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If its eye clean does the clarity rating even matter? SI2 vs FL

sahill

sahill

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 11, 2017
Messages
8
Oh boy here we go,

If you have an eye clean I3 or an eye clean SI2/SI1. As long as its eye clean, can a person wearing it even tell, without magnification, whether its a FL or an eye clean SI2?

Would there be any reduction in brilliance, fire or scintillation?

I guess you could say the same question about an Si2 that has the inclusion covered with a prong vs FL.

If you believe that there will be a visual difference regardless of it being eye clean between an SI2 and FL, then do you think it would be noticeable to the human eye? What kind of difference would it be?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
 
sahill said:
Oh boy here we go,

If you have an eye clean I3 or an eye clean SI2/SI1. As long as its eye clean, can a person wearing it even tell, without magnification, whether its a FL or an eye clean SI2?

Would there be any reduction in brilliance, fire or scintillation?

I guess you could say the same question about an Si2 that has the inclusion covered with a prong vs FL.

If you believe that there will be a visual difference regardless of it being eye clean between an SI2 and FL, then do you think it would be noticeable to the human eye? What kind of difference would it be?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Click to expand...

l have an eye clean SI2 EC. Many have disputed its clarity grade because it is so clear. The grading is done according to amount and size of the inclusions in the stone. Some labs even grade according to type of inclusion, from what l understand (that may be false).
l know where my inclusions are, in my EC, but l have examined it closely, under magnification, and right up, close to my face. The average person cannot see them, and l’m certain, most would say it’s IF. Luckily for me, none of the inclusions in my EC affect the scintillation, flash or performance of my diamond. There are, however, some inclusions that are obstructive, noticeable, and that do, indeed, affect the overall beauty of a diamond (ie: dark, carbon inclusions, clouds, some twinning whisps, depending on their location).
Passing off an eye clean SI for an IF/FL would be a huge mistake. Inclusions are like fingerprints, in a diamond, and can be helpful in identifying one diamond from another. As long as it appears eye clean, one should be confident in wearing an SI graded stone.
 
Ditto at what @Matthews1127 said. It depends on the type of inclusions and it's placement to determine if an SI2 has a detrimental effect.

I have had incredible luck with eye clean SI2s which doesn't affect the diamond's performance in any way, in both a 1.5 and 3 carat. No one could tell it was an SI2, and I couldn't either, even a cousin who was a jeweler - everyone just commented on how blindingly beautiful it was. These 2 diamonds were also part of the vendor's premium line of ideal cut diamonds with buy back policies and lifetime upgrades - which was in some way further reassurance they stood by the quality of their product.

For me, to pay for something like IF or FL where good eye clean SIs are available, is spending money on something you can't see or increase the visual performance of the diamond. But I also understand for some people, it is a mind clean issue, so eye clean SI or VS etc just won't do, which is fine. We all have our own preferences :)
 
It all depends.
First you have to consider, are you talking theory, measurable if your built a very precision machine to measure it or visible to the human eye?
For example high power laser researchers tried using diamond lenses.
They used the finest material available both natural and man made.
They blew up quickly due to absorbing light energy from internal defects and were a total failure.

A prongable i1 inclusion may reflect around the stone reducing light return to some degree in other areas of the diamond.
How much will depend on the location, depth, size and lighting.
It may not be eye visible however.
To make it more complicated a diamond with a reflecting i1 inclusion that is well cut is very likely to be overall brighter than an IF that is not well cut.

An otherwise eyeclean stone in bright lighting may have scatter, or a snow globe effect reducing light return.
The stone looks like a snow globe that has just been shook up.
This can be seen most commonly in stones with grade setting clouds or wisps and has been observed in stones up to vs2 in clarity grade in rare cases.
In theory they would be graded si2 by the lab but not always.
On the other hand there are stones with si2 grade setting clouds and wisps with no to little eye visible effects.

I could go on all day but I think you get the idea.
It depends.

Overall, eyeclean and no scatter I just dont worry about it all that much.
That said if someone wants an IF stone that's a valid choice and I am not going to argue with them.
 
All I care about is eye-clean and that inclusions don't interfere with sparkle, so SI1 is fine with me. Or in rare situations, SI2 can be a great find too. I've had an eye-clean SI2 and I couldn't see anything without a loupe (and even then, it was hard to find - the inclusions were clear). That said, there are lots of people here who need mind-clean clarity. My new diamond is a VS2 and it's the best clarity I've ever had in a diamond (I've had 3 previously), and I kinda like the "status" of it, haha!
 
I’m someone who falls into the category of “pay for what you can see” I.e. if I can’t tell the difference, my money will go elsewhere to things I can see, size, cut, color, so forth.

Now if the clarity is noticeable to the point it changes the quality of performance. That’s one thing. Or if they’re charging me vs prices when it’s si2, that’s another. But my e ring is a si2 and I regret nothing. IMG_0198.JPG
 
I love imperfections that can't be seen anywhere- except the price:)

For sure many ( most) SI2 diamonds have visible imperfections- but when they are eye clean, they are visually identical to IF.
 
Karl_K said:
It all depends.
First you have to consider, are you talking theory, measurable if your built a very precision machine to measure it or visible to the human eye?
For example high power laser researchers tried using diamond lenses.
They used the finest material available both natural and man made.
They blew up quickly due to absorbing light energy from internal defects and were a total failure.

A prongable i1 inclusion may reflect around the stone reducing light return to some degree in other areas of the diamond.
How much will depend on the location, depth, size and lighting.
It may not be eye visible however.
To make it more complicated a diamond with a reflecting i1 inclusion that is well cut is very likely to be overall brighter than an IF that is not well cut.

An otherwise eyeclean stone in bright lighting may have scatter, or a snow globe effect reducing light return.
The stone looks like a snow globe that has just been shook up.
This can be seen most commonly in stones with grade setting clouds or wisps and has been observed in stones up to vs2 in clarity grade in rare cases.
In theory they would be graded si2 by the lab but not always.
On the other hand there are stones with si2 grade setting clouds and wisps with no to little eye visible effects.

I could go on all day but I think you get the idea.
It depends.

Overall, eyeclean and no scatter I just dont worry about it all that much.
That said if someone wants an IF stone that's a valid choice and I am not going to argue with them.
Click to expand...


Lots of great discussion here. Thank you all for the responses.

Several comments have been made about wisps and clouds causing scatter that would effect light return.

Is this something that would be noticeable to the human eye?
How would you even know that is was happening using the unaided eye?
Would an idealscope image of the diamond verify if the inclusion (clouds or wisps) is causing a scatter effect or reduced light return?

Let's get to the bottom of this clarity non sense and see if we can systematically prove if its a real concern or if its nothing more than a tool used for price discrimination by playing with those individuals that need a mind clean diamond.
 
sahill said:
Lots of great discussion here. Thank you all for the responses.

Several comments have been made about wisps and clouds causing scatter that would effect light return.

Is this something that would be noticeable to the human eye?
Yes in the right lighting. It is one of those things that once you have seen it you cant unsee it but someone might not notice it or just think its normal.
How would you even know that is was happening using the unaided eye?
Look at the diamond in bright direct lighting while slowly rotating the diamond.
Would an idealscope image of the diamond verify if the inclusion (clouds or wisps) is causing a scatter effect or reduced light return?
no, it does not show up in an IS/ASET image.
Let's get to the bottom of this clarity non sense and see if we can systematically prove if its a real concern or if its nothing more than a tool used for price discrimination by playing with those individuals that need a mind clean diamond.
never going to happen. there will never be universal agreement. Pricing is mostly based on rarity not appearance anyway. With in a grade cleaner examples may sell at a premium but its not the primary driver of the price, the grade is what is driving the price.
It is true that clean rough is more rare than included rough.
Modern technology has allowed more cleaner stones to be cut from included rough however.
On the other hand many of the mines are into the stage where rough tends to get less clean on average.
Some of the newer sources are also producing very included rough. 30 years ago it would have not likely been very profitable to cut.
By using modern technology cleaner higher value diamonds can be cut from the rough.
Click to expand...
 
Karl_K said:
An otherwise eyeclean stone in bright lighting may have scatter, or a snow globe effect reducing light return.
The stone looks like a snow globe that has just been shook up.
This can be seen most commonly in stones with grade setting clouds or wisps and has been observed in stones up to vs2 in clarity grade in rare cases.
In theory they would be graded si2 by the lab but not always.
On the other hand there are stones with si2 grade setting clouds and wisps with no to little eye visible effects.
Click to expand...

Do you know of any videos that show this? I tried searching and can't seem to find anything :(
 
lalala said:
Do you know of any videos that show this? I tried searching and can't seem to find anything :(
Click to expand...
Not right off hand I dont.
 
"Eye clean" does not work for me. I would accept SI1-SI2 clarity in very rare cases, it all depend of the kind of inclusions and the beauty of the diamond. F/IF relieve my mind but funny, I don't have any of those. I always inspect the kind of inclusions and where are they situated. I am VS1+ clarity person, in many cases I reject even VS1 stones. But I have seen SI1 and SI2 diamonds with amazing performance! One of my SI1 diamond isn't even "eye clean", the inclusion is right in the middle under the table, visible in close distance, but this diamond is so crystal clear and sparkling, that nothing else matter for me! So, my answer to you is: it all depends of the particular diamond! By rule, you should be careful when choosing SI clarity and under.
 
.
Greately !

I think of those inclusions as a landscape worth traipsing on; a few seem beautiful enough to see all the time.

Of course, I would not be the first to break the convention of pricing clarity.
 
Eva brings up a great point.
The term "eye clean" is super important- yet hard to quantify.
A 21-year-old might easily see a spot that a 50-year-old can not.
I'm careful when using the term because of this fact.
 
Rockdiamond said:
A 21-year-old might easily see a spot that a 50-year-old can not.
Click to expand...
Exactly!
I can add, that Flawless does not mean totally free of inclusions, but 10x loupe clean. If someone is looking under super powerful microscope, many F/IF diamonds will contain inclusions.
So it all depends of the level of our vision.
 
Like with color, just because you can see something, doesn't necessarily mean it will bother you.

Also sometimes things you cannot see (e.g., clouds not shown, internal graining) can have an effect on light performance, which you may or may not see.
 
Let's get to the bottom of this clarity non sense and see if we can systematically prove if its a real concern or if its nothing more than a tool used for price discrimination by playing with those individuals that need a mind clean diamond.[/QUOTE]

I don't think clarity is a nonsense tool used to lure people into buying at a premium. A lot of people are practical and pragmatic these days and only make purchases that they can visually justify. But this doesn't make those who still prefer something more rare and special (beyond what the eye can detect) gullible to "price discrimination". Higher clarity is more rare so it makes sense for the higher price. Besides, higher clarity typically translates to lower probability of light return interference. I think in order to settle the clarity issue, one would have to compare at the extreme ends, i.e. FL vs. I3. With all other parameters being equal, common sense would dictate that higher clarity will prevail.
 
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Clarity is such a mind game for a lot of people, it certainly was for me. I wouldn't consider anything lower than a VS2. Then I got my AGS SI1 and became an eye clean convert. But i wouldnt get anything with clouds, you can see those.
 
I've looked at clouds from both sides now....I'm a Joni Mitchel Fan....
In any event....here's the thing.
If a person can see a cloud in a diamond, we'll all agree, the vast majority of observers will view this as a negative.
BUT- GIA sometimes uses the term to refer to characteristics that you'd need a loupe to see- and sometimes, they are so hard to see that you will struggle to find them with a loupe. So a cloud can sometimes be a good type of imperfection in a VS or even SI graded diamond.
We can surely find examples of VS graded stones with a carbon crystal which is visible due to placement.
A VS with a cloud is virtually always going to be eye clean- and not have visible cloudiness. I'd say 1/3 of SI2's with a cloud are visible naked eye- maybe 1/5 in SI1
I guess I don't like to draw hard fast rules- rather take it case by case.
For a shopper, eliminating a stone due to the GIA comment "cloud" might eliminate the best stone...

I can also totally get why people love owning Flawless Diamonds, or VVS.
We had one a few months back that was Flawless- not Internally Flawless, rather "Flawless"
It certainly felt good owning it.
 
doberman said:
Clarity is such a mind game for a lot of people, it certainly was for me. I wouldn't consider anything lower than a VS2. Then I got my AGS SI1 and became an eye clean convert. But i wouldnt get anything with clouds, you can see those.
Click to expand...

Agree. It took me a while to find out what my comfort level with clarity was. I originally thought eye clean SI2 or SI1 was sufficient but since then I've moved up to VS2, but even now I'm thinking that I will only be truly content with VS1. Personally I would not go lower than VS2 and ideally VS1, but then I have 20/20 vision and tend to look at my diamond ring closer than the standard viewing distance, so I may be especially sensitive to inclusions. Other people will have different preferences.
 
I had a SI1 with cloud as the grade making inclusion - looked obviously cloudy and I had to send it back.
My current SI1 only has clear crystals and is 100% eye clean all of the time with naked eye and most of the time under magnification. I would not pay the premium for a higher clarity if there is an eye clean SI available.
 
Clarity better than eye-clean matters to some, and not to others.

After getting educated pick what's right to the buyer/giver and the person who's going to wear the diamond.

Since people vary on this surprise diamonds with surprise grades are a big risk IMO.
What if his preference is not paying for any grade higher than eye-clean, but she just really wants a higher grade?

Best everyone talks about it first.
 
@Rockdiamond

I agree. I should have specified that I would not consider an SI1 with clouds. But a VS2 with a cloud is going to be eye clean for most people. Taking things on a case by case basis is absolutely the way to go. And I wonder how subjective it all is. A gemologist appraiser told me that my AGS SI1 D color stone was "very clean" and he would have graded it an E VS2. Either way I can't see any imperfections unless I loupe it.
 
I agree totally with what Eva said. I prefer VS1 if I could always find what I wanted in VS1 because those are usually clean with a 10x loupe with zero concern of inclusions affecting light performance.

But I also have an SI1 antique asscher with inclusions that do not bother me in the least! Just a couple of specs of something that I cannot see without a loupe. I definitely do not tolerate larger feathers, which are cracks in the diamond. Even though they may not be a structural problem, I don't like the idea of cracks so I don't consider them. Again, as others have said, clarity is personal.

What I will add is that I buy for overall quality...I want a very well cut stone number one, and I certainly am not going to buy I1 or lower clarity. Great SI2's are possible but not easy to find. Great SI1s are found more easily. In the case of an engagement ring, I would normally recommend SI1 as the lowest unless it is a case of the recipient wanting the largest possible stone and not caring about it's quality.

You can buy a Lamborghini with a VW engine...it may look good on the outside, but really, who'd want that? I'd really wear a good quality simulant (or more likely a gold or platinum band) over an I1 or lower diamond any day.
 
Lots of things go into the choice of a diamond. Many people don't think anyone needs a diamond at all.

The main reason people buy diamonds is because it is a symbol of lasting love and commitment. Since it's a symbol, a flawless diamond symbolizes a flawless relationship. Of course that depends on how you interpret the symbols. Plenty of people that a good SI2 symbolizes being clever enough to beat the system.
 
doberman said:
@Rockdiamond

I agree. I should have specified that I would not consider an SI1 with clouds. But a VS2 with a cloud is going to be eye clean for most people. Taking things on a case by case basis is absolutely the way to go. And I wonder how subjective it all is. A gemologist appraiser told me that my AGS SI1 D color stone was "very clean" and he would have graded it an E VS2. Either way I can't see any imperfections unless I loupe it.
Click to expand...

BINGO!!!
Clarity grading is 100% subjective.
Now, a vast majority of trained graders will agree on the grade in most cases- however, there's plenty of stones that are borderline calls. The difference between VS2 and SI1 is a judgment call.
Once GIA issues the grade, we can howl all we want about it being wrong, however at that point, it's what GIA called it.
But they may have had an internal debate among graders to come to the grade. For this reason there's plenty of VS2's that look worse than other given SI1's
Me? I would certainly consider an SI1 with a cloud- but I'm looking at an actual diamond to make the determination- I totally get how an online purchaser won't have that advantage.
It's clear that clarity is viewed differently by different people- and it's one of the reasons I've always loved this business. Makes life interesting:)
 
@Rockdiamond

In the old days three different graders had to agree on color and clarity for the report to be issued. Is that still the case?
I have an older GIA Gem Trade Laboratory report on my oldest diamond that has 3 different sets of initials on it.
 
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The biggest issue with clouds on a grading report is it does not tell you how dense the cloud is in the stone.
Lets say a cloud is made up of 40 small dots.
Spread out into a larger area that looks worse on a plot they may be totally invisible and have no impact on light return.
The exact same dots in a small area may be visible or impact light return in that area but look better on a plot.
 
This is such an interesting thread...

Other than clouds, feathers, what other characteristics would be red flags? I know certain characteristics can affect how light returns or the structure of a diamond. For example, would a crystal or carbon cause light to be "redirected"? How big would a feather have to be to cause structural concern? What about chips?
 
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