internal graining and surface graining

[SunshineHuskies]

Hope some experts out there could help clarify. A 1.3 ct D colour VS2 stone that is GIA certified with EX polish and symmetry has the comments of internal and surface graining not shown. It looks a sparkling stone but the comments make me a little comfortable. The jeweller told me its fine since GIA cert already confirm its overall polish as Ex. Will the stone''s value be affected by comment?

 

[WinkHPD]

Perhaps 1 or 2% by those in search of perfect paper. If the stone has excellent polish and symmetry you may safely buy and enjoy this diamond without fear. Most, including jewelers, will NOT be able to find this to show it to you under a scope, and you absolutely will NOT be able to see this with the unaided eye.

Wink

 

[SunshineHuskies]

Thanks, just realised the typo error, I meant uncomfortable and glad you knew it. how can GIA indicate EX polish when the graining is related to the polsih?

 

[Allium]

Polish and symmetry are a result of human labor. The craftsmanship and skill are what''s being graded. Surface graining is a natural characteristic so it''s simply commented on for the consumer''s benefit. Surface graining is nothing to be concerned about whatsoever. Generally internal graining isn''t either unless it''s visible face up. You do occasionally come across diamonds with eye visible grain lines or grain centers though the crown but it''s unusual (particularly in a VS2 stone).

 

[WinkHPD]

LOL! When I read that I did not even catch the typo. I knew what you meant and replied to it. OUr mind can play wonderful tricks on us from time to time, particularly right after we wake up in the morning...

Wink

 

[Rhino]

Date: 10/23/2005 10:11:46 AM
Author:SunshineHuskies
Hope some experts out there could help clarify. A 1.3 ct D colour VS2 stone that is GIA certified with EX polish and symmetry has the comments of internal and surface graining not shown. It looks a sparkling stone but the comments make me a little comfortable. The jeweller told me its fine since GIA cert already confirm its overall polish as Ex. Will the stone''s value be affected by comment?

Hi Sunshine,

Welcome to the forum. A diaimond can indeed get Ex/Ex polish/symmetry yet still have graining problems.

For the most part graining is a non-issue and relates to irregularity regarding the growth of the crystal structure. It oftentimes results in internal strain which can be an issue sometimes if there are feathers at or close to that strain. Most professional''s opinions on this is that once a diamond has survived the heat/pressure/stress of both the crystalization process of the carbon plus that of the cutters wheel, the stone will be fine since the end consumer doesn''t put the stone through these measures.

Graining can *sometimes* result in a stone that takes on an appearance akin to that of one with strong blue fluorescence. Not too long ago we had a stone in our lab, a 1.96ct E VS1 Ex/Ex which I would have loved to purchase except the graining in this stone gave it a milky/oily/chalky appearance in lighting environments that emitted short wave ultra violet fluorescence. This phenomena appeared in only certain limited lighting environments however it was enough to know I wasn''t going to drop over 20k on it.

Chances are the stone you''re looking at doesn''t have this feature but it certainly doesn''t hurt to ask. If you can see the stone make sure you view it in strong halogens or direct sunlight or some lighting environment that emits uv light and comapre it to a stone with none or faint fluorescence and no graining. If you can''t see any difference in appearance, and all other factors are a thumbs up, then you should strongly consider it. 1.3xct D VS diamonds are not a dime a dozen.

Hope that helps.

 

[kenny]

I think something is being overlooked here.

Customers vary.
Some want perfection.
You may "know better" and want to train them, (and BTW may not stock many perfect stones and therefore lose a sale.)
But I say let them pursue the more perfect diamond if that is what they want after getting educated.

You can argue all you want that an E is indistinguishable from a D except by a gemologist, under controlled lighting conditions, loose only, pavilion up.
Whatever!

If a customer wants a D, and has the bucks, and understands he is paying X dollars for a difference of Y, I say go let them buy the D.
Graining is another thing we would prefer the diamond did not have.
This one has it, and the GIA noted it.
You are telling the customer, "Don''t worry about that. It doesn''t matter."
Well maybe it DOES matter to this customer.
Some cultures and individuals associate the perfection of the stone with the purity of their love for the woman.
Don''t laugh.
This is a very personal and emotional decision.
People vary.

Also, I suspect that all this stuff is taken in to account when the diamond was priced.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/23/2005 2:04:05 PM
Author: kenny
I think something is being overlooked here.

Customers vary.
Some want perfection.
You may ''know better'' and want to train them, (and BTW may not stock many perfect stones and therefore lose a sale.)
But I say let them pursue the more perfect diamond if that is what they want after getting educated.

You can argue all you want that an E is indistinguishable from a D except by a gemologist, under controlled lighting conditions, loose only, pavilion up.
Whatever!

If a customer wants a D, and has the bucks, and understands he is paying X dollars for a difference of Y, I say go let them buy the D.
Graining is another thing we would prefer the diamond did not have.
This one has it, and the GIA noted it.
You are telling the customer, ''Don''t worry about that. It doesn''t matter.''
Well maybe it DOES matter to this customer.
Some cultures and individuals associate the perfection of the stone with the purity of their love for the woman.
Don''t laugh.
This is a very personal and emotional decision.
People vary.

Also, I suspect that all this stuff is taken in to account when the diamond was priced.

Hi Kenny. I don''t think I was telling him don''t worry about it it doesn''t matter. He asked the effect of the price and I said one to two percent. From a practical point it may not matter, but I would never argue with his right to let it matter from a sentimental point of view. When I commented that most jewelers will not be able to find this and show it to him under the microscope I speak from experience, not arrogance.

It is not my diamond so I have no ax to grind here, and in today''s world if the jeweler does not stock a nicer stone he can usually have it in house in one to two working days. I am sorry if what I said seems to rub you the wrong way, but I gave what I concidered to be a truthful and accurate response to his question.

Wink

 

[Rhino]

Yes, Kenny I don''t think anyone here would disagree with your sentiments. Many factors go into the decision making process which is very personal to each individual. This is also why I also think it is a mistake to criticize a person''s choice who is considering high clarity/color combinations and vice versa. I''ve seen some folks questioned or criticized and suggestions made for lower clarity/color combo''s in exchange for larger sizes. It is natural for people to offer suggestions based on their personal preferences, however just as every diamond is different so are the people who are making decisions on them and each person''s reasons are different. All should be respected even if they disagree with our own personal preference. I know Wink didn''t mean offense in his answer and neither do I.

Good luck on your hunt Kenny.

 

[kenny]

Gosh, I must have come across rather harshly, sorry.
I guess I have to be careful how I phrase things.
I certainly didn't mean to call anyone, or even imply arrogance and don't think anyone was being criticized.

I frequently see people coming to PS talked down in clarity and color in favor of size.
We are a very influential bunch here.
I think when the newbie comes here wanting a D-F, and IF - VVS we should certainly give them the speech about eye-clean and discernable color vs. price, but in the same breath mention that after the education if you still want to pay for high color/clarity that's fine.
You don't have to read between the lines to feel crazy for opting for better than a I, SI2

Live and let live.
Buy and let buy.

I'm just speaking up for acceptance of diversity.
Someone's got to buy those dang D IFs.

 

[SunshineHuskies]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the info, it''s been really really helpful. I had the chance to look at the stone under strong sunlight with 10x magnification. Cant see grain lines from the top but when I look through the side, I believe I saw some areas with grain hence was concerned. But the diamond looks really white and sparking from the top. I have the same thots as Rhino and felt that a DVS2 stone that is that size and perfect specs (ideal proprtion etc) and H& A pattern are too good to resist. I have another choice of a DVS1 stone 1.44ct VG VG polish and symmetry which has a medium florescence but no other comments in GIA cert. So I am really scratching my head hard in making the right decision.

BTW, for VS2 quality, which is the less serious impurity : crystal, feather, needle?

 

[valeria101]

Graining is very much OK with me, bar (?) the cases Jonathan mentions. I remember SI2s and lower with this sort of issue. Now, I don''t know if the translucent ''fancy white'' diamonds are clouded by ''graining'' or their invisibly small inclusions come by other name.

I simply could not resist posting these pictures of graining below... I love inclusions !

Cool or what ! These come from an AGS article down this link

 

[Rhino]

Val,

That has gotta be the coolest shot i''ve ever seen of graining!

Hey Ken,

Your voice is heard and noted and I agree 100%.

Hey Sunshine!

Good to hear back from ya. If the stone doesn''t have any ill effects in the face up view it sounds like a winner. Beyond the basic main angle criteria it helps to know lower girdle, star and upper girdle info if you''re seeking further clarification for how this stone may appear. If you can garner that info we make make you a basic model.

Kind regards,

 

[mdx]

Hi Ana

Great images, but I dont think they relate to graining, looks like a cloud.

Johan

 

[mdx]

Having seen a cloud in Ana’s images and giving it some thought.
I suppose that a cloud in a perfect plain could be termed graining.
I have seen this in a stone with a misaligned lattice

Johan

 

[SunshineHuskies]

Hi Rhino and rest,

Where can I get the info about lower girdle, upple girdle and angle? All I have is the standard info from the GIA cer provided by the jeweler : size 1.33ct, 7.09-7.13 diametre, thin to medium girdle culet none flore none.

 

[mdx]

You are going to need a Sarin, Ogi or Helium scan.

Ask your Jewellers to approach his supplier who may have one on file

Johan

 

[SunshineHuskies]

Hi Johan,

No luck with getting more info from the supplier. The jeweler in Singapore (where I am from) dont even know what these things are. Sigh!!

Hey Rhino, I happened to fumble over the Goodoldgold web and got quite a bit of info on graining stuff. Can I clarify if I can interpret that internal graining is different from grain and internal strain? and GIA will spell internal strain separately (if it exists) and not lump it under internal graining. Am I right? Can you tell me if needle is worst off than crystal or cloud? Thanks.

 

[Jr22]

Date: 10/23/2005 8:37:52 PM
Author: kenny
Gosh, I must have come across rather harshly, sorry.
I guess I have to be careful how I phrase things.
I certainly didn''t mean to call anyone, or even imply arrogance and don''t think anyone was being criticized.

I frequently see people coming to PS talked down in clarity and color in favor of size.
We are a very influential bunch here.
I think when the newbie comes here wanting a D-F, and IF - VVS we should certainly give them the speech about eye-clean and discernable color vs. price, but in the same breath mention that after the education if you still want to pay for high color/clarity that''s fine.
You don''t have to read between the lines to feel crazy for opting for better than a I, SI2

Live and let live.
Buy and let buy.

I''m just speaking up for acceptance of diversity.
Someone''s got to buy those dang D IFs.

Don''t worry Kenny,
Just to let you know, I wanted a D-F and VS + stone and finally purchased a D/VS1 stone. I listened, read and understood what everyone was saying about "go bigger and get an SI G or H stone." Well, I didn''t want to go bigger because of her thin fingers and I bought what I wanted without and due influence from folks on here. I listened and I do agree that an SI can be an outstanding deal if it is eye clean but I wanted to satify myself not only her in the purchase.

I understand and agree with what your saying, but I believe most consumers will end up buying what they want not what people tell them.