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IGI Certification

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by SFDavey, May 11, 2004.

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  1. SFDavey
    Rough_Rock

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    by SFDavey » May 11, 2004
    I am looking to understand IGI certification''s place in relation to the other certificates out there.

    Would someone please help me to understand the relative merits and drawbacks of IGI''s certification of a diamond? I am picking up my gal''s engagement ring tomorrow and am curious to understand it as much as possible. It has an IGI cert.

    Many thanks,
    Davey
     
    


    


  2. Brian Knox
    Shiny_Rock
    Trade

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    by Brian Knox » May 11, 2004
    Hi Davey

    I am not a fan of the IGI reports.

    Although I am relatively new to this forum, I would venture a guess that you will not find many professional's that are fans of the IGI.

    Looking for something good to say, I would mention that IGI is better than nothing.
     
  3. Giangi
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Giangi » May 11, 2004
    Not necessarily. IGI has several franchises so we need to know which lab issued the report. IGI Antwerp is getting better and better and it's being widely used these days due to their modest cost and great deal of info containted in their reports (especially about cut). [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  4. diamondsbylauren
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by diamondsbylauren » May 11, 2004
    Hi Davey,


    As Brian mentioned, you will surely find a lot of folks bashing IGI.


    I feel that while IGI does not come close to equaling GIA's standards, they DO offer some valuable services to consumers.


    If someone sold you a diamond and claimed IGI is equivalent to GIA, they have done you a misservice.




    IGI will be able to tell you that your stone is natural, and has not been treated or enhanced-


    IGI will also issue a monetary appraisal. This too is controversial - mainly because it's really difficult to fix an accurate value on diamonds. Usually places that do this err on the high side- still, many consumers find a monetary figure valuable.




    SO- 1) Getting down to brass tacks- did your dealer explain IGI's benefits and shorfalls?


    2) Please let us know the Size color and clarity to give a better idea of what you're looking at.
     
    


    


  5. aljdewey
    Ideal_Rock

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    by aljdewey » May 11, 2004
    The IGI that I'm familiar with is the IGI that issues all the paper for Zales diamonds, etc. They have a reputation for being VERY soft on grading.




    The advantage of IGI is that you don't pay as much as you do for a top-shelf "pedigree" like AGS or GIA. The downfall.....your appraiser may grade the stone lower than IGI does, and that could impact the value of the price paid.




    Another disadvantage.....not as desirable on the market should you ever decide to part with this stone. One of the other posters here, Tincup, is trying to unload an IGI diamond, and he's finding there is little interest because of the weak paper of IGI.
     
  6. robbe
    Shiny_Rock

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    by robbe » May 11, 2004
    sfdavey, the igi is equivalent to gia, hrd except it is a privately owned organisation (most others are non-profit).


    i have hundreds of diamonds at these 3 labs permanently and they are on the same line.


    some of my clients prefer gia, some hrd and some igi.


    it depends of the market area where the stones are sold, it depends of the type of stones ect.


    if you don't feel safe because of what some say here, take the stone to an appraiser and ask for validation.


    good luck, robbe
     
  7. fire&ice
    Ideal_Rock

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    by fire&ice » May 11, 2004
    Well, I bought a small diamond on ebay that came with an IGI cert. I won't pretend to grade this diamond. But, it is a pleasing white clean stone (graded G/SI1).

    That said, the cert came with quite a bit of information that a GIA cert lacks. They graded the Cut as Ideal. They listed the:
    Table %
    Girdle thicknes
    Crown % & degree
    Pavillion % & degree
    And all the regular stuff (like sym/polish,etc)

    Funny, it does not state Fluor. lack of or presence of.
     
  8. Garry H (Cut Nut)
    Super_Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » May 11, 2004
    Yes F&I, IGI offer various types of certificates for whatever the market demands.

    And while I do not agree with the broad range of their parameters for 'very good' cut quality - they do avoid the other problem which is creating waste by restricting the proportions that are "said" to produce "ideal cut".

    They offer a far bigger range of possabilities for a polisher who knows what they are doing to make beautiful stones, than say a system like AGS or R&T's buying proceedure.
     
  9. diamondsbylauren
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by diamondsbylauren » May 11, 2004






    In my opinoin robbe is way off base suggesting the IGI is the equivalent to GIA- this is not the case in the American market, not even close.



    As aljdewey points out, selling a diamond with an IGI report is a completely different story than selling a diamond with a GIA report.



    As far as the additonal measurements as compared to GIA- I believe that this is not relavant-



    Garry- I don't think any cutters are working to try and meet IGI's standards- AGS, yes, but IGI, nah.



    After all, anyone shopping for a H&A stone would laugh at an IGI report- so therfore it really makes no difference what they call "ideal"





     
  10. fire&ice
    Ideal_Rock

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    by fire&ice » May 11, 2004
     
    


    


  11. fire&ice
    Ideal_Rock

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    by fire&ice » May 11, 2004
     
  12. diamondsbylauren
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by diamondsbylauren » May 11, 2004
    F&I- I never meant imply that measurements are not important as a rule- or that a diamond with an IGI or EGL report can't be awesome- even nicer than an AGS0 cut grade. People should always buy the diamond, not the paper.




    My point is that for people looking for H&A, the fact of life is an AGS report- no?




    The reason that this conversation is important is that this aspect of diamond buying can be abused by a seller.


    Say a seller has a diamond which GIA graded G/I1. Say that dealer then submits to EGL or IGI who susequently gives that stone an F/SI2.


    Now the dealer has a much more expensive stone to sell- UNLESS- the buyer is familiar with this conversation.




    Again- it's not that an IGI "ideal" cut is any better or worse than an AGS 0- but in the market, the only way to prove this pedigree is with an AGS report.




    What would y'all think of a H&A seller using IGI reports to hang their hat on?
     
  13. fire&ice
    Ideal_Rock

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    by fire&ice » May 11, 2004

    I wouldn't have a problem if it *really* checked out. I don't buy into the AGS hype.

    That said, I honestly don't know if my little IGI diamond is what it says it is on the cert. All I can say is that it's white, clean & a lovely pleasing cut. Be happy to send it to someone for an evaluation. Free of charge of course.[​IMG]
     
  14. robbe
    Shiny_Rock

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    by robbe » May 11, 2004
    ok, david, what i mean is the grading is equivalent between those 3 labs. they grade within the same lines. there are indeed small differences in the way they market themselves, in the way the expose themselves and in the way they are perceived, but i, as a manufacturer consider them equivalent in their way of grading.


    ------------


    selling a diamond with an IGI report is a completely different story than selling a diamond with a GIA report.


    --------------


    and selling a chevrolet is a completely different story than selling a bmw?


    you are selling diamonds, not reports.


    the report is only an opinion of the quality of the diamond you are selling.


    this opinion is called 'grading'.


    -------------




    Garry- I don't think any cutters are working to try and meet IGI's standards- AGS, yes, but IGI, nah.



    -----------------



    have you ever been outside the usa? i guess not. in belgium, israel, thailand, india, china they do...i do...



    cheers, robbe

     
  15. Stephan
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Stephan » May 11, 2004
    Why only AGS?
    AGS doesn't give H&A's pictures and certification, IGI Antwerp does!

    igicut.JPG
     
    


    


  16. robbe
    Shiny_Rock

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    by robbe » May 11, 2004
    -----------------


    Say a seller has a diamond which GIA graded G/I1. Say that dealer then submits to EGL or IGI who susequently gives that stone an F/SI2.


    ------------------


    this is a little naive of you. are you doubting igi's objectivity?


    i don't, however i have always doubted gia's objectivity (even being among their top 20 clients):


    here is why:


    http://www.gia.edu/support/3749/financial_contributions.cfm




    i copied the content of the page below. (enjoy & remember my company is somewhere on that list!)


    -----------------------------------------------------



















    Honor Roll of Donors: Financial Donors




    Million Dollar Roundtable
    $5,000,000 or More
    Mouawad Family

    $2,500,000 to $4,999,999
    The De Beers Group
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    The JCK Shows and JCK Magazine
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    Anonymous (3)
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    Vivek Kala
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    Jason Chia-Hsin Kao, G.G.
    Jeanette Kekahbah
    Alice S. Keller
    Kristen Kelley, G.G.
    Dong-Keuk Kim, G.G., Lux Gem Corporation
    Kathryn Kimmel
    King’s Jewelry
    Martin Kirschenbaum
    Kirschstein, Ottinger, Israel & Schiffmiller, P.C.
    Kevin E. Kiska, G.G.
    Alan F. Kleinberg
    Zbigniew and Malgorzata Kluch
    Vartkess Knadjian, Backes & Strauss
    Richard M. Knox
    Richard Yiu-Wai Ko, G.G., F.G.A.
    Raju Kothari
    Pansy D. Kraus, G.G., F.G.A.
    Linda L. Ku
    Kubér Mfg. Inc.
    Audrey Kurniawan
    Keith Kwan
    Larry and Debra Lambert
    Dianne M. Landis
    Ward Landrigan
    Kathy G. Lange, G.G.
    Justin and Caylyn Lanzl
    Dave Lapa
    Bill and Jeanne Larson
    Chessy N. Latendresse, G.G.
    Gina Latendresse, G.J.G.
    John R. Latendresse
    Renee N. Latendresse
    Philippe Laub, Philippe Diamond Corp.
    Lazare Kaplan International, Inc.
    Sharon L. Lechter
    Eric H. Lee, G.J.G.
    Mara N. Leighton
    Leo Robbins & Sons Inc.
    Allison Levine
    Alfred A. Levinson
    Kimberly B. Levinson
    Herb and Anne Lewis
    Lieber & Solow Ltd.
    Lieber, Levett, Koenig, Farese, Babcock Inc.
    Philip F. Lindner
    Elizabeth J. Linsenmeyer, G.G., C.G.A.
    Simone Lipton
    James S. Littman
    Reva and John S. Lizzadro
    Anne M. Long, G.G.
    Los Angeles Alumni Chapter
    Amanda J. Luke
    Jane A. Lynch
    Macy’s West
    The MainStreet Group at Smith Barney
    Yoshiko Narukawa Mamino, G.G.
    Manny Gordon Trading
    In Memory of Vince Manson
    Christine M. Marcucci
    David Marcus
    Stanley J. Marcus, G.G.
    Roger Marks, Rogers Jewelry Co.
    Carroll Martin, M. D., G.G.
    Martin Kirschenbaum, Inc.
    Doug and Nancy McDowell, Mémoire
    Richard and Rosanne McKenna
    Andrea McShane
    Harshad R. Mehta
    Walter J. Meier
    Yianni B. Melas, G.G.
    Mercury Ring Corporation
    Cliff and Darlene Miller
    Stuart P. Milter
    Philip Minsky, C.G.A.
    Elise and Bob Misiorowski
    Jane M. Mitchell, G.G.
    Mr. and Mrs. Norman K. Monteau
    Montgomery Ward Foundation
    Seung-Hae Moon
    Barbara L. Mooty
    Moses Jewelers
    Saeed Motiwala, G.G.
    Shoaib Motiwala, G.J.G.
    Jacques Mouw
    Shunji Murakami, G.G.
    Ann and Greg Myer
    Morihiro Nagahori
    Elsie Naitoh
    Maria K. Nakaji
    Nancy B & Company
    National Jeweler
    Anneliese M. Nefos
    Mona Lee Nesseth, G.G.
    New York State Jewelers Association
    Nancy L. Nichols
    William P. Nichols, Jr., G.G.
    North American Gem Carvers
    Northwest Travelers’ Assoc.
    Patricia M. Oakes
    Hui Nam Oh, G.G.
    Olympic Diamond Corporation
    Shigeru Omori, G.G.
    Leong Chi On, G.G.
    OneService, Insured Shipping Solutions
    Cheryl Lynn Orcutt-Mestas, G.G., A.J.P.
    Orli Diamonds (Steinmetz USA)
    Oscar Heyman & Bros., Inc.
    Lillian Ostergard
    Terri Ottaway
    Overseas Diamonds NV
    Bette and Raymond Page
    Pala International, Inc.
    William L. Pankey
    Paul H. Gesswein & Co., Inc.
    Pearls Katsuyama Co.
    Frank Perez
    Nissan Perla
    Mary Anna Petrick, G.G.
    Frank W. Petrlik
    Jon Phillips, G.G.
    Phillips Nizer LLP
    Wayne T. Pierce
    Stanley C. Pollack
    Pranda Jewelry Public Co. Ltd
    Precious Link
    Premier Diamond Cutting, Ltd.
    Professional Jeweler
    Claudio Quattrini, G.G.
    QVC, Inc.
    Rahaminov Diamonds, Inc.
    Ephraim Raviv
    Avi Raz, A & Z Pearls
    Red Apple Companies, Inc.
    Red Emerald (Gib) Ltd.
    Jack Reiss
    Jim A. Replogle
    Richard P. Rhodes
    Steve Robbins, Robbins Bros.
    Francesco Roberto, Capellaro & Co. SPA
    Jeffrey M. Roberts
    Roel Construction Company
    Len and Leslie Rogozinski
    Bev Hayes Ross
    George R. Rossman, Ph.D.
    Irv and Muriel Roston
    J.N. Rotenberg
    Paul R. Rousseau, Gemologist
    Marina Royce
    S.A. Kitsinian, Inc.
    Ruth P. Sair Segev
    Michael A. Saldivar
    Samdimon, Inc. New York
    Samuel Aaron International
    Robert and Cynthia Sanders
    Sara Gem Corp.
    Sarah Leonard Fine Jewelers
    Stuart K. Scantlin
    Thomas M. Schneider
    George A. Schuetz, Jr.
    John and Helen Seelig
    Monica Sepulveda
    Shaikha Jewellers
    Leannah Leah Shank
    Kallya Gopalkrishna Shenoy
    David Sherman, Paraiba Enterprises, Inc.
    Shreve, Crump & Low
    Siba Corp.
    Lee Scott Siegelson
    Siegelson’s Diamonds, Inc.
    Stephen and Eileen Silver, S.H. Silver Company
    Lewis and Alice Silverberg
    Sirius Diamonds Ltd.
    Jimmy Ray and Wendy Smith
    David So
    Rachel M. Sobo-Schindler, G.J.G.
    Patricia A. Spadea
    Robert E. Spratford
    Mr. Pornsit and Dr. Sunee Sriorathaikul
    Helen A. Stanley
    Marilyn L. Stark
    Stephen L. Singer, Inc.
    Hans Stern
    David G. Steven
    Sybil Stoller
    Judy L. Strick
    Studio Creaius
    SuashishStar, Inc.
    Suna Bros., Inc.
    Pamela Sutton
    Dawn M. Swainston
    Vanessa D. Swarovski, Jorge M. Piedra
    Patricia and Knute Syvrud
    Fujio Takada
    Junko Takano
    Sadanobu Takatani, G.G.
    Desireé K. Takiguchi
    Daisuke Tanaka
    Rikio Tanaka, G.G.
    Elliot Tannenbaum and Eric Austein
    Karen C. Taylor
    Thelen Reid & Priest, LLP
    Thomas Färber SA
    Anelisa Thompson
    TIAA-CREF Trust Company, FSB
    Jan and Dan Tilton
    Timothy Meier Design
    In Memory of Kaj Toft
    Amy Toosley
    Touraine Family Trust
    Traditional Jewelers
    Hester Turner, Ph.D.
    The Ueberroth Family Foundation
    Universal Fine Jewelry
    US Synthetic Corporation
    Nobuhiro Uyeda, G.G.
    Shintaro Uyeda
    Kimberly Vagner
    Van Cott Jewelers
    Vancouver Alumni Chapter
    Ronald Vanderlinden
    Vanity Fair - Conde Nast
    Marshall Varon
    Vichian Veerasaksri, G.G., Aquarius Gems Trading Co., Ltd.
    Ventana Mining Company
    Silvano Versino
    Vogue
    Jacques Voorhees
    W Magazine
    W. Nagel
    W.B. David & Co., Inc.
    Sharon A. Wakefield, G.G.
    Waldman Diamond Co.
    Peggy Ann Wallace
    John and Christy Walton
    August O. Weilbach
    Marc Weill
    Mortimer L. Weisenfeld
    Orasa and Robert Weldon
    Don C. Wendel, Jr.
    Coralyn W. Whitney
    Phyllis M. Williams
    Richard and Joan Wilson
    Winston & Strawn
    Wisconsin Jewelers Association
    Lin-Huang Wong, Lifetimepiece.com
    Alfred Woodill
    Raulette Woods
    Robert and Linda Wueste
    Kelly Ann Yantzer and Family
    Phillip M. Yantzer, G.G.
    Billie Yates
    Lorenzo Yih
    Yohalem Gillman & Company LLP
    David and Sybil Yurman, Humanitarian Arts Foundation
    Maria Zacchi
    Raymond J. Zimmerman
    Zions Bank, Salt Lake City, Utah

    The Legacy Society
    Paul G. Bailey
    The Estate of John W. Bartlett
    William E. Boyajian, G.G.
    G. Robert Crowningshield, G.G.
    Gail Brett Levine, G.G.
    The Estate of Richard T. Liddicoat
    The Estate of James R. McShane
    Susan Schwartz
     
  17. diamondsbylauren
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
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    by diamondsbylauren » May 11, 2004
    First let me say that IGI is an outstanding organization- they perform a valuable service to the trade, and to consumers.


    IGI and GIA do indeed use the same parameters when grading diamonds.






    My experience is primarily in the US market, but here's what I've seen.


    In France, it is not common to see a woman wearing a 1.00ct diamond.


    In Paris I went to some very fine stores and the selection of diamonds was pitiful compared to a typical US store.


    Same in Rome, Venice, Amsterdam, London.....


    I 've never been to the Far East, or places like Dubai, where I understand a lot of high dollar diamonds are sold. I don't know what labs they depend on there.




    As I said, IGI is a very fine organization. And they might very well take exception to my opinion- but here in NYC, a 2.00ct diamond graded D/VS1 by IGI will be worth considerably less than a 2.00 carat diamond graded D/VS1 by GIA- even if the diamonds are identical.


    Maybe it's precisely GIA's own discrepancy, but if you get a D, you'd never give the stone for a re-check for fear they might see it as an E next time- the grades are quite close.




    Now, let's say you've got a 2.00 K/SI1. Here, the IGI stone will be worth just as much as the GIA graded stone.


    Because it's a $8K diamond VS a $25K+ dollar diamond.


    Proving a K pedigree is a lot easier than proving a D.


    The difference between a D and an E in this theoretical 2.00D/VS1 could be about $4000 ( say betwen $29K to $25K)- so proving it- today in America, you generally need a GIA report.


    I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just commenting on the realites of the market here




    Of course it is GI AMERICA- so maybe I ( international)GI is the way to go- let's include everyone!


    Robbe- no disrespect intended - I've always wondered if I gave GIA a cool mil would my fancy lights become intenses...hehehehe Kidding!!!!!
     
  18. SFDavey
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    by SFDavey » May 11, 2004
    AWESOME info folks!

    Here's the low-down on the diamond I am picking up tomorrow in a platinum solitaire setting...

    The jeweler came recommended to me. I went and say him, liked him, decided he would be my guy.

    He showed me some diamonds to test me, some diamonds to educate me, and he parted with him having a good understandign of what I was looking for. I insisted that I wanted a stone with a certificate. I did not specify GIA, EGL, AGS.

    He called me up with this...

    IGI certified
    Princess cut
    .85 carats
    H color
    VVS2 clarity

    I have seen the stone and it is beautiful. I liked it right away and I've minimized my doubts in the passing four weeks since I first saw it.

    I asked my gal to marry me while in Kuaui on the Na Pali coast overlooking the Nualolo valley from above on a mostly sunny day. She said yes, so I've taken time to find the right stone. I even let her see it while loose and she went nuts. I kinda feel a little guilty for springing the question on her in such a sure-thing spot without the rock, but I think she'll get over that once the stone is on her hand!

    I am picking it up tomorrow. I'll post a pic of it when I get a chance.

    Thanks again for all the info, y'all ROCK!
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Garry H (Cut Nut)
    Super_Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » May 11, 2004
    i am very happy for you SFD - congat's

    I feel we are making some head way in education here.

    If I was buying a H&A's diamond off the paper then IGI is the only non Japanese lab that puts a H&A's photo on the cert. So that is a no brainer David [​IMG]

    And as for the price difference - would someone like to find the half a dozen stones i reported on last year that i sent to both IGI and GIA please. You will see if you do a Rap price comparison that the GIA grades (which were both lower and in one case higher than IGI's) that given the discount for IGI stones you would be far better off buying the non IGI stone for personal use.

    For selling purposes, GIA adds something of its own brand value - but we should be very clear that there is no reason why consumers who do not intend to sell the stones should not save some money!
    Buy GIA and you get to say "my diamond has a GIA cert" in a whiney voice, like the office girl who say's "my diamond is VVS< and yours is only SI". But never loose sight that you, as a consumer will most likely pay a premium for the whining privalege.
     
  20. Garry H (Cut Nut)
    Super_Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » May 11, 2004
    The first grade is GIA, the second is IGI

    1 0.96 F SI1 E SI1

    2 0.99 H VS2 G VS1

    3 0.96 G SI1 G SI1

    4 0.93 G SI1 H SI1

    5 0.98 H VS2 H VS1

    6 0.96 H SI2 G SI1

    Using the Rapaport price list(tm) I found there is a 4.4% difference in prices quoted between GIA and IGI gradings (i.e. the grades of the IGI stones would on average sell for 4.4% more). But according to www.polishedprices.com/about/info.asp

    Certificate
    Factor
    AGS 1.028
    CGL 1.000
    GIA 1.000
    HRD 0.981
    IGI 0.944
    EGL 0.935
    Now this means that the market discounts IGI by 5.6% and on my small survey of 6 stones the grade differences added up to 4.4%.
    So the average consumer would have saved 1.2% buying an IGI stone over a GIA stone.

    Since last year I have seen many GIA and IGI stones and I think it is fair to say that GIA is moving toward a consistency problem (but that is just my opinion). IGI is quicker and on most of the calls where I percieved there was a difference in mine and IGI's call we were splitting hairs. I have seen GIA stones where I would call it a whole grade or even two difference (looser).
     
  21. valeria101
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
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    by valeria101 » May 11, 2004
    Yeah... those poor not-for-profits [​IMG] (labs, or anthing else) I wouldn't account that status as a guarantee for anything, and lest of all credibility.

    Anyway, this competition among certs is quite interesting, aside for the very moment when you actually need one !

    So... Garry, are you saying that the discounts (EGL, IGI, HRD) or premium (AGS) applied to non-GIA certs already compensate for whatever bias the labs may have either in grading or in their market perception ? So... there is no such thing as a "bad" (or undesirable) cert?



    [​IMG] There are two things that come to my mind when writing this:
    #1: at least GIA (maybe the others too?) takes care of it's consistency by recording the stones and checking against re-submission (so experiments to test the actual consistency of grading against it's own certs become tricky). this means that one and the same stone will always withstand re-certification by the same lab but not by another. With some conceivable inconsistency in garding (human as is), of course limited samples will always show differences betwen labs!

    #2: prices for neigbouring color and clarity grades overlap somewhat, so the variation of grading by at most one grade is taken care of by pricing anyway...This becomes safer for medium and lower color and calrity grades (down G and down VVS2 that is).


    Is there any outrageous mistake in my claims ?
     
  22. Garry H (Cut Nut)
    Super_Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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  23. SFDavey
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
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    by SFDavey » May 12, 2004
    The biggest bragging (whining) rights my gal will have is that her rock is soooo sparkly! That is the biggest factor involved here for her.

    I asked my dealer to find me a stone with a certificate just on a matter of principle more than anything else. Knowing the relative comparisons of various grading agencies is extremely valuable information for future purchases or to help advise friends. There seems to be a huge WAVE of proposals popping up amongst my friends.

    Information like this...
    ______________________________

    Certificate
    Factor
    AGS 1.028
    CGL 1.000
    GIA 1.000
    HRD 0.981
    IGI 0.944
    EGL 0.935
    ______________________________

    ...is ENORMOUSLY helpful to understanding how the various grading agencies relate to each other in terms of perceived value of the stone.

    When she gets her stone appraised (which she will for insurance, of course), I'll post the value of the appraisal vs. the price I paid as a percentage for reference here.
     
  24. diamondsbylauren
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
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    by diamondsbylauren » May 12, 2004
    The one trend in this thread I find off base is the notion that there is some formula for determining the discount for a diamond with an IGI report VS one with a GIA.



    Buy the diamond, not the paper is great advice.

    But that does not mean that folks should ignore the lab report.

    High dollar stones with IGI reports raise red flags for me.

     
  25. Brian Knox
    Shiny_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
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    by Brian Knox » May 12, 2004
    I quess I have to allow for the possibility that things may be totally different on the other side of the pond, but I thought I was in some type of twilight zone when I read the posts suggesting GIA and IGI were somehow comparable or equal.

    In the USA these two labs do not belong in the same sentance.

    IMO
     
  26. oldminer
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

    Messages:
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    by oldminer » May 12, 2004
    I agree with DiamondbyLauren. The diamond is the principal investment one is making. The paperwork should help you, but there are labs that just don't reach the level of GIA or AGS. Truthfully it does not matter a great deal. These secondary labs are very successful and fill a definite need in the industry and to the consumer.

    You need to find the right stone and the right documentation to suit you own needs. If I buy a diamond for personal use, I don't require any lab report. If it has a lab report already, it can be from any lab. It does not really matter to me because I am only buying the diamond. A consumer has a very different need which we must respect, too. I urge consumers to keep an open mind on the documentation issue, but to be aware that not every lab paper is identical in quality, no more than every G-VS1 diamond is identical in quality.
     
  27. SFDavey
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    by SFDavey » May 12, 2004
    The lab report I required was more for a few super simple reasons that areeasy toudnerstand once explained...
    1. FIRST time diamond buyer
    2. I'm buying directly from a jeweler, not a store. It's between me and a single person.
    3. I knew NOTHING about diamonds just 4 months ago. Now I know all of next to nothing. Seems to me experience is the greatest teacher for diamonds.
    4. I want a diamond that has more of a "history". I do not know where stones come from in general and it's reassuring to know that this one has been "recorded".
    5. See Number 1 above again!

    I am VERY excited to see the product this afternoon. Does it show? I've got my cashier's check in pocket and I am ready to ROLL!
     
  28. diamondsbylauren
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
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    Joined:
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    by diamondsbylauren » May 12, 2004
    Hi SF-


    Sorry if this conversation veered off course- getting into the finer points of IGI is not really what you needed to know.


    In your case, it looks as though an IGI report will fulfill ALL your expectations.




    Best of luck- and please let us know how it goes!
     
  29. valeria101
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
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    by valeria101 » May 13, 2004



    SF, sorry to take this up, but your thread obviously took a life of it's own... and those numbers are very easy to cite, and not for the better-as far as I understand.

    If so inclined, one can build up an entire 'conspiracy theory' of labs and grading. Until now, we know that some labs' label make stones cheaper, and since buyers know this and sellers know buyers know, only the worse stones may go to 'discount labs'.

    But wait! doesn't it make sense to send visually undesirable stones to GIA since the lab name's alone persuades consumers that the stone is 'good' and makes them pay more? Sure does... and the cert will never be able to say what the stone looks like and the price is for those three letters o the cert's header.

    With numbers and grades only to go by (as some internet buyers may contend with), it still sounds better to get an idea what the stone looks like and judge the lab latter. Possible? Sure that - this is why some sellers take more pain to present their stones than others.



    ----------------
    [​IMG] if one is very, very bored, here goes an example of the conspiracy (summed-up above anyway) at work:

    For example, take one EGL's 1carat, H-VS1. One may want to compare it's price with a GIA stone and conclude that the EGL piece should be 17% cheaper. But with some 20-30% variation in price among GIA stones listed, what would that 17% discount say? Applied to the average GIA price, the result would still be among the price range for GIA stones, and between two H-VS1, one GIA, one EGL certified and both of the same price, what's better?

    Given the reputation of the labs alone (and no stones to look at), each time the GIA certified stone would win against an EGL stone with the same certified parameters and price. So only those EGL stones that are cheaper than ANY comparable GIA stone available should be considered. Right? No sure, but since a list of factors as above is now common knowledge for buyers and sellers know it (at least PS browsers from both camps do by now)any seller could think this way and, who knows, maybe Leonid would adjust the database listings too to fit the general wisdom [​IMG]

    Now, why am I not surprised of the harsh but common implication that only those stones which would never get better prices anyway go to EGL? The argument is sound, but at no point does it refer to the poor diamonds - just the darn papers !

    Neither cert describes what the stone looks like very well: it is not possible to build an image of the stone based on those certs. Buyers ca only build such an image if the seller tells them how - an unpleasant scenario where one has nothing better to do than trust the seller. [​IMG]

    With no way to compare the diamond effectively based on the three words and four numbers on the GIA cert.. it' still better to move on to some better represented merchandise. [​IMG]
     
  30. SFDavey
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    by SFDavey » May 13, 2004
    I've purchased the ring and she LOVED it. As it happens, her folks are in town and they LOVE it. As it also happens, there was a birthday party for a friend and they LOVE it.

    So certificate or not, I am very happy with the purchase.

    That being said, I have a few comments about the IGI certificate.
    The certificate was issued in New York.
    There is not alot of info on the stone, but here's what IS on the cert...
    "Date of appraisal 2/18/04, Square mod brill cut, 5.14x5.03x3.77, .85 carats, near colorless (I), VVS2, Good Polish, Good Symetry, no treatment, est value *,***."
    The jeweler supplied an appraisal with the stone in addition to the cert.
    The appraisal listed the stone as...
    (All the info above from the cert) with the exception of raising the color to H and the clarity to VVS1.

    The price I paid vs the IGI stated value, set in platimnum "Tiffany" setting, was 47% paid vs. printed value.

    The price I paid vs. the separate appraisal done was 58%.

    I feel like I got a GREAT deal on this one. Whether I did or not, I feel great about the entire experience and would definitely send people I know to this guy.
     
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