Insuring loose diamonds and appraisal practices

[cestmoi]

Ok, I have purchased a loose diamond - the one that I had mentioned in one of my previous posts from Jared. I know some of you may have a bias against Jared, but this stone was too good to pass up as it was a VS1 stone and "G" in color and 1.01CT. Even though the cut and polish was only good, it shone brilliantly with symmetrical arrows and hearts that I can see. I couldn''t stop looking at it. White under dark lighting and shone brilliantly under direct sunshine.

Anyway, I brought my diamond to an appraiser yesterday and it just hit me that this hubbie and wife team might not be really gemologist graduates even though they had numerous excellent reviews online. I mean, I didn''t see any certificates on walls in the office. I have only their word. You tell me if my experience with this appraiser is typical or atypical... my thoughts are that they are the latter.

I got to their suite in which the husband had a nice big comfortable office. The first thing he said was "don''t show me the certificate" (I wasn''t going to anyway so as to not influence his appraisal of my loose diamond)... I gave him the diamond and he started using an idealscope (or similar); he weighed it; looked at it under a 30x microscope. Then he started punching in a value in his calculator. He verbally told me that it looked to be a F color and VS1 with a 1.02Ct. This was close to my IGI cert of G, VS1, 1.01CT.

Without showing me the value, he proceeded to ask me how much I purchased it for. I told him and then without showing me how much he had originally punched into his calculator, he punched in a few numbers and then showed me how much he thought it was... about 300-400$ less. Which is what I expected. I was thinking that I shouldn''t have even told him at that point and was a little curious as what his original amount was. Then he proceeded to ask me how I want to pay for the appraisal. I was flabbergasted that this was it! All within 20 mins. Does this sound typical?

I then asked if he can put what he mentioned down in writing. He said "oh, you want it for insurance purposes"... then he proceeded to simply type out verbatim what my certificate indicated; with a slight difference: fluoresces slight blue (even though my online IGI mentions slight yellow) and he goes "ah, there''s one thing I forgot to do, diamond measurements"... so he uses this digital meter to measure the diameter... then he just took my cert and proceeded to type up a ''report''... he said, to account for replacement value in the future down the road, he increased the value to $1700+ more...

So I ask you, is this typical??????? I felt ripped off. I thought he would at least tell me the number of facets seeing that isn''t too much to ask. I was hoping that he would tell me what the pavilion angles were/ crown angles, etc, but I realized that he may not have the expensive equipment that the big labs have to measure these kinds of things... still, I expected more, such as an actual picture of my diamond''s IGI# inscription and some technical mumbo jumbo...

Secondly, I called State Farm and they couldn''t insure my loose diamond as the ''risks'' are too great. What kind of baloney is this? How do people insure their loose diamonds? I''ll be traveling with it this coming December and feel safer if I had it insured before I leave... any suggestions? How about Jeweler''s Mutual? Anybody have any good /bad experiences with them? They seem like an online insurance company - hopefully not a fly-by-night type as they have a PO BOX as an address only in Wi... http://www.jewelersmutual.com/PersonalJewelry.aspx

 

[neatfreak]

It's fairly normal. Most appraisers don't have the equipment to provide the kind of in-detail analysis we like here, you need to ask beforehand to make sure you are dealing with someone who has it.

Jeweler's mutual also won't insure loose stones per se, but they will insure a loose stone and a setting while it's being set, which is unique in it's own right. As far as I know no consumer company will insure loose stones...

That being said, if the JM policy works for you many of us have had great experiences with them (myself included). They are very easy to deal with should you need to make a claim.

 

[Regular Guy]

Agree with Neat Freak.

With respect to the appraisal experience...there''s probably pretty wide variation. One way to get some additional control, or insight in advance of when you go, is to review the several threads in the FAQ section here, and ask some questions in advance of going...so you''re on the same page.

And do read other threads here (or below my signature) for getting insured, but probably uniquely through JM, and with a specific setting plan, and apparatus (ring) in place.

Note...by getting a diamond, alone, you''ve ventured away from the so called usual route, and are charting a path of your own. Many people have walked this path already, many have documented it hear on Pricescope...but don''t expect it to be straightforward, necessarily.

 

[oldminer]

We surely would love to know if the appraiser you went to is listed in the Pricescope appraiser''s listing Please check your state within Pricescope and see if we have a "problem" appraiser in our midst.

I will say that it is strange that you knew enough to withhold the document from the appraiser, but volunteered what you had paid before the appraiser offered his opinion of value. On one hand you were cautious and did it right and then went and did just the opposite. Why would you change tactics like that?

Truthfully, I don''t care if I see the document before, after or never when I do an objective appraisal. It is easier to look at a report up front and see if it is credible, but many people simply find that approach worrisome. I don''t force it on anyone. It can save a little time and money, but not enough to justify insisting on it. I do prefer seeing any documentation after I have made my own decisions known. It tends to build confidence personally and with the client in most circumstances. Also, when I look at documents I can give further, helpful advice on occasion since I have a good handle on any potential areas of disagreement.
If someone says they don''t want to show me an exisitng report, I remain curious, but could care less. Usually, if there are problems, I''ll find out what''s up later on. Someone will call and either be very nice or very annoyed... Usually they are annoyed.

That''s life.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I think most people are disappointed with the appraisal experience for the amount we pay. To be honest, I was expecting a lot more but oh well.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/23/2008 3:53:28 PM
Author: CharmyPoo
I think most people are disappointed with the appraisal experience for the amount we pay. To be honest, I was expecting a lot more but oh well.

I think we get spoiled by hearing about appraisals from people like Richard, Dave, Neil, etc. so when we just get the basics it''s disappointing!

 

[beach]

So I have this stone coming tuesday
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-1466926.htm#

I am worried that it may appraise lower than I paid if I do not show all the paperwork to show how nice it is... What do you all think? I really do not think the appraisor has access to all the aformentioned equipment. So what do I have to lose by showing the paperwork?

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/23/2008 8:41:47 PM
Author: beach
So I have this stone coming tuesday

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-1466926.htm#


I am worried that it may appraise lower than I paid if I do not show all the paperwork to show how nice it is... What do you all think? I really do not think the appraisor has access to all the aformentioned equipment. So what do I have to lose by showing the paperwork?

I think you should be more concerned with finding an appraiser that knows what they are doing. A good appraiser will know why it is worth more than any other stone.

 

[Regular Guy]

Beach, I think you should discuss with the appraiser the concept of pedigree in principle, before engaging their services.

With respect to their paperwork...I think their diamonds ARE very well documented...and you will probably...at least before leaving, want to plan to partner with them to include in your appraisal all of the paperwork that they will have provided you.

Consider "using" the appraiser to make official what can be known by other sources.

After all, unless you'll go for cash our insurance, if you'll seek replacement should there be a loss, when dealing with an insurer, you do want the insurer to get you something no less in quality...so you will want to have WF's info incorporated, to accomplish this, I think.

(edited to add)...I take Neatfreak's point...and my original thought did run along similar lines...don't take a unique item to someone who won't appreciate it's unique attributes...but I would consider trying to push the envelope. Because WF's diamonds are well documented...you frequently have little to worry about. You might, though...think in advance about the cost you'd like to end up with as an assessment...since you'll be paying that premium for whatever is set. It may or may not be a discussion point with your appraiser, at the end of the day.

 

[beach]

That's kinda how I look at it. These stones are so well documented, I want them to see this info to guide their appraisal. An H, vs2 would replace for 20 to 24 thousand if it was a regular cut.

If my stone did not have ithe info then I would never tell them any info in order to get an unbiased report. Since it does, I want all my documents to be included in their report so that I don't get screwed if I ever need a replacement.


I may ask Tim Schuller in clearwater to appraise my stone just in case.

 

[neatfreak]

Beach, FWIW insurance companies will generally allow you to include all your paperwork from the vendor with your appraisal when insuring your stone. So just send them copies of your AGS report, pictures, receipts, etc. and you will make sure that you are covered in case of a loss.

 

[arjunajane]

cest moi, this actually sounds very typical from my own experience and what I have read about here.
As mentioned, we all may have higher expectations from what we hear about on here, which sadly is not the reality with most appraisers.

And to my knowledge, no Ins Co will insure a loose stone. But your options are discussed widely on PS if you want to research.

 

[CharmyPoo]

We are really spoiled by PS. I was expecting at minimum some of the great stuff that vendors such as GOG provides and photos of our actual stones. The reality is that many reports often contain a lot less. Many of the PS vendors and fellow board experts educate us more and provide us with more information than the typical apprasier. Some of us pay upwards of $200 for only 15 minutes of work and reports may contain typos and other errors. It sure is disappointing when an appraisal is so important for insurance.

The wonderful active appraisers on PS sure sets the bar high for the rest of the industry.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 11/23/2008 10:13:51 PM
Author: CharmyPoo
We are really spoiled by PS. I was expecting at minimum some of the great stuff that vendors such as GOG provides and photos of our actual stones. The reality is that many reports often contain a lot less. Many of the PS vendors and fellow board experts educate us more and provide us with more information than the typical apprasier. Some of us pay upwards of $200 for only 15 minutes of work and reports may contain typos and other errors. It sure is disappointing when an appraisal is so important for insurance.

The wonderful active appraisers on PS sure sets the bar high for the rest of the industry.

CharmyPoo,

It''s not just a problem with jewelry appraisers...it''s a problem in many industries. An oriental rug dealer
that I know showed me a poorly documented appraisal describing a very valuable group of rugs...one line description of each...no pictures. The owner suffered major water damage to the rugs and the insurance company had nothing to work with.

It''s not so much a case of "you get what you pay for...oftentimes the fees are high and you don''t get much

It''s a matter of asking your appraiser BEFORE any work is started...."what information will you provide me and what are your fees?"

And most importantly, will this appraiser satisfy all of my appraisal needs.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[CharmyPoo]

Perhaps I didn''t use the right word "industry" but I was referring to appraisers in general.

I can''t speak for others but we did ask and were told we would receive. It just didn''t turn out that way.

 

[oldminer]

My last 41 years have been spent in the same career and I have seen a ton of abusive practices heaped on consumers in my field, but am very aware that similar abuses exist in nearly every venue open to consumers. Jewelers and appraisers are not alone in often closing their eyes to what fellow merchants and service providers do to their customers. My earliest experiences were with automobiles. Many gas stations used to check the oil level in cars and often did not insert the dipstick all the way into the engine and then sold you an extra quart of oil. The nearly always got away with it. Many good guys never pulled such a mean trcik, but some did it their entire working life. DId you ever need a new roof on your home? Just try to find consistency with home contractors. It is not easy.

Who is being harmed, they say, when a diamond that should be graded J is graded as G so long as the asking price is based on J anyway? Admittedly, people pay differing amounts for identical diamonds depending on where they might choose to buy. We know that the consumer is ripe for being cheated, but if they are unaware of the reality of the market, then who knows and what can be done about it?

This is key to what has been my motivating factor on Pricescope. This singular venue has been open to experts iin a unique way to allow the truth to be broadly told and for the warnings to be given in advance of purchases. The role of the appraiser is to give you the needed assurance that you were not taken advantage of in such a way that no doubt is left anywhere, including linger doubt about the appraiser. It isn''t always a perfect thing, but we are gaining ground in this slow battle.

 

[Fly Girl]

Date: 11/23/2008 9:03:03 PM
Author: neatfreak
Beach, FWIW insurance companies will generally allow you to include all your paperwork from the vendor with your appraisal when insuring your stone. So just send them copies of your AGS report, pictures, receipts, etc. and you will make sure that you are covered in case of a loss.

I agree. In addition to that, make sure that the insurance schedule refers to these articles so in the event of a claim you have evidence that they are in the possession of the insurance company.

I recently had my jewelry appraised, and I had my insurance agent send copies of all of the paperwork, in addition to the appraisal, to the insurance company. And, I made sure that the appraisal was mentioned in the Personal Articles Schedule. It took around six trips back and forth before all of the information was on the schedule to my satisfaction. Not sure what was going on, but it seems that putting down all of the information (such as who did the appraisal and the correct date) was too much of a bother, or something. But, we finally got it all recorded.

 

[beach]

Thanks Fly Girl that is a great point

 

[Char D]

Hi cestmoi,

Jewelers Mutual is a brick and mortar business that has been in business and specializing in jewelry and the jewelry industry for 95 years.

Our Personal Jewelry Insurance is a repair or replacement policy that provides coverage for loss, theft, mysterious disappearance, and damage. You can learn more about the type of coverage you’re looking for by visiting InsureYourJewelry.com or by speaking directly with a licensed service representative at (88 884-2424.

Have a great evening!

Char

 

[hearts-arrows_girl]

I don't know of any insurance company that will insure a loose stone. Why not put your stone in one of those temporary holders that people get when their stone is shipped to them (the metal stone holder ring thingy). Then it is not longer "loose".

My appraisal on my stone took over 1 hour, mostly because I sat and asked questions and had my guy explain everything he was doing. I showed him my cert. after he was done. He was amazingly right on. He use to work for GIA and my stone was certed by GIA, so it was not surprising that his opinion agreed with what my cert said, since he learned his technique from the people who graded my stone in the first place. It was sooo much fun. I played with his "real diamond" color set to see if I was color sensitive. I got to ask oodles of questions, like "Is my stone color high H or low H and is my clarity a high SI1 of low. He then took a picture of my ring in his already set up, perfectly lit, little mini photo studio. When he was through, he gave me a laminated appraisal, plastic sleeve and all, that looked just like my GIA cert, but with a picture and appraised value on it too. It was not only a necessary trip, but an extremely fun and educational experience. (believe me, I didn't give him any info. first. He did his complete appraisal, then we both confirmed what he said with my cert.) I paid $125, which was well worth it to me. He charged based on the size of the center stone. Mine is a 2.03, but I paid for a 1.75 to 1.99 appraisal, even though I should have paid for a 2.00+ one. He said because it was sooo close to the 1.99 mark.

I am in California, and I got my appaisal done in Woodland Hills. Oh, and he had his "Gemologist" degree on his wall, along with many other diamond courses he had completed.

 

[greysca1e]

Date: 11/25/2008 12:55:24 PM
Author: hearts-arrows_girl
I don''t know of any insurance company that will insure a loose stone. Why not put your stone in one of those temporary holders that people get when their stone is shipped to them (the metal stone holder ring thingy). Then it is not longer ''loose''.


My appraisal on my stone took over 1 hour, mostly because I sat and asked questions and had my guy explain everything he was doing. I showed him my cert. after he was done. He was amazingly right on. He use to work for GIA and my stone was certed by GIA, so it was not surprising that his opinion agreed with what my cert said, since he learned his technique from the people who graded my stone in the first place. It was sooo much fun. I played with his ''real diamond'' color set to see if I was color sensitive. I got to ask oodles of questions, like ''Is my stone color high H or low H and is my clarity a high SI1 of low. He then took a picture of my ring in his already set up, perfectly lit, little mini photo studio. When he was through, he gave me a laminated appraisal, plastic sleeve and all, that looked just like my GIA cert, but with a picture and appraised value on it too. It was not only a necessary trip, but an extremely fun and educational experience. (believe me, I didn''t give him any info. first. He did his complete appraisal, then we both confirmed what he said with my cert.) I paid $125, which was well worth it to me. He charged based on the size of the center stone. Mine is a 2.03, but I paid for a 1.75 to 1.99 appraisal, even though I should have paid for a 2.00+ one. He said because it was sooo close to the 1.99 mark.


I am in California, and I got my appaisal done in Woodland Hills. Oh, and he had his ''Gemologist'' degree on his wall, along with many other diamond courses he had completed.

hi hearts_arrows, where did you find your appraiser? I''m also in Cali. thanks!

 

[cestmoi]

Thanks for the replies guys... I''ve already checked with Jewelry Mutual and they could not insure my loose diamond... I''ll have to bring back the mounted diamond and the wearer needs to be residing in the States in order for them to insure the whole thing.

I guess I''m stuck with no peace-of-mind when I fly out of the country this December.

As for jewelry appraisals, since I come from a Science background, I thought it is common sense that gemstone appraisers (esp diamonds) have a ''protocol'' to follow such as:

Dimensions
Weight
Color grading
Clarity grading
Girdle
Culet
etc
etc

Take a pic of the stone itself

You would think that the basics are to be commented on a structured appraisal report. Financial auditors all have a standard to follow, Engineers, Scientists in published journals, etc, all have a structure; I don''t see why gemologists do NOT?

My appraiser was wishy washy and according to alot of people, this is TYPICAL? What an eye opener. As consumers of this luxury item, we should demand more and not accept mediocrity!