Is my Leo Diamond ring going to be a good value???? Please Help

[jamiehoover]

Hello,

I was previously engaged and purchased a ring from Kay''s for 3600 dollars. It was a 1.23CT, Color F, Clarity I(2) stone. I am upgrading for my new future fiancee and I need to spend 7200 total in order to get the full 3600 value for my full ring. The ring that I am interested in, and want an opinion on the pricing and if its a nice diamond for the buck, is a 1.13 CT, Color H, Clarity SI2 for 6500. With the lifetime insurance and tax, the total is 7400. I know that there are many factors that can impact the ring, but any general idea would help. The ring rates in the "very high" category on the Leo certificate. I know that I am dropping in size, the lady at Kay''s says that the ring can only be sold at 1 CT, unless its 1.15CT, so its a deal, is this true? If not, working down the price doesnt help me because I need to spend around 7000. Should I look for a bigger Leo? Thank you, this is very stressful to me, (biggest purchase of my life) and any help would be great,

thanks

Jamie

 

[sna77]

I''m not sure what a Leo is... but I know you need the stats on the diamonds in order to determine if the stone is nice... Start by asking for GIA only certified stones and take it from there...

 

[jamiehoover]

It is a "Leo Diamond". It is certified through IGI and additionally has a "GemEx" report.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 5/7/2008 12:57:51 PM
Author: jamiehoover
It is a ''Leo Diamond''. It is certified through IGI and additionally has a ''GemEx'' report.

Unfortunately IGI certificates are basically worthless...do you have the specs listed on the report?

 

[sna77]

Do you have to buy from Kay Jewlers? $7k will get you a nice stone from somewhere else... Turn that old one into a pendant for the wedding gift.

 

[sna77]

Did''nt know what a Leo was... Just googled it and got this:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/leo-diamond.17093/

 

[Ellen]

I would really like to see you spend your money on something a bit better. Many vendors carry great stones, and have upgrade policies if that''s a consideration.

Here''s a great one, if eyeclean, for 6134.00 bankwire. Just an example, there''s many more from several vendors.

http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/3357/

 

[jamiehoover]

I have additonal info:

Shape: Round
Cut: Brilliant
measurements: 6.68-6.71 x 4.12mm
Polish: Good
Sym: Very Good
Color: H
CT. 1.13

 

[jamiehoover]

I have asked at two other jewelry stores, Zales and a local store, and neither was willing match Kay''s upgrade policy. I really thought that I should get more "bang for my buck" by doubling the price, but I temper that by saying that the Gemex report grades the ring as very high in all three categories (fire,etc) and the extra facets made me consider that it was a better deal even though Im slightly decreasing my ring size. I am up in the air on this one!

 

[whatmeworry]

I'm sorry but that lady telling you that a 1.13 can only be sold as a 1 carat is lying to you, to make it seem like you are getting a good deal, but you're not.

If you are set on a Leo first read this review of a Leo by a respected appraiser. Then try to get the biggest Leo you can and bargain hard to get the price down. You could probably bargain down that 1.13 by a good amount. That sales lady is not giving you a bargain at all. Just the opposite.

 

[mercoledi]

So you're going from a 1.23 F I2 to a 1.13 H SI2?

That's a whole lot of money for a drop in size and color and only a modest increase in clarity. Personally, I'd pass. Are you spending $7400 out of pocket, or 3800? If you're locked into buying at Kay's, at the very least make them bring in a few stones in your price range. This does not sound like a good deal.

For a little more out of pocket you could get this ideal cut sparkler. Imagine what $7400 would get you.

 

[jamiehoover]

Im in for 3600 only. I have a 3600 store credit, so my bussiness apparently has to go there. Thanks for the helpful post, any suggestions about how to go about bargaining up for a bigger ring for the money? I am locked in at spending 7200 total for the ring. Additonally, would telling the Kay''s lady that I talked with knowledgable folks on here be a good idea?

 

[sna77]

Date: 5/7/2008 1:37:10 PM
Author: jamiehoover
Im in for 3600 only. I have a 3600 store credit, so my bussiness apparently has to go there. Thanks for the helpful post, any suggestions about how to go about bargaining up for a bigger ring for the money? I am locked in at spending 7200 total for the ring. Additonally, would telling the Kay''s lady that I talked with knowledgable folks on here be a good idea?

I like my idea of getting a stone from somewher here for about $3600 thats nicer than a $7k stone at Kay... and then turning the old ring into a pendant... (cheap $$ to do so)

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 5/7/2008 1:38:23 PM
Author: sna77

Date: 5/7/2008 1:37:10 PM

Author: jamiehoover

Im in for 3600 only. I have a 3600 store credit, so my bussiness apparently has to go there. Thanks for the helpful post, any suggestions about how to go about bargaining up for a bigger ring for the money? I am locked in at spending 7200 total for the ring. Additonally, would telling the Kay''s lady that I talked with knowledgable folks on here be a good idea?

I like my idea of getting a stone from somewher here for about $3600 thats nicer than a $7k stone at Kay... and then turning the old ring into a pendant... (cheap $$ to do so)

Agreed...that is probably what I would do.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 5/7/2008 1:28:03 PM
Author: mercoledi
So you''re going from a 1.23 F I2 to a 1.13 H SI2?

According to the IGI cert, it''s an I, not an H.

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 5/7/2008 1:37:10 PM
Author: jamiehoover
Im in for 3600 only. I have a 3600 store credit, so my bussiness apparently has to go there. Thanks for the helpful post, any suggestions about how to go about bargaining up for a bigger ring for the money? I am locked in at spending 7200 total for the ring. Additonally, would telling the Kay''s lady that I talked with knowledgable folks on here be a good idea?

Same rules as car shopping. Bargain hard. Settle on the price of the new diamond first. Then let them know you are trading in an old ring for credit. Let them know you are shopping around, because you should be. If they aren''t nice, your business really does not have to go there. Good luck!

 

[mercoledi]

Well, I was suggesting that you take your credit as a loss and find a diamond elsewhere, but if Kay''s is where you want to go, do your best to educate yourself, learn what specs will put a diamond in the "ideal" range, and ask a lot of questions. Generally the salespeople at Kay''s aren''t well educated about diamonds. Ask that they let you see several in your price range, preferably in multiple lighting conditions and under a microscope/loupe and let your eyes decide.

Kay''s has you at a disadvantage two ways, one, they aren''t well educated so they cannot educate you and two, they used IGI graded diamonds and IGI is not a strict grader, so and IGI I s1I may appraise as lower clarity, lower color, or both. It makes it harder to know what you''re getting.

 

[jamiehoover]

Thank you for the idea. I would sell it instead if I could, but I don''t really want to keep it. I was from an old fiancee and I would not feel right passing it on to my future wife, even as a pendant. From my research thus far, I would not be able to get the quality of ring for 3600 that I would for my upgrade... am I wrong here?

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 5/7/2008 1:48:04 PM
Author: jamiehoover
Thank you for the idea. I would sell it instead if I could, but I don't really want to keep it. I was from an old fiancee and I would not feel right passing it on to my future wife, even as a pendant. From my research thus far, I would not be able to get the quality of ring for 3600 that I would for my upgrade... am I wrong here?

Depends on what you define as quality. It is important to remember that IGI isn't reliable. So that I/SI2 diamond that you are paying for might not actually be any better than the one you currently have! They are known for being a few grades off, and usually not in the way you want.

As for the cut, we don't really have enough information to tell you if it is an ideal cut. And THAT is where the sparkle really happens. For all of US, the cut is the thing that really defines quality, and we just don't know enough about your diamond to know if it is a quality cut.

I think what we are all saying is that we'd rather have something smaller and of definitive higher quality. Period.

 

[Independent Gal]

I have to agree with these ladies. It sounds to me like you WAAAAY overpaid for junk the first time, and now they're trying to make you pay THEM an extra $3600 to buy smaller junk. While you give them the bigger junk back.

That sounds like a TOTAL scam. Rip-off city.

Sell the diamond you have, even if you have to take a loss. You can probably get around $1500, on ebay or on craigslist or something. And the fact is, the 'real' value of the stone she's trying to sell you is probably way less than the $5000 you would functionally be paying.

Think about it: if you are way overpaying for this new stone, you are not really getting a credit of $3800. See? So there really is no incentive to shop at Kay's again. No matter what the price tag says.

Then take the $5K and get your woman a BEAUTIFUL quality diamond.

NO JUNK!

 

[pichuchy21]

Just my 2 cents...my first engagement ring was a LEO and after doing some research and learning from the knowledgable people on here my fiancee returned it during the 90 day return period and we ended up buying from Whiteflash and I love my new ring! The LEO that I had was a 1carat, but it didn''t look like a 1 carat it looked like a .90. It faced up pretty small reason being because LEO diamonds are cut very deep. So yes it was a 1ct, but it looked smaller because a lot of the weight was on the bottom. If I were you I would try to sell this diamond somewhere else and have the people on the forum help you find a nice stone from one of the online vendors. Good Luck!

 

[rainydaze]

jamie - my impression of Kay Jewelers is that they do not generally offer quality diamonds, rather they sell marketing. i am sure the Leo diamond has merits when compared to their other diamond offerings, and quite possibly there are some good ones in the bunch. however, my understanding is that the Leo cut was invented by Kay, graded by Kay (what does ''very high'' mean? Kay created that, not an unbiased gem grading lab, so really you can''t put any stock in that), sold exclusively by Kay, and thus the only ''experts'' telling you it is the best diamond out there are the Kay marketing executives. Kay can say whatever they want about their diamonds, and naturally they want you to believe it is the best diamond out there so you will buy from them. and because the general population only has marketing to go by, the perception is that there really is something special there. try to find out WHY it is as special as it is marketed to be, and you might run into a lack of response.

if you do your research, i think you will find you can do better. even though you would be getting a credit towards a new diamond from Kay, the end price you will have paid is probably MUCH higher for it than you would pay if you were starting from scratch from true-blue vendors such as GOG, Pearlman''s, ERD, Whiteflash, etc....

if you still wish to use their upgrade policy and keep your purchase with them, my recommendation is that you spend some serious time here on PS doing research - finding out from the many UNbiased sources what goes into a genuinely ideal cut and what parameters bring about the best performance. Kay does not provide you with enough information about their cut, even on the Leo, for you to make that determination (there is more to it than color, clarity, THEIR assessment of the cut grade, and overall size measurements). that alone gives me pause to buy from them, however if you push them and really know what you are looking for, and you are patient, maybe you can find one that you can be mind-clean is closer to being worth the money you will be giving them. also, take it to an INDEPENDENT appraiser (an appraiser NOT affiliated with their store or any store) - this person can give you an unbiased, truly useful evaluation of the diamond, its performance, and its value.

there are two options for you as i see it:

1) you have $3000 to spend on a new ring. you can use your original ring to trade up at Kay to a Leo diamond and you will end up with one larger diamond. you will not, however, be assured of the quality of the cut, color, or clarity as these are all at the discretion of Kay, who are biased towards making the sale. chances are, the same diamond purchased elsewhere from scratch would cost significantly less than what you will have finally ended up paying. but if you are determined to use the trade, you can increase your probability by learning as much as you can about cut and using an independent appraiser to get the best possible diamond from them (and to be sure of the color and clarity, which is likely to be a grade or more lower than Kay''s people have determined).

2) you have $3000 to spend on a new ring. you can have your original ring reset into a pendent, sell it privately, or try to consign it. you can take the 3k you have and spend it on a smaller diamond from a PS vendor or, if you can find one, a private REPUTABLE jeweler who can offer you AGS or GIA stones and get something GENUINELY spectacular and worth the money you are spending. you will then have two smaller diamonds, one assuredly the best you can get and also the best value. also, you can start over with a vendor/jeweler who offers a 100% upgrade/trade-in policy - that doesn''t require you to spend double what you originally paid - so that you can eventually get to the larger stone (which IMO has a much higher likelihood of being 10x prettier than the Leo).

either way, you take a loss (unless somehow you did get a great diamond the first time around and go with option 2. then you have 2 great diamonds, though you probably overpaid for *one* of them.

). personally i would rather option 2 where i at least have one great diamond rather than option 1 where i have a larger diamond, but not as pretty and not worth the price i paid for it.

sorry that is so longwinded. i hope it makes some sense! bottomline, you need to spend some time here doing some research about what goes into an ideal cut, what makes for great light performance, and the different Gem labs (GIA, AGS, EGL, IGI) and their value as a consumer resource. then you might know if you feel comfortable giving more of your money to Kay or cut your losses and go elsewhere.

 

[Cleo]

I think you've had some pretty sound advice from the other girls.

Personally, my preference would be to sell the old ring.. you'll probably get around half what you paid for it and to put that towards a diamond from a different vendor and get an absolutely top-notch cut.

I found you this one: http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/3755/

It's 0.8cts G SI1 and is a Hearts and Arrows stone... a real beauty at $3408 bankwire price. You could have this set in a simple, solitaire setting (for very litte extra) and it would be absolutely stunning.

Alternatively, there's this one: http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-684405.htm
0.81ct H SI2 which is one of the beautiful Whiteflash A Cut Above range. This is $2860 before Pricescope discound and would leave you a bit more in your budget for a more expensive setting.

Check with the vendors that the diamonds are eyeclean to your standards (ie from what distance and which angles).

x x x

PS I forgot to mention that you will get a lifetime upgrade policy with these vendors: so if you ever wanted to trade up for a bigger diamond in future you can do so with no problems!

 

[jamiehoover]

Rainy Daze,

thank you so much for the informative response, and to all others too!



I just went back to Kay''s and have relatively good news, based on the forum''s help. Please let me know how much "better" off I am now. I went in, more informed, and said what I was looking for. Before, when I went in, (as another poster said I shouldnt have done, I told them it was a trade first thing), I reapproached Kay''s , with a different saleman today, and he said that he would do his best for me, after I said that Im informed and talking to experts So, he offered me more money for the rings trade, instead of 3600, up to 4500 (so progress right???) Additionally, after talking with you all, I didnt feel comfortable downsizing in rings, so Im scratching the Leo idea. Because based on what you all said, if I get it looked at by an outside independent apprasier, the Leo might not even be all that great, right? So, I am currently looking at a ring priced at 11000. He said he would give me 4500 in trade. He also scratched the price down from 11000 to 9500. So, this leaves me at a payment price, if I choose to buy, of around 5500 after taxes, white gold ring, and warranty. After he said the 5500 price, I said that I am still not comfortable and it would need to be round the 3600 that I wanted to pay. He then said that he would be giving me calls if anything works out with price reduction (they are having a couple of show and sales dates within the next month. So, if I was able to get the ring for say 4000, with 4000 into it already, so a total of 8000, for a ring marked at 11000, it seems like a good idea AT FACE VALUE, is this correct?

Here are some ring specs that I wrote down, does this seem like a nice ring for the price?

Round Brilliant
1.50 CT
Color I
Clarity SI (2)
Polish/Symmetry Very good each
measurements 7.28-7.37 x 4.46 mm


thanks and anything would be helpful

 

[krisvrn]

i still do not think you are getting a good deal. he upped the price of the original ring so that you will have to spend more on the ring you are planning to buy. I would just try to sell the Kay''s ring and then start fresh. remember the ring you have originally is a I2 which is very low quality. You can look at some online vendors and a I2 1 ct is usually not sold at most vendors or if they are-- it would be lower priced.

 

[sna77]

dude, have you ever bought a car and traded in an old one? You negotiate the price of the new car frist, then what they give you for the trade. They''re just playing with numbers to make thigns seem to look like a better deal.

You are ignoring the facts:

1. IGI certificates are worthless. Tell them you won''t even look at a stone unless its GIA certed.
2. You don''t have enough of the measurements for people to make an informed decision on whether or not the stone you are looking at is good.
3. CUT is the most important thing you should be looking at. Having Kay tell you "its really great" just isn''t cutting it (no pun intended).

If you REALLY, want to buy from Kay, get some scans of some GIA certifed stones for the experts here to look at and make a recomendation for you.

 

[rainydaze]

you can''t judge the quality or value of a diamond based upon its price or the specs Kay''s gives you.

you need specific information about the cut (see tutorials) such as pavillion angle, crown angle, etc. and, IMO, an appraisal by an independent appraiser (when the diamond has not been graded by AGS or GIA and you are fairly new to understanding the cut of a diamond).

sounds to me like they are playing the price game with you and all they have done is to get more money out of you. upping the price doesn''t make for a better diamond - what information did they provide to you now that they know you are more informed to give you confidence in what they are trying to sell you?

 

[mercoledi]

If you must buy from Kay''s, and I still believe you''d be better off consigning it and spending your hard-earned money on a higher quality diamond, try it this way.

1. Tell them you''re looking for a stone in the 1-1.5 ct range
2. Make them show you several, Leo and non, and judge for yourself which look better. If possible take the stones out of the fancy lighting in the store into an area with normal lighting and re-evaluate them. You may be surprised what a difference this makes in how the stone looks.
3. Make them show you the inclusions.
4. Make them give you copies of any certification/lab reports available on your two or three favorite stones.

If after all of that they have a diamond that appeals to you, get into price. If possible it might be helpful to you to go to a high-end jeweler and get an idea of what an ideal or near-ideal stone looks like. A well cut stone will always look larger than a poorly cut stone because it returns more light.

But honestly, you''d be better off using your 4k on a stone you can rely on and a vendor with a much better trade-in policy. Maybe something like this or this.

 

[purrfectpear]

Sell your ring on Craigslist or eBay. You''ll probably get between $1000-$1500 for a 1.23 unless it really looks like drek. Take that plus the $4000 you were willing to spend and get a really good stone. Even if you don''t go for ideal specs you can still get a darn good diamond H SI1 1.20 to 1.30 for under $5500.

Stop dealing with Kay''s they''re not going to have anything that actually worth the money they ask, trade in or not.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

We''re sincerely trying to save you from getting a bad diamond. An I SI2 certified by IGI is probably J or K and I1 at best if graded by GIA. So it''s really not a very good deal. Cut is so important to the beauty of the stone, and you have not given us all the measurements needed to even tell about the cut. Most mall chain stores sell poor quality diamonds, other than a few like Tiffany, etc., in more upscale malls. Just sell the first ring and start over. This girl is worth getting a quality stone for, I''m sure you would agree!