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IGL Report - opinions please

mvandalen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
18
Hi everyone,

Think I'm ready to make a purchase, but I'm a little uneasy about buying an IGL Diamond. If I could get some opinions on this particular diamond I would greatly appreciate it. I'm a little confused about the depth and width percentages - is this considered good. It's a great price, so I'd rather not pass it up. Thank you so much for your time!!!

Michael

igl_diamond_grading_report.jpg
 

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kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
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mvandalen|1369602469|3454158 said:
I'm a little uneasy about buying an IGL Diamond. l
Good, smart man.
Don't buy it.
You cannot believe the G VS2 grades.

Those grades dramatically affect the price so it is really important you are as sure as possible about the grades.
The way to be sure is to have the diamond graded by a lab that is honest, like AGS or GIA.
Since the grades are accurate you can know what the price should be.

There is a good chance that diamond would get grades of I SI2 or worse from GIA or AGS.
Another problem with these flaky labs is not only is the grades soft, you cannot know HOW soft they are.
I've read reports here on PS where the grades were 5, or perhaps it was 7, grades soft.

Diamonds graded by GIA or AGS don't cost more they just have accurate grades.
Other labs lie and give higher color and clarity grades so their diamonds SEEM cheaper.

This is sickening but true and zillions of diamond sellers get away with screwing over customers.
They and the flakey labs are laughing all the way to the bank.
The customers think they got a killer deal, but chances are they paid more than they would have if the same stone went to GIA and got lower grades.
They get away with it by saying grading is subjective and done by humans.
Well GIA and AGS use humans too.
 

mvandalen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
18
I've definitely heard that about EGL, but haven't found much info about IGL. I thought there might be some hope as zales and Kay jewelers use IGL diamonds. I do appreciate your honesty though. I will definitely start searching for a GIA diamond.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
26,743
Zales and Kay have high prices for low quality.
Please do a search here on Pricescope to hear the many customer horror stories.
They do not offer idealscope or ASET pics to evaluate the cut quality of a princess.

For a princess cut I'd recommend finding one that was graded by AGS and got the cut grade of AGS0 from one of the following vendors:

www.goodoldgold.com
www.whiteflash.com
www.briangavindiamonds.com
www.jamesallen.com

These vendors give you MUCH more information on cut quality.
They also have better prices than local Brick and Mortar stores.
They have trade up policies, money back guarantee periods, and 3 of them, all but Brian Gavin, post here so if there is ever a problem you can post it here as the world watches the resolution, or not.
IMO, this alone is an excellent reason to buy from these vendors.
Cut (not color or clarity) is the most important of the four Cs when it comes to the beautiful light show only a diamond can put on.

Learn about ASET scope here ... http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_ASET_scope.asp

Selecting a branded princess cut is an assurance of very high cut quality, though it may come for a price.
Solasfera at Good Old Gold and A Cut Above at Whiteflash are two branded princess cuts.
If you have more time and like to do the homework, you probably can also find a non-branded princess cut of high cut quality at a likely-lower price.
 

diamondloveaffair

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
261
Poor poor choice. Good princess cut diamonds don't go over 80% depth.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
54,993
The measurements are irrelevant because it clearly says on the paper that the diamond is clarity enhanced. That is why it is a "good price". You do not want to buy a clarity enhanced diamond as they can have all kinds of problems such as the filler coming out.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
26,743
What was the price of that clarity-enhanced IGL stone?

What's your budget? ... some members here are really good at finding diamonds.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,648
diamondseeker2006|1369621211|3454255 said:
The measurements are irrelevant because it clearly says on the paper that the diamond is clarity enhanced. That is why it is a "good price". You do not want to buy a clarity enhanced diamond as they can have all kinds of problems such as the filler coming out.
This nicely highlights the problem with unusual labs. You don't know the scale they're using. The 'clarity enhanced' comment is in fine print way down at the bottom when, in reality, it's one of the most important line items on the report. They call it 'ideal cut' without any explanation about what they mean by that other than, presumably, it's better than 'excellent' (which also has no standard). Their clarity scale is NOT the GIA scale that is so widely used in the industry, as evidenced by the presence of the SI3 grade and the clarity enhanced comment, but there's no clues about what the various grades mean beyond that somebody at IGL thought it was VS1 (whatever that is). There is NOT general agreement in the trade about these terms and without knowing this it's like measuring with a rubber yardstick.

It's not that they aren't capable gemologists, or even that the report you have is necessarily wrong in any demonstrable sense, it's just not useful as it's been presented to you and for the purpose you have in mind. You're using that grading to compare with other stones described using similar words to determine that it's a bargain. I understand, that's what everybody is looking for but it's a false comparison. You aren't comparing apples to apples. Tiny details make big differences in this business and the tiny details are exactly what you're missing.

The 'clarity enhanced' thing I would take one step further. If all of this is news and the selling jeweler didn't point out that line and explain what it means, I wouldn't just hold it against the stone, I'd hold it against the dealer. I'm not flatly opposed to CE stones but it's a big deal, you can bet they know it, and if they let it skate by as an unmentioned part of the fine print, that's downright deceptive.
 

mvandalen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
18
Man, You guys are outstanding! Thank you so much for the replies; such a wealth of information. Well right now my budget is around $2500 for a stone. I have a line on a 3/4 carat that is GIA certified, good dimensions and and cut. decent color and clarity. for around 2,000, but if I can up that to a 1carat, and it still "look pretty" im completely willing to do that. The only thing i don't want to settle on is the cut. Honestly, I'm unsure if this is even possible for 2500, but if I could surprise the fiancee. That would be great! Thankk you everybody though for the help, and all the information.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
26,743
mvandalen|1369689713|3454646 said:
Man, You guys are outstanding! Thank you so much for the replies; such a wealth of information. Well right now my budget is around $2500 for a stone. I have a line on a 3/4 carat that is GIA certified, good dimensions and and cut. decent color and clarity. for around 2,000, but if I can up that to a 1carat, and it still "look pretty" im completely willing to do that. The only thing i don't want to settle on is the cut. Honestly, I'm unsure if this is even possible for 2500, but if I could surprise the fiancee. That would be great! Thankk you everybody though for the help, and all the information.
AFAIK, GIA does not grade cut of princess shape.
There are too many rows of pavilion facets, that can be well or poorly-angled, to judge cut based on the very limited information GIA reports.

AGS does so I recommend you look for one that AGS graded AGS 0.

Rounds are easy when it comes to determining cut quality.
Princess shape is too complex so you have to depend on AGS 0 or/and ASET images ... unless you have decades of experience in the business or want to pay for one of the branded princess cuts, like ACA or Solasfera, with high cut standards.

I doubt it's possible to find an ASG 0 1 ct for $2500 no matter how low you go in color and clarity.
Something has to give.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
26,743
mvandalen|1369690423|3454652 said:
Kenny, the price of the IGL stone is 2600 with the solitaire, 18k setting.
Yes, clarity enhanced and IGL graded stones SEEM like a bargain ... till you learn more. ;-)
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
26,743
I'd strongly consider this one.
Though it is only 0.7 ct it's I VS2 and an ACA from Whiteflash, which is their finest cut quality.
That means the cut is about as good as you can find anywhere.
The I color allows for the max weight for a color that's not too yellow.
The VS2 clarity is quite good for the money.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut-loose-diamond-2874873.htm
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
26,743
Here is another branded cut with superb optics.
It's called Solasfera.
I own a Solasfera round and it is a real fireball.

0.61 H SH1 for $2148 - you can find the price by clicking on RESERVE DIAMOND.

I realize you want a 1 ct but keep in mind a better-cut diamond looks larger because it is so bright of soft diffuse light and is a fireworks show under spotlights or full sunlight.
In this case I wouldn't worry that it's grade by GIA since the superb cut quality is controlled by Solasfera company.
When a brand puts its name on a diamond it meets the standards of the brand, be it Hearts on Fire, Octavia, Lazare Kaplan, Eightstar, A Cut Above, etc..

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/10714/
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,648
There was a great philosopher who once said 'you can't always get what you want.'

The problem here is a balancing act of specs vs. price. Since the price is carved in stone, which is fine, that means the only thing that can flex is specs.

There are two directions this can go. The dealer or their supplier can shrink their margin or they can lie about the specs. Naturally they're all telling you it's the former. Far more likely it's the later. More insidiously, the ones who are lying are skewing your expectations and causing you to reject the ones who AREN'T lying. For example, an accurately graded 1 carat + SI1/H, supposedly 2 grades below what you're being offered, from a price aggressive dealer is going to cost you about $4000 plus a few hundred for the setting. There are dozens of them for sale in the database.

Obviously something has to give. Lets start by dropping clarity to SI2/I. That saves about $500. It helps but it's not enough. Now it gets harder. If you drop to just below a carat you get another $500 or so. More if you drop below 0.90 and more still if you drop below 0.70. If you drop to I1/J you'll be there but we've now seriously altered the specs. We'll be talking noticeable color and/or eye visible inclusions. What you're being advised above is to substantially drop the weight so you can keep up the color and clarity. I'm inclined to agree with this but it's a tradeoff that only you can make. There's nothing at all wrong with I1/J's if that's what you want. The problem comes when the seller calls them something different so that you're comparing to the wrong stones. It's one of the things that Pricescope is most useful for. Play with the database where you search for a particular set of specs. then alter one and search again. Don't so much look for specific stones as look at what the overall changes to the specs are. Search for GIA only. This will help you to zero in on a set of specs that fit your price. It's free, it's anonymous and you can do it all night if you like. I promise it'll be a useful learning exercise if nothing else. THEN look for specific stones within that range. If you've found dealers you like to work with, browse their inventories and talk to them about what they have and/or can get for you. You're now empowered by knowing what things really cost, what actually changes when they tell you that something is making a particular stone a bargain etc. There's always something, the key is to understand what it is so you can decide if it's going to be acceptable to you.
 

mvandalen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
18
Again, thank you to everyone for the replies. I think, ultimately, the goal is to get a ring that is at least over .8, preferably .9. If I have to wait another couple of months to afford that stone I will. Apropos of settling on some feature, I think I am willing to do so on everything but cut. I want the stone to sparkle above all else. @ kenny - is there any real advantage, aside from insurance of quality, of buying a "signature" stone? That is to say, isn't doing ones homework, and buying within a stones suggested measurements with regard to width, depth and girdle percentages just as legitimate an approach? I don't want to pay for a brand, if I can, with a little research, find a stone of equal brilliance elsewhere.

After reading through whiteflash - I have to say I am impressed with there policies - however they seem so much more expensive than brilliance or bluenile for comparable stones (or at least stones that seem to be comparable to my untrained eye, lol) Is there a reason for this?

Thank you all again for your time with this - you've been so enlightening.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
26,743
mvandalen|1369751913|3455037 said:
@ kenny - is there any real advantage, aside from insurance of quality, of buying a "signature" stone? That is to say, isn't doing ones homework, and buying within a stones suggested measurements with regard to width, depth and girdle percentages just as legitimate an approach? I don't want to pay for a brand, if I can, with a little research, find a stone of equal brilliance elsewhere?
I don't think you need to pay for a brand, but you do need to pay for an AGS 0 princess.
Sorry but here comes a long explanation.
I know you are shopping for a princess but I want to use rounds to explain about cut.

Rounds are easy.
You plug Depth%, Table%, Crown Angle and Pavilion angle into the Holloway Cut Advisor and reject those that score over 2.
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
Then you get an Idealscope image which will reveal any wonky angles.
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/ideal-scope

The reason the HCA alone is not enough is the Crown and Pavilion angles entered are each an average of 8 angles since rounds have 8 sides.
Ideally they'd all 8 be the same but some may be high and others low, but average out to a good number.
When this is the case it will be revealed by wonky arrows and unsymmetrical patterns in the Idealscope pic.

There is no HCA tool for princess cuts.
Princesses are too complex because there are several rows of facets on the pavilion and the angle of each matters a great deal.
Facets reflect light in a specific direction based on the angle made between the facet and the light.
Light can be sent out the bottom or side (bad) or be redirected back out the top to your eyes (good).
A the facets must be tightly positioned for the light to reach your eyes.
Cutters are usually instructed to cut to retain weight via extra depth and fat bulges in a side view.
They also may put the girdle too high or low to maximize yield from the unique shape of every rough.
This is NOT cutting to optimize light performance.
Good light performance 'wastes' rough and and results in a lighter diamond from a given piece of rough.

Few buyers understand good cut but every buyer understands weight .. so can you really blame them for cutting for max profit rather than art or charity?
Fortunately more and more buyers are learning about good cut so a few cutter and sellers cater to this emerging market.
One reason good cut can cost more is this removal of more weight, also it takes a more skilled cutter to tightly control all those facets.
Also since the position of the girdle is critical to good cut they probably cherry-pick the rough and only select rough that happens to lend itself to having the girdle in the right position without wasting too much weight.
All this costs money.

The ASET scope is the best tool we have to evaluate the cut quality of diamonds that are not round.
A properly taken ASET pic is essential IMHO if a princess does not have an AGS report that grades the cut AGS 0.
Keep in mind AGS issues more than one report and the cheaper ones do not grade cut. :blackeye:

Even better than an ASET pic is moving the princess up to around 10 degrees off axis under the ASET scope, either live or in a video.
Watch whether the pattern of Red Green and Blue and White leakage goes to crap or not , as shown in the video in this link if you scroll down ... http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_ASET_scope.asp

You could buy your own ASET scope and buy candidate diamonds and check them yourself within the return period but return shipping could get expensive as few will make the grade, if they did the sellers, who are smart, would have sent them to AGS for the coveted AGS 0 grade.

In summary, when you look at 'comps' at Blue nile they are not really comps.
The limited information provided like depth and table are not sufficient to determine cut quality of princesses.
You must pick a vendor that offers ASET images, and/or AGS 0 stones.
Bluenile does offer a branded Signature Ideal princesses, but then you are paying for the brand.

IMO, you are not going to find a princess with the performance of an AGS 0 unless it IS an AGS 0 because sellers are sophisticated enough to recognize the stone could get AGS 0 so they would send it to AGS.
A princess being cut well enough to get AGS 0 is not an accident, it is the result of the cutter following a recipe.
There is good justification for AGS 0s costing more.
I'd compromise on size, color and clarity to get an AGS 0.
 

mvandalen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
18
Kenny,
Again, thank you for the fantastic advice. So am I to understand the an AGS 0 and an AGS ideal are the same thing? I have found several on Brian Gavin's website that are listed as AGS ideal.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
26,743
Look on the AGS report itself.
To be certain look for this:



The terms Ideal and AGS 0 may refer to the same grade, but I'd always look on the report itself.

Again some cheaper AGS reports do not grade cut and I would not buy such a princess.
Sometimes vendors choose the lower-priced reports to keep down the price of less expensive diamonds.

A vendor may claim AGS Ideal but I personally trust ONLY the report. (I'm not disparaging Brian Gavin.)

screen_shot_2013-05-28_at_12.png
 

propdevel

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Messages
3
Looking for 12 x 1 carat E/F excellent cut and all other cha

I am looking for a wholesale diamond trader who is honest enough to source me 12 Radiant cut diamonds matching for an eternity ring, 1 carat to 1.05 carat E/F,VVS or better and Excellent all other characteristics GIA only.

Impossible to find and its taking me a long time to source the diamonds.

Can anyone help.
 

propdevel

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Messages
3
GIA diamonds for eternity ring.

hi

Can you help in sourcing 12 diamonds for me and checking their grading for an eternity ring.
I would like to have everything checked and to make sure i am buying at a good price.
Genuine person looking.
thanks
 
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