Internet Transaction

[Sozekeyserman]

I''m fairly close to purchasing a diamond over the ''net, but I had a difficult question and wondered peoples opinions on the matter. Just call me a type A medical student...

In an internet transaction, the buyer sends a large sum of money for an unseen product, while the seller sends a quality diamond to an non-local customer.

Has there ever been any problems with this setup? Such as a seller not shipping the expected diamond and claiming otherwise? Or the customer trying to return a switched or falsified diamond? I was curious if there was a way to alleviate this concern, or if folks just generally don''t worry about it?

By the way, I hope to post the sarin and lightscope reports tomorrow of the diamond I''m considering buying!

Soze

 

[belle]

if you are working with a trusted vendor, have no worries. every stone that is sent out has the companies'' reputation on it. they are not going to risk everything by sending something other that the advertised product.
also, most all stones are laser inscribed to match the number on the grading report. a quick check with a loupe will confirm that you have the correct stone.

 

[rainbow]

Hello,

I recently purchased a diamond through a reputable internet vendor but still the same concerns as yourself. To get around this I located an independent appraiser who examined the stone on my behalf, not to check it''s grading as such, but to verify that the stone and it''s GIA report were a match. The stone was then forwarded to me here in Australia.

It cost me extra to have this done but saved a lot of worry!

Hope this helps.

 

[Maxine]

I''v never used an internet vendor, but I definitely would consider it....I would trust the vendors who advertise here....after all they would be HISTORY if they did something and it got out on PS!!!!!

 

[Slykat12]

Use a credit card. That protects you a great deal.
Say that this dough is for the "vs2, E oval, with these measurements and this weight or this gia report number. I felt safer online as I had a written paper trail that I paid for what I wanted and got. My receipt also says all the correct info.

 

[Sozekeyserman]

Hi all, thanks for your responses, let me address them...

Belle, Thanks much for your vote of confidence, I appreciate it. I hope I am dealing with a trusted vendor, although I cannot be 100% sure. They have an excellent record with the BBB, and are a PS vendor. I do not think this particular stone has an engraved ID however.

Rainbow, I asked about the independent appraiser, and this vendor does not offer that service. Ironically, the sales person mentioned they discontinued that service in lieu of an extended return policy due to "fradulant" activity and considerable inventory hold up spent in the independent appraisers stores! While I would prefer to do what you recommend, it''s not possible through this particular vendor.

Maxine, thanks much for the suggestion. I have checked the threads about this vendor, and no negatives have popped up that I can find... not to mention the fact that they''re recommended by Forbes!

Kimberly, I have looked into using a CC for purchase. Unfortunatley, they only offer $1,000 per incident in protection, although there is a significant paper trail that follows as you state. Besides purchase protection and a detailed paper trail, would there be any other benefits to use a CC and pay the extra 3%?

Thanks much for all your responses!

Soze

 

[EZ]

Soze:

I just wrestled with this decision myself. One of my cards does protect for the full purchase price. There is a considerable paper trail and peace of mind. However, the research on Whiteflash.com, Inc turned up one complaint in the last 3 years. The complaint was a "Product Quality Issue" and there was a good faith effort to resolve. Then I checked with the state comptroller to make sure they were in good standing. Searches of this forum and others turned up nothing negative that would worry me.

A wire transfer is a scary proposition. I transferred money out of a brokerage account and even my Broker was concerned. He had me three-way called Lesley to make sure that there would be an association between the transfer and the product. Still - there was an uneasy feeling in pushing a wad of money around via electrons.

My diamond arrived today and my fiancé is very happy with it. Whiteflash provided an appraisal (done in May) and there was no delay in shipping. Once she decides that she really wants this diamond we will have a truly independent appraisal done and possibly gem-print it if we keep it.

It’s kind of like a first solo flight or skydive, Soze. You do your training (research) and prepare but at some point there comes a moment of faith and you have to take a big step into the unknown. I am still a tiny bt worried about what comes if we want to return the diamond but given my experience so far it looks like my vendor will back their product. I think that most legit businesses will do the same; they really want to resolve issues and have a customer come back or refer other business to them.

This is rambling on so I’ll wrap up. It looks like you have done your homework. Trust your instinct and I think you will be fine.

 

[Slykat12]

I did not know there was a limit on protection.

I do know that using my citybank I can dispute charges where I did not get what I paid for.For example getting the wrong stone, and if the item is stolen by any means within 30 days they replace the amount I spent. It really works as I used the dispute for a hotel room once I never got and my snowboard was stolen first day out.

Of course, the snowboard value was less than 1000.00. I think a wire transfer with the gia report number on it would sufice in any court of law.

Also no one is more type A than me baby. I am uptight city! Paper trails are proof. Someone's word in a shop is not as powerful. Who are you dealing with anyway? )))

PS.. I would never deal with any vender who refused to send it to an independent appraisor prior to me paying. But as I said that's cuz I am anal. You pay the appraisor and you pay for the shipping to yourself as the vender should pay for the shipping to the appraisor.

 

[denverappraiser]

Soze,

If they will not allow you the opportunity to examine the stone, show it to anyone you choose and return it for a full refund if you aren't happy for any reason, you should walk away from the deal. This includes getting an opinion from your appraiser, your mother or your astrologer. If the vendor is resisting you getting it appraised, this is all the more reason to push the point. Get it examined by a pro as soon as you get it if you have any questions at all about whether the stone is being properly represented or if you are less than 100% certain that the dealer has told you the complete story.

If its simply that they are unwilling to send out their valuable stone without being paid first, this is entirely reasonable. For the most part, I agree that the business of vendors sending diamonds directly to appraisers without being paid first based on the appraisers good credit is a goofy deal that exposes both the vendor and the appraiser to unnecessary risk and adds the possiblity of collusion between the two. I am willing to accept these deals because they are so popular with the customers but I much prefer to the see the dealer send the stone directly to the client and the client present it to me without even so much as telling me the name of the vendor. It avoids even the perception of a problem and it clearlly establishes that it's up to the customer, not the appraiser to get the stone properly returned if they decide not to buy it. Even when they have a valid reason to send the stone directly to the appraiser (for example when the client is overseas and they want it appraised before it passes through customs) it's appropriate that they protect themselves by getting paid up front. The key is the return policy. No returns = No Sale.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[mrmedoes]

To play devil''s advocate, I would say that the same questions could apply for local retailers. Issues of quality and delivery of the purchased stone could occur just as easily at a local vendor. Honestly I think that at least with the PS vendors, you can get your hearts worth of reports, models, etc versus having to just rely on what a local salesperson says (notice I didn''t say jeweler). Ask anyone who bought before they discovered PS and they''ll probably tell you that they could''ve done better.

When I first went to look at diamonds with my friend for his engagement ring, he was taking me as a voice of reasons. I saw things like showing set diamonds to hide inclusions or mask color, having hugely inappropriate "appraisals" and tons of high pressure. I would rank these as a higher concern than an internet vendor, and unfortunately a lot more people fall prey to those things.

 

[Slykat12]

Hmmm I guess thats fine too Denver Appraisor dude. I see your point as well. However sometime the online jewelers have such short return times that lining up an appraisor and getting them to complete the job and remail it back with the state of ups and fed ex, hmmm It is a gamble.

 

[MissAva]

Does the time period you have to return the ring include the time it spends at an appraiser? I was under the impression that vendors (at least the PS ones) would let you send it to an appraiser w/o having bought the stone? Is this incorrect? I also thought they let you have it reexamined after setting...that is something I will be looking into for sure.

 

[denverappraiser]

mrmedoes,

All of the issues absolutely apply for a local dealer and I give the same advice to local shoppers. No refund - No sale. Any decent jeweler can supply you with the same sorts of documentation as the online dealers but most choose not to because it's so much work. That's their call but it's a reason that many customers choose to shop elsewhere. Personally I think they're being dumb. BS 'appraisals', sleezy and high pressure sales tactics and the like are definitely a reason to move on. There are jewelers out there who will treat you as you should be treated. Some are serious about their websites while others are not. The most important element in choosing your dealer is the character of the people behind the counter/keyboard.

Kimberly,

The length of the return period is an interesting problem. I would call 7-10 days a minimum and that doesn't include shipping time. I like to see 30 days. Some will give as long as forever. As you point out, most of the good appraisers are pretty busy and book their time quite a bit in advance. For internet transactions, you usually have a few days lead time and if you set your appointment as soon as you know what you are buying there is rarely a problem. I'm normally less than a week out on appointments so my clients will usually show up on about day #2 or 3.

The concern expresed by the vendor above is a valid one. In the case of a local store, if you don't decide to buy a stone, they can just show it to the next person who walks in the door. It's sort of the "kiss a lot of frogs and eventually you'll find a prince" theory of sales. The internet dealers have a different problem. If it takes a week to ship the stone to you, it takes the customer 30 days to decide and then it takes a week to ship it back, this has tied up their inventory for a month and a half where they've been unable to sell it to anyone else. If they don't own it in the first place, you can bet that their supplier is going to be pissed off at them long before this and it can cause problems with their supplier relations, in addition to losing the sale. This is the bind that they get into when they ship directly to the appraiser because no one is motivated to be in a hurry to return it. The consumer, on the other hand, is highly motivated because they won't get their money back untill it arrives and the dealer has had the opportunity to inspect it. Suddenly that 6 weeks turns in to 2.

Matadora,

Quite a few of the PS dealers will send a stone to an appraiser for examination before you pay but it's far from all of them. I don't even think it's a majority. Apparently this deal involves one that formerly did this and now refuses. I'm just trying to fill in the blanks for why they might make such a decision.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Slykat12]

All excellent points denver appraisor. I had only 24 hours to decide on my rock after an appraissor saw it and you know it was enough time. It was not even my fault either. I did feel pressure but got so much stuff in writting if I find out the stone is a lemon well hahaha lets not go there as I am not one to piss off hehehe.

I guess you simply need to check out the return policy in full and talk to your vender about options. I heard that some start the clock when it drops in the mail. Others are more flexible. Do be respectful and return it fast if you don't want it as selling stones is how these guys make their living.


On another note I am curious as Whiteflash and Gog get so much great press. I note they get mentioned much more often than chance would have it. hmmmm Not that I have a problem with them I don't.But Nice Ice, Dow, Union, DCD, Blue Nile and my man Gary Dutton rock as well.

 

[rainbow]

I thought I''d clarify my earlier post.

I had to pay cash up front before the stone was sent to the appraiser. (Very few, if any, online vendors will accept a credit card form an overseas customer, so there''s no protection there).

The appraiser was totally independent and had nothing to do with the vendor. I located one by using the GIA and Pricescope websites and chose one close to the vendor who did not deal in diamonds themselves.

The appraiser then confirmed it was the stone on the report and personally took it back to the vendor, where both saw it packed and both took it to Fed EX.
(Something that I thought was exceptional customer service by both parties)

The return period did not start until I had received the stone here in Australia although I had the right to return it direct from the appraiser if ny problem was found.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 7/28/2005 5:19:18 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Soze,


If its simply that they are unwilling to send out their valuable stone without being paid first, this is entirely reasonable. For the most part, I agree that the business of vendors sending diamonds directly to appraisers without being paid first based on the appraisers good credit is a goofy deal that exposes both the vendor and the appraiser to unnecessary risk and adds the possibility of collusion between the two....

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

I just wanted to take a moment out and briefly comment that while the idea for the practice Neil describes above probably provides practical benefits to both the buyer and appraiser, and that it was probably originated with some creative "outside of the box" more routine thinking about ways to "skin the cat" of buying from afar -- nevertheless -- Neil''s public stance on this is like a straight shot of something or other...very refreshing to read...and makes clear the window looking in on the aesthetics of this practice, which certainly challenges the basis upon which an "independent appraiser" lays claim to that name. Here here.

Warm regards,

 

[Sozekeyserman]

Hi all, let me respond again to your comments. I appreciate them very much!

Kimberly - Thanks for your comments, it''s nice to hear you came out on top of the hotel/snowboard incidents! While they don''t send to an independent appraiser, I have 30 days to get the stone appraised myself. Like your last comment however, I worry about a nightmare situation, such as them switching the stone or something along those lines.

Denver - This vendor does infact allow for a 30 day inspection and 100% return. I just worry about the nightmare situation, which most folks say isn''t much of a problem. Nightmare being that someone switches the stone before shipping it, and claiming the purchased stone was rightfully shipped. Thanks for your comments on the subject however, and your reassurance that it''s completely normal for vendors to expect payment before shipment. While I do have a bit of apprehension about this, I guess I''ll just have to get over it. This vendor has a very good record with the BBB and is highly recommended. While I don''t have a good astrologer lined up, perhaps you know of one in the kalamazoo, MI area?

MrMeDoes - Interesting point about those who discovered PS after they initially bought... I''m glad I''m not on the other side.

Matatora - Each vendor varies in policy. This particular vendor does not ship the stone to anyone without first paying for the stone. In my post above in response to Rainbow I give the sales person''s reason as to why this is. About reexamination post setting. This particular aspect doesn''t apply to my case, I''m buying the diamond loose and having it set by a local jeweler.

Rainbow - Seems we are in similar situations, although I''m going to elect to pay with credit card since I''m "domestic". I definitley plan to get this appraised as soon as I get possession of the stone.

Thanks all for your comments, I''m feeling better about this whole purchase!

Soze

 

[widget]

Hi, Everyone...

Thanks for such an interesting and informative thread!

Could anyone further comment on the advantages/disadvantages of transferring money by wire? I've done this in the past without mishap, and didn't worry about it because my bank, of course, has a record of the $$$ going into the vendor's account. Should I have been more concerned?

Thanks!
widget

 

[denverappraiser]

Widget,

If you pay by credit card, you have recourse through the credit card company. If the transaction is fraudulent then you can make a case to the company and they can reverse the entire deal. This will, of course, depend on the strength of your case and the policy of your individual card issuer but it is an additional level of protection that is not available if you pay with other methods. The downside is that there is a fee for this. Usually it’s about 2% and it’s charged to the merchant. Economics 101 teaches that all such fees end up being paid by the consumers and this is the primary reason that the sellers give you a discount for paying by wire. If the credit card company doesn’t agree with your case, you always have recourse through the courts.

If the wire is over $10,000 and the transaction is fraudulent, this is called felony wire fraud and it’s a big damn deal. This is a criminal case instead of just a civil one so there is actually pretty good protection here as well. It’s even better if you’re a senior citizen because you have some special laws protecting you from financial crimes. The difficulty is the middle ground where you are wiring a few thousand dollars and you’re just a regular person like the rest of us. You can plead your case to the bank and in some cases they will try to retrieve the money but basically this will end up in civil court if you can’t work out your problems with the merchant directly. This is the proverbial worst case scenario. The rules are completely different, and far more complicated if either the merchant or the customer is outside the US.

My usual advice for clients who don’t have a well established relationship with the merchant is to pay the fee and use the card. The peace of mind is worth the 2%. Pick your card thoughtfully because certain banks are far more inclined to side with the consumer than others and this is difficult to identify. They all claim to be your best buddy in their advertisements. In general, cards from ‘real’ banks are better and the local banks where you have an ongoing relationship are the best. Don’t use a debit card. You still have to pay the higher price and you get nothing for it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Slykat12]

I have 30 days to get the stone appraised myself. Like your last comment however, I worry about a nightmare situation, such as them switching the stone or something along those lines.

Dude this is not going to happen. I assume you are on American soil and are buying from an American vender. Stop freaking out! We have laws that protect you from fraud and these pay treble in court.

Have the seller email or fax you a copy of the gia report on the stone you want. Pay via a good credit card. Get the stone appraised. See if you like it too! If not send it back insured. It is next to impossible to have anything switched out. As the weight, measurements and inclusions are on the gia report you will already have! Get a gem scan at the apprassor or an inscription if you are so worried. Look at it yourself when you get it under a loup. Pay extra for an inscription if you must.

Anyway, I seriously doubt these guys have an exact stone such as yours to switch it out with.

BTW u never mentioned the type of stone you have. Mine is a Marquise so unique so no one could switch it out as they would not have one in stock like it. I also know my stone. I know its shape and color. Have them weigh it in front of you pre and post appraisal. Have them put it under a microscope for you too pre and post appraisal.

Your fears are 100% understandable but I think you are safer buying online I really really do.
30 days is a great return policy. Mine was like 24 hours and I did fine.