Interesting GIA comment + opinion on these 2 stones (cut vs clarity)

[aw45]

hi all, like eveyone who is planning to buy an engagement ring does, I have been hanging around this wondering site for the past few weeks. I narrowed down to two final stones I want but one GIA report has a comment regarding the cut grade.

"Cut grade is based on brillianteering of the half-facets." Well I understand the english part but what does that really imply. I don''t really get how they can grade it by half of the stone!?

Info on the GIA Stone with interesting comment:
GIA:
Carat: 1.1cart
Color: F
Clarity: VS1
Cut: Very good
Finish: Polish and Symmetry - both excellent
fluro: none
measurement- 6.62 -6.7 * 4.09mm
depth: 61.4%
width: 55%
crown: 35.5
pavilion: 40.6
griddle: thin
HCA score - 1.8
price $7900

I am comparing with this one
AGS
Carat: 1.146cart
Color: F
Clarity: VS2
Cut: AGS Idea 0
Finish: Polish and Symmetry - both excellent
fluro: none
measurement- 6.7-6.75 7 * 4.13mm
depth: 61.3%
width: 57.9%
crown: 34.6
pavilion: 40.9
griddle: medium to thick
HCA score - 1.2
price $7990
note - the report shows there is a cloud in the middle of the stone (the size is about the symbols in the ags report). With the real stone I tried pretty hard but I can''t see it with my untrained naked eyes.

Price is pretty much the same. The difference is the clarity vs cut. I kind of in a favour of the ags one because of the cut grade and the cloud in the center of the stone can''t really been seen by normal ppl. GIA one has a lower cut grade but yet having a higher score on HCA 1.2 vs the 1.8 for the AGS one which confuses me. Normally, I would think a better cut would have a higher score. I know some of you might think who cares... it is pretty much the same, but I would like some opinion or education from one of the experts here. unfortunately, i dont have any more information about the stones. Thanks.

aw45

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

That is GIA code for the stone is painted.
You can search here and find many threads discussing it.
The effect reduces contrast and in this stone could effectively lower the HCA score.

But for saftey sake the AGS stone is a bigger and better option.

No VS2 cloud will reduce the brilliancy etc

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 11/2/2006 5:01:54 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
That is GIA code for the stone is painted.
You can search here and find many threads discussing it.
The effect reduces contrast and in this stone could effectively lower the HCA score.

But for saftey sake the AGS stone is a bigger and better option.

No VS2 cloud will reduce the brilliancy etc

somewhat ironic considering the painting technique is almost designed to appeal to the idealscope

 

[Stone Hunter]

The first one also has a THIN girdle so I would not consider it compared to option #2. Just another mark against it. While thin is ok and very thin is bad why even take the chance when #2 has a perfect girdle? A Very thin girdle raises concerns for chipping the stone.

 

[aw45]

Thanks all for providing valuable feedback. I was so tempted to return my ags stone from BN after talking to the local jeweler who is going to set my stone (this local store has a setting we want). Obviously, the local jeweler tried to show me other stones in order to convince me to return my ags stone. First he said my stone has a cloud in the ceter and he said he won''t even consider this as ags vs2. Then he showed me two other stones, one is mentioned above and the other has similar gia spec but with cut grade rated as excellent. (one grade up BUT the other stone showed very poor result in the HCA!!) Then he started showing me the invoice of his cost blah blah telling me I can paying less to get a VS1 stone ignoring the fact that the cut grade of one stone posted above is very good instead of excellent (he was saying there is no price difference between those grade which I dont believe). Originally I think the GIA stone is one grade lower in cut but one grade higher in the clarity which should be equivalent to the ags stone I have. Plus the GIA stone doesn''t have a cloud in the center. Not until you guys tell me the GIA stone is a painted stone....
So I will definitely not going to get the painted GIA stone but now I am wondering if I should keep my ags stone...AGS report section is attached... I am thinking to get an independent appraiser to look at the stone. Any advice would be appreciated. Many thanks!
aw45

 

[aw45]

Here is the file.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Actually there's nothing wrong with a girdle avg of thin. Thin, Medium & Slightly Thick are all preferable as averages. Here is a thread which may be of interest.

Painting, in moderation, can be used to acquire desirable visual properties. Here is an article with information on painting/digging & premium diamonds. See page 3 for examples demonstrating the different lab thresholds for crown-only painting: AW45, this may be the reason for the GIA comment and grade of VG (?)

 

[Shay37]

For some people, crown-only painting is a bonus. It depends on who cut it and how they cut it. That is a discussion for another day.

The real issue for me is the jeweler trying to denigrate a stone with great numbers and excellent clarity. That is an absolute no-no for me. Setting or not, I would tell him where to get off and find someone else to do the work. I realize that jewelers need to make a living. I understand that they should be able to show you stones that you might like in order to maybe gain a sale. What I cannot stand is one who puts down (what looks to be by the numbers) a killer rock em sock em stone. It just makes me so angry.

shay

 

[Rhino]

Date: 11/2/2006 5:01:54 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
That is GIA code for the stone is painted.
You can search here and find many threads discussing it.
The effect reduces contrast and in this stone could effectively lower the HCA score.

But for saftey sake the AGS stone is a bigger and better option.

No VS2 cloud will reduce the brilliancy etc

Just curious Gary. How can you differentiate from the GIA Report whether it was painting or digging?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Good point Rhino

- I cant

 

[aw45]

Date: 11/2/2006 3:33:39 PM
Author: Shay37
For some people, crown-only painting is a bonus. It depends on who cut it and how they cut it. That is a discussion for another day.

The real issue for me is the jeweler trying to denigrate a stone with great numbers and excellent clarity. That is an absolute no-no for me. Setting or not, I would tell him where to get off and find someone else to do the work. I realize that jewelers need to make a living. I understand that they should be able to show you stones that you might like in order to maybe gain a sale. What I cannot stand is one who puts down (what looks to be by the numbers) a killer rock em sock em stone. It just makes me so angry.

shay

Originally, I was quite happy for more options with a pretty fair price. After using the HCA and feedback from the experts here, I am a bit upset about what he is trying to sell. He only has GIA stones and he told me GIA grading system is tighter than AGS. Oh well, I corrected him and he called one of his cutters to confirm I was right. Few of his comments are not only misleading but just plain wrong. Interesting part is that he told me "he is not a good salesman" when he was showing me the invoice price for the stones and the rapaport report regarding the pricing etc etc. I went to 5-6 different stores before and so far he is the best salesman. Now I am not too sure if I can trust this guy even for the setting. Shane co has this setting as well so I may just go with them for the piece of mind with a minor increase in price. Anyway, I do appreciate this guy helping me out to match the stone with the cert and maybe he is not trying to scam me after all. Guess I can call him up and ask him what is the meaning of the comment or what he thinks about the diamonds he is trying to sell lol... I feel bad for ppl buying diamonds without hanging around this site for a while. I just got the stone so I still have plenty of time to decide (29 days). Thanks guys!

 

[Rhino]

Date: 11/2/2006 9:42:13 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Good point Rhino

- I cant

LOL... I was wondering if the Aussies had access to some secret code on GIA Reports we didn''t have over here.

Hope all is well with ya.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 11/2/2006 3:33:39 PM
Author: Shay37
For some people, crown-only painting is a bonus. It depends on who cut it and how they cut it. That is a discussion for another day.

The real issue for me is the jeweler trying to denigrate a stone with great numbers and excellent clarity. That is an absolute no-no for me. Setting or not, I would tell him where to get off and find someone else to do the work. I realize that jewelers need to make a living. I understand that they should be able to show you stones that you might like in order to maybe gain a sale. What I cannot stand is one who puts down (what looks to be by the numbers) a killer rock em sock em stone. It just makes me so angry.

shay

Hi Shane,

Caught your comment here and couldn''t agree more about jewelers who''ll knock a stone for no good reason. I''m not sure if you know about this but crown painting alone (or digging on the crown alone as well) can, in the eyes of most observers degrade optics (particularly in the arena of brightness). In Brian''s artile (which John linked to) Brian notes the changes in optics with crown painting at 6 degrees. Many have noted it with even less painting. I don''t think your comment was directed towards that but in case you weren''t aware, both GIA and AGS ding crown painting even if all the other numbers are killer. The difference between the 2 labs is the threshold at which they ding it.

Peace,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/3/2006 9:39:48 AM
Author: Rhino

Date: 11/2/2006 3:33:39 PM
Author: Shay37
For some people, crown-only painting is a bonus. It depends on who cut it and how they cut it. That is a discussion for another day.

The real issue for me is the jeweler trying to denigrate a stone with great numbers and excellent clarity. That is an absolute no-no for me. Setting or not, I would tell him where to get off and find someone else to do the work. I realize that jewelers need to make a living. I understand that they should be able to show you stones that you might like in order to maybe gain a sale. What I cannot stand is one who puts down (what looks to be by the numbers) a killer rock em sock em stone. It just makes me so angry.

shay

Hi Shane,

Caught your comment here and couldn''t agree more about jewelers who''ll knock a stone for no good reason. I''m not sure if you know about this but crown painting alone (or digging on the crown alone as well) can, in the eyes of most observers degrade optics (particularly in the arena of brightness). In Brian''s artile (which John linked to) Brian notes the changes in optics with crown painting at 6 degrees. Many have noted it with even less painting. I don''t think your comment was directed towards that but in case you weren''t aware, both GIA and AGS ding crown painting even if all the other numbers are killer. The difference between the 2 labs is the threshold at which they ding it.

Peace,

And if the proportions are not killers, but work with whatever painting or digging is present to make a wonderful stone, then AGS could give the stone their top grade. GIA cant.

 

[aw45]

Date: 11/3/2006 2:33:48 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 11/3/2006 9:39:48 AM
Author: Rhino

Date: 11/2/2006 3:33:39 PM
Author: Shay37
For some people, crown-only painting is a bonus. It depends on who cut it and how they cut it. That is a discussion for another day.

The real issue for me is the jeweler trying to denigrate a stone with great numbers and excellent clarity. That is an absolute no-no for me. Setting or not, I would tell him where to get off and find someone else to do the work. I realize that jewelers need to make a living. I understand that they should be able to show you stones that you might like in order to maybe gain a sale. What I cannot stand is one who puts down (what looks to be by the numbers) a killer rock em sock em stone. It just makes me so angry.

shay

Hi Shane,

Caught your comment here and couldn''t agree more about jewelers who''ll knock a stone for no good reason. I''m not sure if you know about this but crown painting alone (or digging on the crown alone as well) can, in the eyes of most observers degrade optics (particularly in the arena of brightness). In Brian''s artile (which John linked to) Brian notes the changes in optics with crown painting at 6 degrees. Many have noted it with even less painting. I don''t think your comment was directed towards that but in case you weren''t aware, both GIA and AGS ding crown painting even if all the other numbers are killer. The difference between the 2 labs is the threshold at which they ding it.

Peace,

And if the proportions are not killers, but work with whatever painting or digging is present to make a wonderful stone, then AGS could give the stone their top grade. GIA cant.

Would there be any commnet in the AGS report if there is any sort of painting or digging? Just curious.

 

[Rhino]

Hi aw,

To my knowledge no. The stone will just not get a "0" in light performance. On AGS Reports that don''t get "Ideal" light performance, to my knowledge they will not list the reason. The actual reason is seen in their proprietary "Performance Grading Software" which we can see when we scan an individual stone.

 

[Shay37]

Date: 11/3/2006 9:39:48 AM
Author: Rhino

Date: 11/2/2006 3:33:39 PM
Author: Shay37
For some people, crown-only painting is a bonus. It depends on who cut it and how they cut it. That is a discussion for another day.

The real issue for me is the jeweler trying to denigrate a stone with great numbers and excellent clarity. That is an absolute no-no for me. Setting or not, I would tell him where to get off and find someone else to do the work. I realize that jewelers need to make a living. I understand that they should be able to show you stones that you might like in order to maybe gain a sale. What I cannot stand is one who puts down (what looks to be by the numbers) a killer rock em sock em stone. It just makes me so angry.

shay

Hi Shane,

Caught your comment here and couldn''t agree more about jewelers who''ll knock a stone for no good reason. I''m not sure if you know about this but crown painting alone (or digging on the crown alone as well) can, in the eyes of most observers degrade optics (particularly in the arena of brightness). In Brian''s artile (which John linked to) Brian notes the changes in optics with crown painting at 6 degrees. Many have noted it with even less painting. I don''t think your comment was directed towards that but in case you weren''t aware, both GIA and AGS ding crown painting even if all the other numbers are killer. The difference between the 2 labs is the threshold at which they ding it.

Peace,

Rhino, couple of things. First thing, I''m Shay not Shane.

Second thing, I only threw out a casual comment about a subject much too complex to overwhelm a newb with. I think it was best left casual because to me, the real issue was my third point.

Third Point: Jewelers are entitled to try to sell a diamond. They are entitled to try to sell a setting or any combination thereof. In my opinion, they are not entitled to make the OP feel as if he had made a mistake in his choice by denigrating the stone and/or the lab that graded it. I really didn''t care what stone the guy showed him, and am in no way able to comment as to the beauty or lack thereof on the part of either stone. He saw them. He can judge that for himself. My point was that it is IMO a breach of trust to do that to someone. I would not tolerate it for one second. I am a total sweetheart most of the time, but I would have let the jeweler have it with both barrels on this one.

As to your point to me, I am well aware of the discussions that have taken place on PS regarding that topic. I have participated in several. I have a fairly good understanding of the concepts involved as well as my own preference on the subject. I won''t go into those issues here as I don''t believe they are relevant to the point I was making when I originally chimed into this thread. Hope this clarifies my thoughts on this.

shay

 

[aw45]

Hi Shay, another local jewller found a stone that met my spec. I told them I bought mine already but wouldn''t mind to compare two stones side by side. The stone this store showed me is an AGS stone with the same grading as mine execpt it is 1.02 ct verus the 1.14 I have. Both of the stone looks very nice expect mine is bigger. Total different experience in this store. The lady was very friendly and helpful. We looked at both stones under microscope and she did not give me any pressure at alll. She simply points out the differences between two stones but agreed the stone I have is of excellent quality as well. Of course, the one they are selling is a lot more expensive and they have to agree I got a very good value stone after telling them the price. Too bad they don''t have any setting we like, else this is the type of store I would go. So after all I still believe there are a lot of honest and friendly ppl in this business. Just want to share my experience....

AW

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/3/2006 9:39:48 AM
Author: Rhino

Hi Shane,

Caught your comment here and couldn''t agree more about jewelers who''ll knock a stone for no good reason. I''m not sure if you know about this but crown painting alone (or digging on the crown alone as well) can, in the eyes of most observers degrade optics (particularly in the arena of brightness). In Brian''s artile (which John linked to) Brian notes the changes in optics with crown painting at 6 degrees. Many have noted it with even less painting. I don''t think your comment was directed towards that but in case you weren''t aware, both GIA and AGS ding crown painting even if all the other numbers are killer. The difference between the 2 labs is the threshold at which they ding it. You know the differences between the thresholds that each lab dings painting when GIA has some undeclared and un published formula that we know changed as a result of the Vegas seminar and AGS''s is dependant on the overall stone and proportions. What do you know that no one else knows Rhino?

Peace,

 

[Rhino]

Hi Shay,

Argh ... my bad.

I''m totally with ya on this. I know you''re pretty much up to speed on those issues and I totally respect your preferences.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 11/3/2006 11:50:10 PM
Author: aw45
Hi Shay, another local jewller found a stone that met my spec. I told them I bought mine already but wouldn''t mind to compare two stones side by side. The stone this store showed me is an AGS stone with the same grading as mine execpt it is 1.02 ct verus the 1.14 I have. Both of the stone looks very nice expect mine is bigger. Total different experience in this store. The lady was very friendly and helpful. We looked at both stones under microscope and she did not give me any pressure at alll. She simply points out the differences between two stones but agreed the stone I have is of excellent quality as well. Of course, the one they are selling is a lot more expensive and they have to agree I got a very good value stone after telling them the price. Too bad they don''t have any setting we like, else this is the type of store I would go. So after all I still believe there are a lot of honest and friendly ppl in this business. Just want to share my experience....

AW

Excellent news AW. Thanks for keeping us up to speed. Yep ... there are still some good apples out there.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 11/4/2006 12:53:48 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

You know the differences between the thresholds that each lab dings painting when GIA has some undeclared and un published formula that we know changed as a result of the Vegas seminar and AGS''s is dependant on the overall stone and proportions. What do you know that no one else knows Rhino?

Muahaha. If I told you I''d have to kill you.

Seriously... I don''t know of GIA changing their thresholds as a result of Vegas. It is at best speculation unless you have it from the horses mouth. Do you? I do know they had established their thresholds before Vegas when they released their system. I also know that GIA will not publish their thresholds and even if they did nobody in this country (that I know of) would be able to determine them precisely. Only because of the tools I employ and my study of the subject am I aware of the thresholds and even at that its only with the stones I''ve been able to study which by no means is exhaustive (though enough to be very darn close) and have primarily centered around crown painting and digging as I see more of those than pavilion painting and digging.

Peace,