cut (which we require to back the diamond with a lifetime trade-up policy) and trends of color/clarity in some shapes (and the way consumers react to them) result in our treading lightly with certain combinations. This is not to say we won't research them but, again, all we know is our experience... Most consumers are first-timers at this and we try to filter the list for them. With that said, if you are confident and guarantee that X clarity in Y shape is perfectly fine - no matter what - that will open some cautionary doors I imagine.

As mentioned above, a seller can develop a good enough relationship with some suppliers that they become accustomed to the standards we are seeking. It's an age-old system of networking and it works as long as X diamond is with Y or Z supplier. We have a savvy few who are getting good at sending only stones we will keep - and another few with whom we no longer work because we found a gap between what they told us on the phone and what came to us.

I do want to take a moment to reinforce that I consider this very issue - on the whole - one of consumer protection. It is a huge positive compared to companies that will drop-ship any diamond to you from their suppliers without doing a professional gemological evaluation on your behalf. You will find such sellers do not offer a lifetime trade-up...and for good reason...since they are willing to drop-ship you literally anything as long as you drop your money.

 

[Ellen]

Thanks for the "in the know" post John.

 

[kennyg]

Really appreciate the seller perspective.

It is a good point that there are different vendors for different types of customers. Wine - possibly you and I have the same mentality - I ended up purchasing at Blue Nile. Everything listed on their site is for sale and they don't offer other service - but for me all I needed was the GIA/AGS certificate, the HCA tool, Dave Atlas' cut grader, and the 30 day return policy. I paid for a full appraisal on the first stone and actually returned it because I didn't like the I color and traded up to a G stone. For the second stone I was comfortable enough knowing that Blue Nile accurately represents what it sells that I didn't need a second full appraisal.

It cost me some of my own time and I adjusted my propsal date because of it, but I prefered my own analysis over the vendor's. Even if the vendor had a stellar reputation, I like to do my own research without any possibility of bias and I've always been that way.


*edit* - the point that there are different vendors for different types of customers was actually my take-away from the full discussion, i.e. not intended to attribute that point to John. From a consumer prespective I think it's just different styles as well - my fiance loved all the attention we got at B&M stores when looking for e-rings, it was fun. But I kept thinking "skip the fluff, show me the numbers and then leave us be". It's one of many ways we actually compliment each other well.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2008 12:06:22 PM
Author: kennyg
Really appreciate the seller perspective.

It is a good point that there are different vendors for different types of customers. Wine - possibly you and I have the same mentality - I ended up purchasing at Blue Nile. Everything listed on their site is for sale and they don''t offer other service - but for me all I needed was the GIA/AGS certificate, the HCA tool, Dave Atlas'' cut grader, and the 30 day return policy. I paid for a full appraisal on the first stone and actually returned it because I didn''t like the I color and traded up to a G stone. For the second stone I was comfortable enough knowing that Blue Nile accurately represents what it sells that I didn''t need a second full appraisal.

It cost me some of my own time and I adjusted my propsal date because of it, but I prefered my own analysis over the vendor''s. Even if the vendor had a stellar reputation, I like to do my own research without any possibility of bias and I''ve always been that way.

We''re talking a round here (what you bought). They''re a lot easier to learn about, and a lot easier to buy sight unseen. With fancies, they really need eyes looking at them, experienced ones. That''s where a good vendor that really works for you comes into play. They can be the first pair of eyes/weeding tool, to get you to a point where you have a stone with real potential.

Not meaning to pick on you, but I really do think most are better off buying fancies from places that are more hands on, have more technology, more info, more experience.

 

[kennyg]

Ellen - you''re right, I''m talking about my experience with Round Brilliants. I''ve never actually shopped for a fancy. Also I have thick skin, it''s ok to "pick" if my understanding isn''t correct That education is one of the reasons I''m still posting on Pricescope a month after our proposal!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2008 12:23:57 PM
Author: kennyg
Ellen - you''re right, I''m talking about my experience with Round Brilliants. I''ve never actually shopped for a fancy. Also I have thick skin, it''s ok to ''pick'' if my understanding isn''t correct That education is one of the reasons I''m still posting on Pricescope a month after our proposal!

lol No picking, promise.

Trust me, fancies are an entirely different animule.

Tough, especially to find nice ones.


And good for you for sticking around!

 

[Wine]

Date: 1/24/2008 10:07:54 AM
Author: strmrdr
after spending money calling in a few si emeralds and all have eye visible inclusions and make the client unhappy for wasting time and money the vendors learn to avoid them.
If you dont mind eye visible inclusions then tell the vendor so.

With virtual stones they dont have control over which stones are listed.

I have been very clear with what is acceptable to me.

Vendors must have some control over which virtual stones show up on their site, because some vendors do not list certain stones. For example: Angara does not list stones below an "I" color. Maybe some vendors exercise more control over their websites than others.

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

Cut is the most important one of the 4 C''s, although most B&M sellers will tell you it''s the color and clarity. That is why I would stick with a vendor like GoodOldGold.com or NiceIce.com. They weed out the losers, but also offer excellently cut lower color and clarity diamonds to fit many budgets. I would rather have a beautifully cut I/SI2 diamond than a poorly cut D/VVS1 any day.

 

[san diego searcher]

My experience was totally different. Almost all the local B&M dealers I talked to insisted that color was most important for diamond earrings. I wanted to go down in color and get larger stones that were well cut. WF was happy to help me. I picked out several stones and they rejected two of them. They did end up selling me diamonds that they got from an outside vendor and did it quite happily.

 

[sparxs111]

exceldiamonds brings in stones for free to look at them first before the customer buys them. They will also send pics of them stones when they do arrive