IGI Certification

[SFDavey]

I am looking to understand IGI certification''s place in relation to the other certificates out there.

Would someone please help me to understand the relative merits and drawbacks of IGI''s certification of a diamond? I am picking up my gal''s engagement ring tomorrow and am curious to understand it as much as possible. It has an IGI cert.

Many thanks,
Davey

 

[Brian Knox]

Hi Davey

I am not a fan of the IGI reports.

Although I am relatively new to this forum, I would venture a guess that you will not find many professional's that are fans of the IGI.

Looking for something good to say, I would mention that IGI is better than nothing.

 

[Giangi]

Not necessarily. IGI has several franchises so we need to know which lab issued the report. IGI Antwerp is getting better and better and it's being widely used these days due to their modest cost and great deal of info containted in their reports (especially about cut).

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Hi Davey,


As Brian mentioned, you will surely find a lot of folks bashing IGI.


I feel that while IGI does not come close to equaling GIA's standards, they DO offer some valuable services to consumers.


If someone sold you a diamond and claimed IGI is equivalent to GIA, they have done you a misservice.




IGI will be able to tell you that your stone is natural, and has not been treated or enhanced-


IGI will also issue a monetary appraisal. This too is controversial - mainly because it's really difficult to fix an accurate value on diamonds. Usually places that do this err on the high side- still, many consumers find a monetary figure valuable.




SO- 1) Getting down to brass tacks- did your dealer explain IGI's benefits and shorfalls?


2) Please let us know the Size color and clarity to give a better idea of what you're looking at.

 

[aljdewey]

The IGI that I'm familiar with is the IGI that issues all the paper for Zales diamonds, etc. They have a reputation for being VERY soft on grading.




The advantage of IGI is that you don't pay as much as you do for a top-shelf "pedigree" like AGS or GIA. The downfall.....your appraiser may grade the stone lower than IGI does, and that could impact the value of the price paid.




Another disadvantage.....not as desirable on the market should you ever decide to part with this stone. One of the other posters here, Tincup, is trying to unload an IGI diamond, and he's finding there is little interest because of the weak paper of IGI.

 

[robbe]

sfdavey, the igi is equivalent to gia, hrd except it is a privately owned organisation (most others are non-profit).


i have hundreds of diamonds at these 3 labs permanently and they are on the same line.


some of my clients prefer gia, some hrd and some igi.


it depends of the market area where the stones are sold, it depends of the type of stones ect.


if you don't feel safe because of what some say here, take the stone to an appraiser and ask for validation.


good luck, robbe

 

[fire&ice]

Well, I bought a small diamond on ebay that came with an IGI cert. I won't pretend to grade this diamond. But, it is a pleasing white clean stone (graded G/SI1).

That said, the cert came with quite a bit of information that a GIA cert lacks. They graded the Cut as Ideal. They listed the:
Table %
Girdle thicknes
Crown % & degree
Pavillion % & degree
And all the regular stuff (like sym/polish,etc)

Funny, it does not state Fluor. lack of or presence of.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Yes F&I, IGI offer various types of certificates for whatever the market demands.

And while I do not agree with the broad range of their parameters for 'very good' cut quality - they do avoid the other problem which is creating waste by restricting the proportions that are "said" to produce "ideal cut".

They offer a far bigger range of possabilities for a polisher who knows what they are doing to make beautiful stones, than say a system like AGS or R&T's buying proceedure.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

----------------
On 5/11/2004 3:46:58 PM robbe wrote:







sfdavey, the igi is equivalent to gia, hrd except it is a privately owned organisation (most others are non-profit).


i have hundreds of diamonds at these 3 labs permanently and they are on the same line.


some of my clients prefer gia, some hrd and some igi.


it depends of the market area where the stones are sold, it depends of the type of stones ect.


if you don't feel safe because of what some say here, take the stone to an appraiser and ask for validation.


good luck, robbe

----------------

In my opinoin robbe is way off base suggesting the IGI is the equivalent to GIA- this is not the case in the American market, not even close.

As aljdewey points out, selling a diamond with an IGI report is a completely different story than selling a diamond with a GIA report.

As far as the additonal measurements as compared to GIA- I believe that this is not relavant-

Garry- I don't think any cutters are working to try and meet IGI's standards- AGS, yes, but IGI, nah.

After all, anyone shopping for a H&A stone would laugh at an IGI report- so therfore it really makes no difference what they call "ideal"

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 5/11/2004 5:55:04 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

----------------
On 5/11/2004 3:46:58 PM robbe wrote:

After all, anyone shopping for a H&A stone would laugh at an IGI report- so therfore it really makes no difference what they call 'ideal'

----------------

Actually, I would have to disagree as I have seen it with my own eyes. The H&A AGS0 stones I bought are not as tight or "pretty" as this IGI stone.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 5/11/2004 5:55:04 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

----------------
On 5/11/2004 3:46:58 PM robbe wrote:




>

As far as the additonal measurements as compared to GIA- I believe that this is not relavant-

-----------

And I completely disagree that it is not relavant.

I don't understand why all this discussion about cert goes on. No lab/dealer/jeweler has cart blanche on beautiful stones. I really don't care what cert a stone has as long as it checks out to be what it is supposed to be & it's purdy.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

F&I- I never meant imply that measurements are not important as a rule- or that a diamond with an IGI or EGL report can't be awesome- even nicer than an AGS0 cut grade. People should always buy the diamond, not the paper.




My point is that for people looking for H&A, the fact of life is an AGS report- no?




The reason that this conversation is important is that this aspect of diamond buying can be abused by a seller.


Say a seller has a diamond which GIA graded G/I1. Say that dealer then submits to EGL or IGI who susequently gives that stone an F/SI2.


Now the dealer has a much more expensive stone to sell- UNLESS- the buyer is familiar with this conversation.




Again- it's not that an IGI "ideal" cut is any better or worse than an AGS 0- but in the market, the only way to prove this pedigree is with an AGS report.




What would y'all think of a H&A seller using IGI reports to hang their hat on?

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 5/11/2004 6:17:42 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:


What would y'all think of a H&A seller using IGI reports to hang their hat on?
----------------

I wouldn't have a problem if it *really* checked out. I don't buy into the AGS hype.

That said, I honestly don't know if my little IGI diamond is what it says it is on the cert. All I can say is that it's white, clean & a lovely pleasing cut. Be happy to send it to someone for an evaluation. Free of charge of course.

 

[robbe]

ok, david, what i mean is the grading is equivalent between those 3 labs. they grade within the same lines. there are indeed small differences in the way they market themselves, in the way the expose themselves and in the way they are perceived, but i, as a manufacturer consider them equivalent in their way of grading.


------------


selling a diamond with an IGI report is a completely different story than selling a diamond with a GIA report.


--------------


and selling a chevrolet is a completely different story than selling a bmw?


you are selling diamonds, not reports.


the report is only an opinion of the quality of the diamond you are selling.


this opinion is called 'grading'.


-------------

Garry- I don't think any cutters are working to try and meet IGI's standards- AGS, yes, but IGI, nah.

-----------------

have you ever been outside the usa? i guess not. in belgium, israel, thailand, india, china they do...i do...

cheers, robbe

 

[Stephan]

Why only AGS?
AGS doesn't give H&A's pictures and certification, IGI Antwerp does!

 

[robbe]

-----------------


Say a seller has a diamond which GIA graded G/I1. Say that dealer then submits to EGL or IGI who susequently gives that stone an F/SI2.


------------------


this is a little naive of you. are you doubting igi's objectivity?


i don't, however i have always doubted gia's objectivity (even being among their top 20 clients):


here is why:


http://www.gia.edu/support/3749/financial_contributions.cfm




i copied the content of the page below. (enjoy & remember my company is somewhere on that list!)


-----------------------------------------------------



















Honor Roll of Donors: Financial Donors




Million Dollar Roundtable
$5,000,000 or More
Mouawad Family

$2,500,000 to $4,999,999
The De Beers Group
Nicholas F. Oppenheimer
Richard T. Liddicoat, G.G. *

$1,000,000 to $2,499,999
Anonymous
Assael International, Inc.
Salvador J. Assael
G. Robert Crowningshield, G.G.*
D. Swarovski & Co.
Helmut Swarovski
Rosy Blue, N.V.
Dilip Mehta
The Steinmetz Group of Companies
Beny Steinmetz
Stuller, Inc.
Matt Stuller
Tahiti Perles
Robert Wan
Tiffany & Co.

League of Honor
$500,000 to $999,999
Anonymous
Argyle Diamonds
Gordon Gilchrist
Cartier, Inc.
The JCK Shows and JCK Magazine
Dave Bonaparte
Frank Dallahan
Jewelers of America, Inc.
Matthew A. Runci
K. Mikimoto & Co. Ltd.
Toyohiko Mikimoto
Mikimoto (America) Co., Ltd.
Kikuichiro Ishii
South Sea Pearl Consortium, Ltd.
Vicenza Trade Fair
Andrea Turcato
Giovanni Lasagna
Carlo Dolcetta
World Gold Council

$250,000 to $499,999
ABN AMRO Bank
Peter Gross
Anna Martin
Christie’s
François Curiel
Fortunoff Fine Jewelry
Esther Fortunoff Greene
Helene Fortunoff
Ruth Fortunoff Cooper
Graff Diamonds, Ltd.
Laurence Graff
Hearts on Fire
Glenn Rothman
Susan Rothman
Japan Pearl Promotion Society
Jewelers Mutual Insurance Co.
Ronald Harder
Kwiat, Roisen & Ferman
Symon Ferman
David Kwiat
Lowell Kwiat
Sheldon Kwiat
Jacques Roisen
Kyocera Corporation
Kazuo Inamori
P. Lançon, S.A
Georges Ruiz
Perles de Tahiti G.I.E.
Martin Coeroli
Schachter & Namdar Group
David Namdar
Leo Schachter
Michael M. Scott
Tasaki Shinju Co., Ltd.
Shunsaku Tasaki

$100,000 to $249,999
American Gem Trade Association
BHP Billiton Diamonds, Inc.
Terry Janes
Graham Nicholls
Kowie Strauss
Boghossian, S.A.
Albert Boghossian
Jean Boghossian
William E. Boyajian, G.G.*
Chatham Created Gems, Inc.
Thomas H. Chatham
Codiam & Rand
Stephen D. Cohen
Cora Diamond Corporation
Ara Arslanian
Ralph Destino
E. Schreiber Inc.
Norbert Steinmetz
Eurostar Diamond Traders N.V.
Kaushik Mehta
Fred Leighton, Ltd.
Fred Leighton
Galaxy Diamond
Zvi Gutentag
Gembel European Sales NV
Rashmi Mehta
Dr. Edward J. Gübelin
International Jewelers Block & Fine Arts Insurance Services, Inc.
Howard Herzog
Ishaia Trading Corporation
David Gol
Ishaia Gol
Jewelry.com, a division of Andin International, Inc.
Ofer Azrielant
Julius Klein Diamonds, Inc.
Martin Klein
The Kazanjian Foundation
Lee Michaels Fine Jewelry
Lee Michael Berg
Lorenzo Jewelry Manufacturers (H.K.), Ltd.
Lorenzo Yih
Louis Glick Diamond Corporation
Louis Glick
Lux Bond & Green
John A. Green
Marc A. Green
M. Fabrikant & Sons, Inc.
Susan Fabrikant, Ph.D.
Michael Beaudry, Inc.
Michael Beaudry
M.J. Christensen Diamond Centers
Cliff Miller
Platinum Guild International
Premier Gem Corporation New York
Marvin Samuels
Premier Gems Trading Co., Ltd.
Wanthani Inkatanuvat
Rio Grande
Hugh Bell
Rough Diamond Traders, Inc.
Philippe Laub
Joseph H. Samuel, Jr. and the DeYoung Family
Sierra Gem Diamonds
Sotheby’s
Sterling Jewelers
Terry Burman
Susan Eisen Fine Jewelry & Watches
Susan Eisen, G.G.
Tse Sui Luen Jewellery Co., Ltd.
Tse Sui Luen
Tycoon Cut Diamonds
Toros Kejejian
Toros Z. Kejejian
Chirag Shah
VNU Business Media
William Goldberg Diamond Corporation
William Goldberg
Zale Corporation
Mary L. Fortè

Financial Donors: $50,000 to $99,999
Anonymous (2)
Amira Aya, N.V.
B. C. Clark, Inc.
Blenheim Holdings, Inc.
Nicolas Chatila, G.J.G.
Derco Jewelers
Diamond Promotion Service
Forty Seventh Fifth Company LLC
Hasenfeld-Stein, Inc.
Kennecott Exploration Company
Messe Basel
Suberi Brothers, Inc.

Financial Donors: $25,000 to $49,999
Anonymous
Ben Bridge Jeweler
Paul and Clair Campbell
Carlyle & Co. Jewelers
Citra Trading Corporation
Diamond Industry Steering Committee
Diamond Manufacturers & Importers Association of America
Charles Felix
Elliot Friman
GIA Japan
Kelly Hyslop, M.D.
Independent Jewelers Organization
J.C. Penney Company, Inc.
Susan M. Jacques, G.G., F.G.A.
Jerry Blickman, Inc.
George Carter Jessop
Manhattan GIA Alumni Chapter
North Texas GIA Alumni Chapter
Olympic Diamond Corporation
Professional Jeweler
Gabriel S. Tolkowsky
Trillion Diamond Company
United Cutting & Marketing
Courtney A. Walker
Benjamin Zucker

Financial Donors: $10,000 to $24,999
Anonymous (2)
Richard Agnew
American Gem Society
Amsterdam Sauer Ltd., Inc.
Andrew Cohen S.A.
Antwerp Diamond Bank
Aron Kaufman & Co., Inc.
Barry S. Block, G.G.
Bank Leumi USA
Arnold H. Bockstruck, G.G., C.G.
Brinks Incorporated
Carlton G. Broer, Jr.
Gordon E. Brown, Jr., Ph.D.
Byron C. Butler, G.G., M.D.
Santpal Singh Chawla, G.G.
Diamond Dealers Club
Richard B. Drucker, G.G.
Dynamic Diamond Corp.
ENH International, Inc.
Pascal J. Entremont, D.U.G.
Chasseur de Pierres
Europa Star/Couture
International Jeweler
Fancy Collection Ltd.
Avi Nathanel
Dennis Foltz, G.G.
Michael Frieze
Galaxy USA, Inc.
GemKey (Thailand) Co., Ltd.
Eli Haas
The Hadley and Marion Stuart Foundation
Hagop Baghdadlian, Ltd.
Elizabeth R. Hardy, G.G., C.G.A
Helzberg Diamonds
House of Diamonds
HSBC Bank USA
I.B. Goodman Foundation
I.G.I.
Independent Gemological Laboratories
J. Klagsbrun, Inc.
Andrew Johnson
Joseph Gad, Inc.
K.R. Gems & Diamonds International
George R. Kaplan
Kashikey Co., Ltd.
Kazanjian Bros., Inc.
Koll Construction
Bert Krashes, G.G., C.G.
L.I.D. Ltd.
LLD USA, LLC
Frank H. Maier, Jr., C.G.
Vince and Averil Manson
Manufacturing Jewelers & Suppliers of America
Stanley J. Marcus, G.G.
Mazediam, b.v.b.a.
Modern Jeweler
Moussaieff Jewelers, Ltd.
MVI Marketing, Ltd.
Roland Naftule
Nippon Gem Society
Glenn R. Nord, G.G.
OcciGems, Inc.
Phillips, de Pury & Company
Martin Rapaport
Rio Tinto Diamonds, NV
Ronald Abram, Ltd.
Samuel Gordon Jewelers & Diamond
Masaaki F. Shibano, G.G.
Bruce Smith, Ltd.
Yasukazu Suwa, G.G.
TJF – Trends + Jewelry Forecasting
Tahitian Pearl Association, Inc.
Suzanne Tennenbaum
The Texas Lone Star Alumni Chapter
Thai Gem & Jewelry Traders Association
Thomas Färber S.A.
Starla Turner, G.G.
Tyringham Investments Ltd.
Arline B. Wolf
Wolf, Block, Schorr & Solis-Cohen LLP
Ron Yehuda
Thomas C. Yonelunas, G.G.

Financial Donors: $5,000 to $9,999
Alumni Association of Japan
Richard E. Baron
Baume & Mercier, Inc.
Bonas & Co. Ltd.
Borsheim’s Fine Jewelry & Gifts
Catherine L. Brandt, G.G.
Margaret Carl Swirles, M.D.
Diamex, Inc.
Diamond Information Center
Diamond Manufacturers, Inc.
Jim F. Ferguson, G.G.
Fink’s Jewelers, Inc.
Werner E. Frischknecht, G.G.
Charles Fryer
Fullcut Manufacturers, Inc.
Gad International, Ltd.
Milton Gralla
Hamilton Jewelers
Honora Industries
Joel Schechter
I. Hennig & Co. (USA) Ltd.
Yoon Hee Ji
Leslie S. Johnson, G.G
JP Morgan Chase
Hidetaka Kato
Joseph S. Khafi, G.G.
Alan Klitzner
Tom L. Lee
Lieber, Levett, Koenig, Farese, Babcock Inc.
Lisa Adelle Design, Inc.
Marc Lazar, Inc.
MBNA Marketing Systems
Movado Group, Inc.
National Jeweler
Ohio Jewelers Association
Paul H. Gesswein & Co., Inc.
Rolex Watch .S.A., Inc.
James Rosenheim
Samuels Jewelers
Hyman Savinar
Masaaki Tomonaga
Steve Ulatowski
Victor Settings & Joseph Castings, Inc.
Vivid Collection
W.B. David & Co., Inc.
Arthur Wein
Robert B. Westover
Wolf, Block, Schorr & Solis-Cohen LLP
Women’s Jewelry Association
Thomas Yuk Ming Wong

Financial Donors: $1,000 to $4,999
Anonymous (3)
A.F. Greenwood Company, Inc.
Jack S.D. Abraham
Rafael Aharoni
John and Sharon Alexander, Telford, Adams and Alexander
Alexander & Alexander
Laura A. Allen
Takeji Amai, G.G.
American Gem Corp.
American Trading Enterprises
American Web
Andin International, Inc.
Alexander Angelle
Arthur J. Gallagher & Company
Brenda G. Atkins
Australian Pearl Centre USA, Inc.
Backes & Strauss (Antwerp) N.V.
Paul G. Bailey
David M. Baker, G.G.
William and Donna Baker
Patrick B. Ball, G.G.
Cortney and Patrick Balzan
Richard E. Baron
Ricardo and Karen Basta, E. Eichberg Jewelers, Inc.
Baume & Mercier, Inc.
The Bell Group
Lilliane Benadiba Moses
Diana Benoit Seegrove
Bernard Grosz, Inc.
Marcelo Bernardes
Jonathan S. Birnbach
G. Paul Birtig, G.G.
Mr. and Mrs. Hassan Bissat
John Douglas Block
Irmgard (Irmi) Blum
Abraham Blumenberg
Edward Boehm
Ethel Mae Bradbury
Brilliant Trading Co.
Arthur C. Brom
Kenneth S. Brown
Jorge Luis Brusa
Jerry and Claudia Buckley
Pamela I. Buie
Bulgari Corporation of America
Sarah Arlynn Burns
Bob and Eddie Buscher
Joseph D. Buttross, Jr, G.G.
California Bank & Trust
California Jewelers Association
Canadian Jeweller
Dalton Canelhas
Carl K. Gumpert, Inc.
Charles and Betty Carmona
Carrera Casting Corp.
Mary Beth Carter
Sheryl S. Cashmore, G.G.
Sam L. Cavarretta
Wilma J. Cecil
Celtic Resources, Inc.
Centurion Jewelers
Genevieve Champana
Charles Chan
Philip Chang, G.G.
Charles & Colvard, Ltd.
Thomas Chatham
China Pearl
Carol C. Chiu, G.G., F.G.A.
Mira S. Choi
Chow Tai Fook Jewellery Co., Ltd.
Stanley E. Church
Enrique A. Cisneros
Citizen Watch Company of America, Inc.
Irving D. Clark, G.G.
Michael and Susan Clary
Clyde Duneier, Inc
Barry and Paul Cohen, CIB Insurance Services Brokers, Intl., LLC
David Cohen, Rafco International
Patricia Ann and Dan Cole
Colormasters Precious Jewelry
J. Edward Condon
Tom and Tammy Costello
William and G. Dawn Cottingham
Cowley & Chidester
George Crevoshay
Mack H. Criddell
CRU Publishing, Ltd.
Mark Curtis, Esq.
D’Elia & Tasaki Co. Ltd.
Michael Vincent Daligdig
Lisa H. Danford, G.G., C.G.A.
David Fiskus & Sons
David Humphrey Fine Jewels, Ltd.
Max Davis
Armando de Peralta, Jr.
Alan P. DeGhionno, G.G.
Dino G. DeGhionno, G.G.
Deloitte
Steven M. Dendy
James Robert Deren
Alfred W. DeScenza
Chris P. Dialynas
Diamond Manufacturers, Inc.
Dona Mary Dirlam
Yoshiko Doi
Shreyas Kirtilal Doshi
Clyde Duneier
Victoria duPont, G.G.
Robert A. Earnest, G.G., F.G.A.
Richard A. Eberhardt
In Memory of Robert F. Effler (G.G. Class of November 1979)
Jerry R. Ehrenwald, G.G.
Eileen and Ken of Diamonds ’n Dunes
E. J. De La Rosa & Co., Inc.
Elle & Mirabella
Gary and Susan Elliott
Herbert C. Ende, Jr., G.G.
Ralph Esmerian
Michel Farah
Michelle & Jeffrey Fink
Fischer Diamonds, Inc.
Ruth C. Fitzgerald
Toby L. Fitzkee, G.G.
Fleet Bank
Don and Irene Foster
Frank Mastoloni & Sons, Inc.
Sada Fujita
Michio Fukui
Fukui Diamond Inc.
G.M. Pollack & Sons
Jesse Gallegos
Ruth A. Garcia
GemEx Systems, Inc.
Gemmological Association of All Japan
Gemological Products Company
GIA IT Department Team
Gioielli D’Anna S.R.L.
Giovane Ltd.
Guido M. Giovannini-Torelli
Arthur F. Gleim, G.G., C.G.
Shoshana Gol
Madeline L. Goldberg
Golden Gate Chapter Alumni Association
Goodman & Sons Jewelers, Hampton, Williamsburg, VA
Ben Gordon, G.G.
Emanuel Gordon
Susan Gottridge
Hershel M. Graubart
Gray Cary Ware & Freidenrich, LLP
Jennifer A. Gritzmacher, G.G.
Stanley M. Grossbard
Eric Grossbardt
Gübelin Gem Lab Ltd.
Gumuchian Fils
Phil S. Gunton
Rolland P. Gustafson, G.G., C.G.
H. Sena (PTE), Ltd.
Otto H. Haengel
Hamilton Jewelers
Linda Ellis Harmeling
Harmon Nelson Design, Inc.
Patricia D. Harris
Rex Harris
Harry Winston, Inc.
James T. Hartstein
Chang Hatta
Thomas P. Haywood
Jerome Heidenreich
June A. Herman
Kristopher R. Hernandez
Bruce B. Hill
Gary S. Hill, G.G.
Julian C. Himes
Henry Ho, G.G.
Cheryl and Peter Ho, Megan and Katie
David P. Hogue
Holly K. Croft Designs
Beth A. Honderd-Haan
Bruce Honer, G.G.
Kil Pyo Hong
Ben Jen Hoo, G.G.
HSBC Republic Bank (Suisse) S.A.
Robert and Kathy Huckaby
Dr. Cornelius S. Hurlbut
I.B. Goodman Foundation
Hiroshi Ikeda, G.G.
Mr. and Mrs. Lester Inbinder
In Memory of Gerald Eugene “Jerry” Ingram
Tim and Carrie Jackson
Jacob Dain Diamond-Mark Bornstein, M.S., G.G.
Rhonda A. Jacobson, G.G.
Japan Jewelry Craft School
Jewelers Vigilance Committee
Jewelers’ Security Alliance
Jewelex NY Ltd.
Yvonne J. Johnson, G.G.
Jose Hess, Inc.
William Junkin
Harry P. Justice, Jr.
Benjamin Kaiser
Steven Kaiser
Vivek Kala
Robert E. Kane
Jason Chia-Hsin Kao, G.G.
Jeanette Kekahbah
Alice S. Keller
Kristen Kelley, G.G.
Dong-Keuk Kim, G.G., Lux Gem Corporation
Kathryn Kimmel
King’s Jewelry
Martin Kirschenbaum
Kirschstein, Ottinger, Israel & Schiffmiller, P.C.
Kevin E. Kiska, G.G.
Alan F. Kleinberg
Zbigniew and Malgorzata Kluch
Vartkess Knadjian, Backes & Strauss
Richard M. Knox
Richard Yiu-Wai Ko, G.G., F.G.A.
Raju Kothari
Pansy D. Kraus, G.G., F.G.A.
Linda L. Ku
Kubér Mfg. Inc.
Audrey Kurniawan
Keith Kwan
Larry and Debra Lambert
Dianne M. Landis
Ward Landrigan
Kathy G. Lange, G.G.
Justin and Caylyn Lanzl
Dave Lapa
Bill and Jeanne Larson
Chessy N. Latendresse, G.G.
Gina Latendresse, G.J.G.
John R. Latendresse
Renee N. Latendresse
Philippe Laub, Philippe Diamond Corp.
Lazare Kaplan International, Inc.
Sharon L. Lechter
Eric H. Lee, G.J.G.
Mara N. Leighton
Leo Robbins & Sons Inc.
Allison Levine
Alfred A. Levinson
Kimberly B. Levinson
Herb and Anne Lewis
Lieber & Solow Ltd.
Lieber, Levett, Koenig, Farese, Babcock Inc.
Philip F. Lindner
Elizabeth J. Linsenmeyer, G.G., C.G.A.
Simone Lipton
James S. Littman
Reva and John S. Lizzadro
Anne M. Long, G.G.
Los Angeles Alumni Chapter
Amanda J. Luke
Jane A. Lynch
Macy’s West
The MainStreet Group at Smith Barney
Yoshiko Narukawa Mamino, G.G.
Manny Gordon Trading
In Memory of Vince Manson
Christine M. Marcucci
David Marcus
Stanley J. Marcus, G.G.
Roger Marks, Rogers Jewelry Co.
Carroll Martin, M. D., G.G.
Martin Kirschenbaum, Inc.
Doug and Nancy McDowell, Mémoire
Richard and Rosanne McKenna
Andrea McShane
Harshad R. Mehta
Walter J. Meier
Yianni B. Melas, G.G.
Mercury Ring Corporation
Cliff and Darlene Miller
Stuart P. Milter
Philip Minsky, C.G.A.
Elise and Bob Misiorowski
Jane M. Mitchell, G.G.
Mr. and Mrs. Norman K. Monteau
Montgomery Ward Foundation
Seung-Hae Moon
Barbara L. Mooty
Moses Jewelers
Saeed Motiwala, G.G.
Shoaib Motiwala, G.J.G.
Jacques Mouw
Shunji Murakami, G.G.
Ann and Greg Myer
Morihiro Nagahori
Elsie Naitoh
Maria K. Nakaji
Nancy B & Company
National Jeweler
Anneliese M. Nefos
Mona Lee Nesseth, G.G.
New York State Jewelers Association
Nancy L. Nichols
William P. Nichols, Jr., G.G.
North American Gem Carvers
Northwest Travelers’ Assoc.
Patricia M. Oakes
Hui Nam Oh, G.G.
Olympic Diamond Corporation
Shigeru Omori, G.G.
Leong Chi On, G.G.
OneService, Insured Shipping Solutions
Cheryl Lynn Orcutt-Mestas, G.G., A.J.P.
Orli Diamonds (Steinmetz USA)
Oscar Heyman & Bros., Inc.
Lillian Ostergard
Terri Ottaway
Overseas Diamonds NV
Bette and Raymond Page
Pala International, Inc.
William L. Pankey
Paul H. Gesswein & Co., Inc.
Pearls Katsuyama Co.
Frank Perez
Nissan Perla
Mary Anna Petrick, G.G.
Frank W. Petrlik
Jon Phillips, G.G.
Phillips Nizer LLP
Wayne T. Pierce
Stanley C. Pollack
Pranda Jewelry Public Co. Ltd
Precious Link
Premier Diamond Cutting, Ltd.
Professional Jeweler
Claudio Quattrini, G.G.
QVC, Inc.
Rahaminov Diamonds, Inc.
Ephraim Raviv
Avi Raz, A & Z Pearls
Red Apple Companies, Inc.
Red Emerald (Gib) Ltd.
Jack Reiss
Jim A. Replogle
Richard P. Rhodes
Steve Robbins, Robbins Bros.
Francesco Roberto, Capellaro & Co. SPA
Jeffrey M. Roberts
Roel Construction Company
Len and Leslie Rogozinski
Bev Hayes Ross
George R. Rossman, Ph.D.
Irv and Muriel Roston
J.N. Rotenberg
Paul R. Rousseau, Gemologist
Marina Royce
S.A. Kitsinian, Inc.
Ruth P. Sair Segev
Michael A. Saldivar
Samdimon, Inc. New York
Samuel Aaron International
Robert and Cynthia Sanders
Sara Gem Corp.
Sarah Leonard Fine Jewelers
Stuart K. Scantlin
Thomas M. Schneider
George A. Schuetz, Jr.
John and Helen Seelig
Monica Sepulveda
Shaikha Jewellers
Leannah Leah Shank
Kallya Gopalkrishna Shenoy
David Sherman, Paraiba Enterprises, Inc.
Shreve, Crump & Low
Siba Corp.
Lee Scott Siegelson
Siegelson’s Diamonds, Inc.
Stephen and Eileen Silver, S.H. Silver Company
Lewis and Alice Silverberg
Sirius Diamonds Ltd.
Jimmy Ray and Wendy Smith
David So
Rachel M. Sobo-Schindler, G.J.G.
Patricia A. Spadea
Robert E. Spratford
Mr. Pornsit and Dr. Sunee Sriorathaikul
Helen A. Stanley
Marilyn L. Stark
Stephen L. Singer, Inc.
Hans Stern
David G. Steven
Sybil Stoller
Judy L. Strick
Studio Creaius
SuashishStar, Inc.
Suna Bros., Inc.
Pamela Sutton
Dawn M. Swainston
Vanessa D. Swarovski, Jorge M. Piedra
Patricia and Knute Syvrud
Fujio Takada
Junko Takano
Sadanobu Takatani, G.G.
Desireé K. Takiguchi
Daisuke Tanaka
Rikio Tanaka, G.G.
Elliot Tannenbaum and Eric Austein
Karen C. Taylor
Thelen Reid & Priest, LLP
Thomas Färber SA
Anelisa Thompson
TIAA-CREF Trust Company, FSB
Jan and Dan Tilton
Timothy Meier Design
In Memory of Kaj Toft
Amy Toosley
Touraine Family Trust
Traditional Jewelers
Hester Turner, Ph.D.
The Ueberroth Family Foundation
Universal Fine Jewelry
US Synthetic Corporation
Nobuhiro Uyeda, G.G.
Shintaro Uyeda
Kimberly Vagner
Van Cott Jewelers
Vancouver Alumni Chapter
Ronald Vanderlinden
Vanity Fair - Conde Nast
Marshall Varon
Vichian Veerasaksri, G.G., Aquarius Gems Trading Co., Ltd.
Ventana Mining Company
Silvano Versino
Vogue
Jacques Voorhees
W Magazine
W. Nagel
W.B. David & Co., Inc.
Sharon A. Wakefield, G.G.
Waldman Diamond Co.
Peggy Ann Wallace
John and Christy Walton
August O. Weilbach
Marc Weill
Mortimer L. Weisenfeld
Orasa and Robert Weldon
Don C. Wendel, Jr.
Coralyn W. Whitney
Phyllis M. Williams
Richard and Joan Wilson
Winston & Strawn
Wisconsin Jewelers Association
Lin-Huang Wong, Lifetimepiece.com
Alfred Woodill
Raulette Woods
Robert and Linda Wueste
Kelly Ann Yantzer and Family
Phillip M. Yantzer, G.G.
Billie Yates
Lorenzo Yih
Yohalem Gillman & Company LLP
David and Sybil Yurman, Humanitarian Arts Foundation
Maria Zacchi
Raymond J. Zimmerman
Zions Bank, Salt Lake City, Utah

The Legacy Society
Paul G. Bailey
The Estate of John W. Bartlett
William E. Boyajian, G.G.
G. Robert Crowningshield, G.G.
Gail Brett Levine, G.G.
The Estate of Richard T. Liddicoat
The Estate of James R. McShane
Susan Schwartz

 

[diamondsbylauren]

First let me say that IGI is an outstanding organization- they perform a valuable service to the trade, and to consumers.


IGI and GIA do indeed use the same parameters when grading diamonds.






My experience is primarily in the US market, but here's what I've seen.


In France, it is not common to see a woman wearing a 1.00ct diamond.


In Paris I went to some very fine stores and the selection of diamonds was pitiful compared to a typical US store.


Same in Rome, Venice, Amsterdam, London.....


I 've never been to the Far East, or places like Dubai, where I understand a lot of high dollar diamonds are sold. I don't know what labs they depend on there.




As I said, IGI is a very fine organization. And they might very well take exception to my opinion- but here in NYC, a 2.00ct diamond graded D/VS1 by IGI will be worth considerably less than a 2.00 carat diamond graded D/VS1 by GIA- even if the diamonds are identical.


Maybe it's precisely GIA's own discrepancy, but if you get a D, you'd never give the stone for a re-check for fear they might see it as an E next time- the grades are quite close.




Now, let's say you've got a 2.00 K/SI1. Here, the IGI stone will be worth just as much as the GIA graded stone.


Because it's a $8K diamond VS a $25K+ dollar diamond.


Proving a K pedigree is a lot easier than proving a D.


The difference between a D and an E in this theoretical 2.00D/VS1 could be about $4000 ( say betwen $29K to $25K)- so proving it- today in America, you generally need a GIA report.


I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just commenting on the realites of the market here




Of course it is GI AMERICA- so maybe I ( international)GI is the way to go- let's include everyone!


Robbe- no disrespect intended - I've always wondered if I gave GIA a cool mil would my fancy lights become intenses...hehehehe Kidding!!!!!

 

[SFDavey]

AWESOME info folks!

Here's the low-down on the diamond I am picking up tomorrow in a platinum solitaire setting...

The jeweler came recommended to me. I went and say him, liked him, decided he would be my guy.

He showed me some diamonds to test me, some diamonds to educate me, and he parted with him having a good understandign of what I was looking for. I insisted that I wanted a stone with a certificate. I did not specify GIA, EGL, AGS.

He called me up with this...

IGI certified
Princess cut
.85 carats
H color
VVS2 clarity

I have seen the stone and it is beautiful. I liked it right away and I've minimized my doubts in the passing four weeks since I first saw it.

I asked my gal to marry me while in Kuaui on the Na Pali coast overlooking the Nualolo valley from above on a mostly sunny day. She said yes, so I've taken time to find the right stone. I even let her see it while loose and she went nuts. I kinda feel a little guilty for springing the question on her in such a sure-thing spot without the rock, but I think she'll get over that once the stone is on her hand!

I am picking it up tomorrow. I'll post a pic of it when I get a chance.

Thanks again for all the info, y'all ROCK!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

i am very happy for you SFD - congat's

I feel we are making some head way in education here.

If I was buying a H&A's diamond off the paper then IGI is the only non Japanese lab that puts a H&A's photo on the cert. So that is a no brainer David

And as for the price difference - would someone like to find the half a dozen stones i reported on last year that i sent to both IGI and GIA please. You will see if you do a Rap price comparison that the GIA grades (which were both lower and in one case higher than IGI's) that given the discount for IGI stones you would be far better off buying the non IGI stone for personal use.

For selling purposes, GIA adds something of its own brand value - but we should be very clear that there is no reason why consumers who do not intend to sell the stones should not save some money!
Buy GIA and you get to say "my diamond has a GIA cert" in a whiney voice, like the office girl who say's "my diamond is VVS< and yours is only SI". But never loose sight that you, as a consumer will most likely pay a premium for the whining privalege.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The first grade is GIA, the second is IGI

1 0.96 F SI1 E SI1

2 0.99 H VS2 G VS1

3 0.96 G SI1 G SI1

4 0.93 G SI1 H SI1

5 0.98 H VS2 H VS1

6 0.96 H SI2 G SI1

Using the Rapaport price list(tm) I found there is a 4.4% difference in prices quoted between GIA and IGI gradings (i.e. the grades of the IGI stones would on average sell for 4.4% more). But according to www.polishedprices.com/about/info.asp

Certificate
Factor
AGS 1.028
CGL 1.000
GIA 1.000
HRD 0.981
IGI 0.944
EGL 0.935
Now this means that the market discounts IGI by 5.6% and on my small survey of 6 stones the grade differences added up to 4.4%.
So the average consumer would have saved 1.2% buying an IGI stone over a GIA stone.

Since last year I have seen many GIA and IGI stones and I think it is fair to say that GIA is moving toward a consistency problem (but that is just my opinion). IGI is quicker and on most of the calls where I percieved there was a difference in mine and IGI's call we were splitting hairs. I have seen GIA stones where I would call it a whole grade or even two difference (looser).

 

[valeria101]

Yeah... those poor not-for-profits

(labs, or anthing else) I wouldn't account that status as a guarantee for anything, and lest of all credibility.

Anyway, this competition among certs is quite interesting, aside for the very moment when you actually need one !

So... Garry, are you saying that the discounts (EGL, IGI, HRD) or premium (AGS) applied to non-GIA certs already compensate for whatever bias the labs may have either in grading or in their market perception ? So... there is no such thing as a "bad" (or undesirable) cert?

There are two things that come to my mind when writing this:
#1: at least GIA (maybe the others too?) takes care of it's consistency by recording the stones and checking against re-submission (so experiments to test the actual consistency of grading against it's own certs become tricky). this means that one and the same stone will always withstand re-certification by the same lab but not by another. With some conceivable inconsistency in garding (human as is), of course limited samples will always show differences betwen labs!

#2: prices for neigbouring color and clarity grades overlap somewhat, so the variation of grading by at most one grade is taken care of by pricing anyway...This becomes safer for medium and lower color and calrity grades (down G and down VVS2 that is).


Is there any outrageous mistake in my claims ?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I think we understand each other Ana

 

[SFDavey]

The biggest bragging (whining) rights my gal will have is that her rock is soooo sparkly! That is the biggest factor involved here for her.

I asked my dealer to find me a stone with a certificate just on a matter of principle more than anything else. Knowing the relative comparisons of various grading agencies is extremely valuable information for future purchases or to help advise friends. There seems to be a huge WAVE of proposals popping up amongst my friends.

Information like this...
______________________________

Certificate
Factor
AGS 1.028
CGL 1.000
GIA 1.000
HRD 0.981
IGI 0.944
EGL 0.935
______________________________

...is ENORMOUSLY helpful to understanding how the various grading agencies relate to each other in terms of perceived value of the stone.

When she gets her stone appraised (which she will for insurance, of course), I'll post the value of the appraisal vs. the price I paid as a percentage for reference here.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

The one trend in this thread I find off base is the notion that there is some formula for determining the discount for a diamond with an IGI report VS one with a GIA.



Buy the diamond, not the paper is great advice.

But that does not mean that folks should ignore the lab report.

High dollar stones with IGI reports raise red flags for me.

 

[Brian Knox]

I quess I have to allow for the possibility that things may be totally different on the other side of the pond, but I thought I was in some type of twilight zone when I read the posts suggesting GIA and IGI were somehow comparable or equal.

In the USA these two labs do not belong in the same sentance.

IMO

 

[oldminer]

I agree with DiamondbyLauren. The diamond is the principal investment one is making. The paperwork should help you, but there are labs that just don't reach the level of GIA or AGS. Truthfully it does not matter a great deal. These secondary labs are very successful and fill a definite need in the industry and to the consumer.

You need to find the right stone and the right documentation to suit you own needs. If I buy a diamond for personal use, I don't require any lab report. If it has a lab report already, it can be from any lab. It does not really matter to me because I am only buying the diamond. A consumer has a very different need which we must respect, too. I urge consumers to keep an open mind on the documentation issue, but to be aware that not every lab paper is identical in quality, no more than every G-VS1 diamond is identical in quality.

 

[SFDavey]

The lab report I required was more for a few super simple reasons that areeasy toudnerstand once explained...
1. FIRST time diamond buyer
2. I'm buying directly from a jeweler, not a store. It's between me and a single person.
3. I knew NOTHING about diamonds just 4 months ago. Now I know all of next to nothing. Seems to me experience is the greatest teacher for diamonds.
4. I want a diamond that has more of a "history". I do not know where stones come from in general and it's reassuring to know that this one has been "recorded".
5. See Number 1 above again!

I am VERY excited to see the product this afternoon. Does it show? I've got my cashier's check in pocket and I am ready to ROLL!

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Hi SF-


Sorry if this conversation veered off course- getting into the finer points of IGI is not really what you needed to know.


In your case, it looks as though an IGI report will fulfill ALL your expectations.




Best of luck- and please let us know how it goes!

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 5/12/2004 3:46:19 PM SFDavey wrote:



Information like this...
______________________________

Certificate
Factor
AGS 1.028
CGL 1.000
GIA 1.000
HRD 0.981
IGI 0.944
EGL 0.935

...is ENORMOUSLY helpful

----------------

SF, sorry to take this up, but your thread obviously took a life of it's own... and those numbers are very easy to cite, and not for the better-as far as I understand.

If so inclined, one can build up an entire 'conspiracy theory' of labs and grading. Until now, we know that some labs' label make stones cheaper, and since buyers know this and sellers know buyers know, only the worse stones may go to 'discount labs'.

But wait! doesn't it make sense to send visually undesirable stones to GIA since the lab name's alone persuades consumers that the stone is 'good' and makes them pay more? Sure does... and the cert will never be able to say what the stone looks like and the price is for those three letters o the cert's header.

With numbers and grades only to go by (as some internet buyers may contend with), it still sounds better to get an idea what the stone looks like and judge the lab latter. Possible? Sure that - this is why some sellers take more pain to present their stones than others.



----------------

if one is very, very bored, here goes an example of the conspiracy (summed-up above anyway) at work:

For example, take one EGL's 1carat, H-VS1. One may want to compare it's price with a GIA stone and conclude that the EGL piece should be 17% cheaper. But with some 20-30% variation in price among GIA stones listed, what would that 17% discount say? Applied to the average GIA price, the result would still be among the price range for GIA stones, and between two H-VS1, one GIA, one EGL certified and both of the same price, what's better?

Given the reputation of the labs alone (and no stones to look at), each time the GIA certified stone would win against an EGL stone with the same certified parameters and price. So only those EGL stones that are cheaper than ANY comparable GIA stone available should be considered. Right? No sure, but since a list of factors as above is now common knowledge for buyers and sellers know it (at least PS browsers from both camps do by now)any seller could think this way and, who knows, maybe Leonid would adjust the database listings too to fit the general wisdom

Now, why am I not surprised of the harsh but common implication that only those stones which would never get better prices anyway go to EGL? The argument is sound, but at no point does it refer to the poor diamonds - just the darn papers !

Neither cert describes what the stone looks like very well: it is not possible to build an image of the stone based on those certs. Buyers ca only build such an image if the seller tells them how - an unpleasant scenario where one has nothing better to do than trust the seller.

With no way to compare the diamond effectively based on the three words and four numbers on the GIA cert.. it' still better to move on to some better represented merchandise.

 

[SFDavey]

I've purchased the ring and she LOVED it. As it happens, her folks are in town and they LOVE it. As it also happens, there was a birthday party for a friend and they LOVE it.

So certificate or not, I am very happy with the purchase.

That being said, I have a few comments about the IGI certificate.
The certificate was issued in New York.
There is not alot of info on the stone, but here's what IS on the cert...
"Date of appraisal 2/18/04, Square mod brill cut, 5.14x5.03x3.77, .85 carats, near colorless (I), VVS2, Good Polish, Good Symetry, no treatment, est value *,***."
The jeweler supplied an appraisal with the stone in addition to the cert.
The appraisal listed the stone as...
(All the info above from the cert) with the exception of raising the color to H and the clarity to VVS1.

The price I paid vs the IGI stated value, set in platimnum "Tiffany" setting, was 47% paid vs. printed value.

The price I paid vs. the separate appraisal done was 58%.

I feel like I got a GREAT deal on this one. Whether I did or not, I feel great about the entire experience and would definitely send people I know to this guy.