shape
carat
color
clarity

Is it possible to fake a laser inscription?

Funkywunky

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Messages
9
Hi,

A few months ago, i bought a Brian Gavin Black 1.39 C, g, vs1 diamond, with a an AGS laser inscription.

I had it set by a (renowned) jeweler in Antwerp. Afterwards, I had the ring resized a little (by the same jeweler). After the resizing, I keep having the feeling they replaced the diamond with another because it just doesn't look the same anymore. It's still a perfect hearts and arrows diamond but it's just 'different'; the arrows on the table view do not look 'black' anymore and it's much harder to see them then before...

I had the laser inscription checked and it is exactly the same. However, the jeweler i'm talking about is a huge name (in Antwerp) and I practically know for sure he must have the equipement to do it.

So is there a (quick) way to find out if i'm scammed?
 

bmfang

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Messages
1,851
Hi,

A few months ago, i bought a Brian Gavin Black 1.39 C, g, vs1 diamond, with a an AGS laser inscription.

I had it set by a (renowned) jeweler in Antwerp. Afterwards, I had the ring resized a little (by the same jeweler). After the resizing, I keep having the feeling they replaced the diamond with another because it just doesn't look the same anymore. It's still a perfect hearts and arrows diamond but it's just 'different'; the arrows on the table view do not look 'black' anymore and it's much harder to see them then before...

I had the laser inscription checked and it is exactly the same. However, the jeweler i'm talking about is a huge name (in Antwerp) and I practically know for sure he must have the equipement to do it.

So is there a (quick) way to find out if i'm scammed?

The easiest way would be to take the ring to an appraiser who could unmount the stone and then examine it to see if the inclusions in the stone match up with the grading report. If you still want clarity, you could always re-send it back to AGS (or take it to a jeweller) who has Sarine scanning equipment who can check that the stone physically matches up with the proportions that AGS put on the original grading report.
 

bmfang

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Messages
1,851
Further to what I have said above, if what comes back from an appraiser as well as a lab differs substantially from the proportions that are on your original AGS report, I think at that point, you may have a case against the jeweller.
 

TreeScientist

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 16, 2018
Messages
1,256
The easiest way would be to take the ring to an appraiser who could unmount the stone and then examine it to see if the inclusions in the stone match up with the grading report. If you still want clarity, you could always re-send it back to AGS (or take it to a jeweller) who has Sarine scanning equipment who can check that the stone physically matches up with the proportions that AGS put on the original grading report.

Yep, any appraiser should be able to check it for you. At VS1, there should be enough inclusions in the diamond to be able to match the stone with the inclusion plot.

If the diamond looks different, are you sure it isn't just dirty? Sometimes during resizing, a jeweler will apply a heat shield goo/clay to stones to prevent them from being damaged by the torch (more common for use with colored gems, but jewelers sometimes use it for diamonds too if they think the stone may get very hot during the repair). If the jeweler doesn't adequately clean the diamond after finishing the work, then a thin film of this goo may be left on the stone, especially on the pavilion. This can alter the brilliance of a diamond.

A qualified jeweler/appraiser should be able to check on both of these possibilities. First, they can examine the stone to insure it is the original. And if it is the original, they can check for any gunk or grime on the surface and clean it for you with a combination of a hot water ultrasonic bath and steam cleaner.
 

foxinsox

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
4,061
I would also ask yourself, is it realistic that a renowned jeweller would risk their reputation over a fairly small diamond?
If they handle a large volume of diamonds, one single fairly common colour/size/clarity (albeit very nicely cut) diamond could not be worth ruining your business for.
Use a loupe and find your inclusions and compare them to your AGS grading report. It’s very very unlikely that they would switch your stone out.
 

gm89uk

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,491
Unlikely to have switched diamond. Perfect H&A are difficult to come by and wouldn't be the choice of someone wanting to switch to a lower quality diamond. I'd first get it professionally cleaned.
 

Funkywunky

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Messages
9
Thank you for your advices and good points. They are quite reassuring and relieving :). I already cleaned it myself (toothbrush, detergent and baking soda) but i'm going to have it cleaned professionaly as suggested.

Just out of interest: what things should I look for on the laser inscription to be sure it's not fake?
 

Stephan

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
2,917
Forget the inscription, it's better to look at the diamond.
The inclusion in the table of this 104097954046 AGS should be easy to see with a 10x loupe.
Do you have a loupe?
 

bmfang

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Messages
1,851
Forget the inscription, it's better to look at the diamond.
The inclusion in the table of this 104097954046 AGS should be easy to see with a 10x loupe.
Do you have a loupe?

I agree with @Stephan on this. Zooming into the video on the listing for your BG Black, I can definitely see the crystal (the cloud isn’t visible to my eyes). Under a 10x loupe, you or an appraiser should be able to locate that crystal inclusion.
 

TreeScientist

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 16, 2018
Messages
1,256
Thank you for your advices and good points. They are quite reassuring and relieving :). I already cleaned it myself (toothbrush, detergent and baking soda) but i'm going to have it cleaned professionaly as suggested.

Just out of interest: what things should I look for on the laser inscription to be sure it's not fake?

Toothbrush and soapy water is enough for general cleaning, but it is nowhere close to being enough for heat shield goo or fluxing agents. From a few other threads here on PS that have documented this very same issue (diamond looked different, turned out to be crud left over from setting/repair work process) some of these things can be a major PITA to remove. Definitely a professional cleaning is the next step.

Another good point brought up by @foxinsox. Think about this situation logically. Why would a jeweler go through the hassle of procuring a diamond of the exact same dimensions with perfect H&A symmetry (hard to come by as it is, and not cheap) and go through the hassle of faking an AGS laser inscription (not impossible, but pretty difficult), and also put their long-standing reputation on the line, all to switch for a diamond that may be worth $500 more to them over the stone they switched it for at wholesale prices? (If even that much. All H&A diamonds of similar carat/color/clarity are going to be more or less the same price at the wholesale cost level, which is what jewelers pay)

I don't see a logical jeweler making this decision...
 

rockysalamander

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
5,105
BG Black also have "Brian Gavin Black" in a distinctive script in front of the inscription. Look for that.

Images taken from current inventory, not your stone, but it shows the inscription.

upload_2018-12-26_6-5-4.png
 

bmfang

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Messages
1,851
Toothbrush and soapy water is enough for general cleaning, but it is nowhere close to being enough for heat shield goo or fluxing agents. From a few other threads here on PS that have documented this very same issue (diamond looked different, turned out to be crud left over from setting/repair work process) some of these things can be a major PITA to remove. Definitely a professional cleaning is the next step.

Another good point brought up by @foxinsox and @bmfang . Think about this situation logically. Why would a jeweler go through the hassle of procuring a diamond of the exact same dimensions with perfect H&A symmetry (hard to come by as it is, and not cheap) and go through the hassle of faking an AGS laser inscription (not impossible, but pretty difficult), and also put their long-standing reputation on the line, all to switch for a diamond that may be worth maybe $500 more to them over the stone they switched it for at wholesale prices? (If even that much. All H&A diamonds of similar carat/color/clarity are going to be more or less the same price at the wholesale cost level, which is what jewelers pay)

I don't see a logical jeweler making this decision...

BG stones also have their logo engraved on the stone. That to me is harder to replicate than just an inscription of the report number.

As @foxinsox and @TreeScientist have said, a large retail jeweller doing this once is like committing harakiri. Retail jewellery is very much a word-of-mouth referral type of business. If they were so stupid to do such a thing with your stone, it would result in major loss of business for them if word got out. The reputational risk alone is enough to stop them from doing such a thing.
 

Funkywunky

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Messages
9
You all make very good, rational points. I think the rational thinking left me a bit and when emotions heat up... you can't stop thinking about it. As said, i'm going to have it cleaned professionally and hope it will help.

And @Stephan ; nice find :) I'm going to try and find the inclusion this evening :)
 

bmfang

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Messages
1,851
BG Black also have "Brian Gavin Black" in a distinctive script in front of the inscription. Look for that.

Images taken from current inventory, not your stone, but it shows the inscription.

upload_2018-12-26_6-5-4.png

I think all the BGD stones in whatever collection have that signature BG logo preceding the AGS report number in the inscription. I can see the BG Blue one on my wife’s solitaire and I can just barely make out the standard BG logo in the 2x0.33ct stones in my wife’s martini studs (at both 10x and 20x magnification, though the depth of field with my 20x triplet loupe is very very very shallow compared with my 10x GemOro/Sy Kessler loupe).
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
8,228
@Funkywunky - do you live in Antwerp?

I'm not sure if there are any PS-recommended appraisers in Antwerp, but Crafted By Infinity are based there.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
9,150
Is it POSSIBLE? Sure. Is it more than fantastically unlikely? No.

Why not?

#1 it’s difficult and requires an expensive and exotic tool.

#2 It’s seriously illegal and will not only set off the ire of you but also that of BGD and AGSL, both of whom would be happy to send a team of lawyers to protect THEIR reputations, along with your money. It’s evidence that lasts forever. It’s literally carved in stone.

#3 There’s not significant money in it. Swapping a 1.39/G/VS1 for a slightly different one wouldn’t pay to justify the above risks or even the direct costs. Swapping it for something that’s substantially different, say a non-diamond, a synthetic, a crappy cut, or an I-1/K, would be easy to spot for other reasons.

#4 Matching a stone to the report is usually pretty easy without using the inscription. That's just a backup. Aside from inclusions, there are a bunch of dimensions that can be used as well as fluorescence and other 'minor' details. Gemprint is used for exactly this. It's not like you're asking about an accidental stone switch on the setters bench. This would be deliberate, criminal, counterfeiting, an activity that's very unlikely from any jeweler who would have the wherewithal to do it.
 

Lisa Loves Shiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
4,683
Get it checked out by a reputable appraiser to remove doubt. Chances are slim that there is anything nefarious going on, but since you can achieve piece of mind with an appraisal to determine if the diamond matches the report- seems like a good idea to do so since your gut is telling you something is off.
 

holeydonut

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Messages
263
As part of the process of becoming "mind clean" on a rather expensive purchase, you can consider a USB digital microscope and save an image of your diamond inscription for comparison later. The specific font, logo, kerning, spacing along the girdle facets, etc would be difficult to completely replicate.

The microscope also allows you to get a very distinctive zoomed-in hearts & arrows image that could be compared with future photos when you get the ring cleaned or resized.

Regarding the placement of the inscription in a mounted setting... Brian Gavin's team ensured that the inscription would be visible before I purchased.

https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-Mic...011_1_3?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1539124762&sr=1-3
($35)

Here's an example of what it can capture. Not the world's best clarity, and focusing the lens gets pretty tough. But it should be enough for casual use.

104100872057.jpg
 
Last edited:

Funkywunky

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Messages
9
Small update... I actually bought a usb microscope (4 dollar, China) and it actually shows the correct laser inscription, including a perfect Brian Gavin Black logo.

Also, the hearts and arrows pattern is mouthdroppingly beautiful with a microscope...

Thanks for the feedback, the assuring replies and the advice.
 

Lykame

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2018
Messages
1,433
Small update... I actually bought a usb microscope (4 dollar, China) and it actually shows the correct laser inscription, including a perfect Brian Gavin Black logo.

Also, the hearts and arrows pattern is mouthdroppingly beautiful with a microscope...

Thanks for the feedback, the assuring replies and the advice.

I love this community. :kiss2:

Excellent!

Did you get it professionally cleaned? Regardless of anything else, would still recommend that!
 
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top