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I think I got a great deal but....

DiamondSearcher2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
14
I would love this boards thought on the whole thing.... Thanks to the board I really learned a lot about diamonds in the last few weeks. You guys "rock".. :)

Problem with this one is I bought it sight unseen. On Holloway Cut Adviser it grades out at "2.8 - Very Good". It is already set in a basic white gold ring for $6,000. (I might get the stone re-set in something better) I read on here that I should not worry about the "Additional clouds are not shown." note... I'm hoping that is correct. I didn't want to wait on this one as I thought it was a great deal.

Your thoughts and input are greatly appreciated!

Here are the GIA stats for the stone:

Round Brilliant

Measurements:

7.41 - 7.48 x 4.25 mm


Carat Weight:

1.43 carat


Color Grade:

G


Clarity Grade:

SI2


Cut Grade:

Good


Proportions:


Depth:

57.1%


Table:

60%


Crown Angle:

30.0°


Crown Height:

12.0%


Pavilion Angle:

40.6°


Pavilion Depth:

42.5%


Star length:

55%


Lower Half:

75%


Girdle:

Medium to Slightly Thick


Culet:

Very Small


Finish:

Polish:

Very Good


Symmetry:

Very Good


Fluorescence:

None



Comments:

Additional clouds are not shown.
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
is it returnable? I would not buy a stone with a 'good' cut grade.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
The price is pretty okay though.

Can you post like 5 pics of it head on for us?

EDIT TO ADD: Um... are you sure you didn't reverse the table and the depth. The stone is overly shallow so it is probably dark, unless you got the numbers wrong.
 

DiamondSearcher2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
14
I only have a couple of pictures and they are not great.... I bought this on “Idonowidont” so it’s a resale/used ring and there are no super close-up pics of the diamond.

I knew you all said to stay away from the "good" cut but I thought that the fact that it graded pretty well on the Holloway Cut Adviser might negate the "good" rating. Is this not true?

What I found strange is I came across quite a few rocks that were rated “very good” but then when I put them in the HCA they would come in with HORRIBLE results.

It looked like on Blue Nile for the same size and cut, color and clarity I would be paying 12K at least for this but I admit there are not too many "good" cut diamonds on Blue Nile.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Okay so here is a comparable diamond: http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-2566116-1.41-carat-Round-diamond-G-color-SI2-Clarity.aspx?sku=2566116&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com But it is a very good cut so better than yours, but also slightly less carat weight.

Around $9,000 retail for that stone dollars. SO... if you got the diamond and the setting for 6K out the door then you did good on PRICE. And you did good on spread for the price-- so your diamond has a large diameter measurement for the carat weight it is and the price you paid. But you are getting that diameter size in exchange for a whole lot of light return, performance, scintillation and brilliance.

And if PRICE is your only concern. YES, you got a good deal.

But if you wanted a well cut diamond that will sparkle and shine and really perform well. You may have failed. http://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut/

Yours is PROBABLY the second diamond over from the right on the chart. Which is not as bad as the 4th one (very shallow) but is still going to have compromised performance.

using_IS_Reference_Chart_72.jpg
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,116
Gosh, you learned a lot here but then went and bought a diamond without posting the specs first? And you bought an SI2 sight unseen??? It would have been pretty safe if you had bought any GIA Excellent cut (even though we know some Excellents are better than others). But you aren't going to get a good HCA score on a "good" cut or even "very good". This stone has an incredibly shallow crown angle and a very big spread. That combo is a good one for chipping, I would think.

I'd rather have a smaller well cut stone any day. I'm sorry but you asked for feedback and I have to be honest. At least maybe lurkers here will gain from the discussion.

If you can cancel, I would do it as quickly as possible.
 

DiamondSearcher2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
14
Thanks so much for the input...

So am I doing something wrong with the whole Holloway Cut Adviser thing?

I entered in the angles, wouldnt this catch the fact that it is too shallow? That was the reason I was using the HCA thing since I didn't know what all the dimensions should be.




Selected: 57.1% depth, 60% table, 30° crown angle, 40.6° pavilion angle

Factor Grade
Light Return Good
Fire Very Good
Scintillation Excellent
Spread
or diameter for weight Excellent
Total Visual Performance 2.8 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Here are some cheat sheet specifications for round brilliant specs/numbers :

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

Also, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

With that said, here''s a "Cliff''s Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).


ETA; Above copied from Lorelei and John Pollard.
 

DiamondSearcher2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
14
"I'm sorry but you asked for feedback and I have to be honest."

No problem diamondseeker2006 .....
Worst case scenario here is I resell it, maybe for more... It’s not the end of the world.

So do you have any input on why it would come out so well on the “Holloway Cut Adviser”. This is what I am curious about. As a computer guy myself I guess maybe I am trusting the computer too much maybe?
 

DiamondSearcher2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
14
Thanks Gypsy....

So same question as above...

Why does HCA think this is a pretty good cut when what from what you are telling me it is way too shallow. Is there another tool online like HCA to use?
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,116
Please follow the numbers Gypsy provided and compare the numbers on your stone to those. The only really good numbers on the HCA are less than 2.0 (with a few exceptions).

SI2's can have visible inclusions, so it is never a good idea to buy a stone without magnified images and preferably a return policy. But as you said, hopefully you can resell if it doesn't meet your expectations. My original diamond was not a great cut and I thought it was a pretty diamond for years until I got one that was well cut. So maybe you will like it.
 

mjertl

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
203
well, most people would advise to stay under 2 on the HCA, so it didn't really perform the best there.
If it isn't returnable, you can look at it with your own eyes, and if you really love it then you got a great deal, right? And if you don't love it, like you said, you can try to sell it.
 

DiamondSearcher2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
14
Ok.... Thanks to both of you for your input.

Hopefully it will look ok.

I went and actually physically looked at diamonds for the first time a few days ago at the jeweler’s and I could notice color but I couldn’t notice the cut very well.

I could pick out the SI1’s from the I1’s and I could notice 2 color grades but I looked at a “very good” cut vs. a “premium cut” and I couldn’t tell.

I hope it has some sparkle and if not it will be on ebay if you are interested. :)
 

DiamondSearcher2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
14
Great! I will follow the new thread. Hopefully someone lets me know.

I was thinking maybe it would look better than expected since it didnt turn out too horrible on HCA.
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
DiamondSearcher2|1319683080|3048439 said:
Ok.... Thanks to both of you for your input.

Hopefully it will look ok.

I went and actually physically looked at diamonds for the first time a few days ago at the jeweler’s and I could notice color but I couldn’t notice the cut very well.

I could pick out the SI1’s from the I1’s and I could notice 2 color grades but I looked at a “very good” cut vs. a “premium cut” and I couldn’t tell.

I hope it has some sparkle and if not it will be on ebay if you are interested. :)
I am betting you couldn't tell the difference with cut because it was in the jewelry store spotlights which makes everything look good.

check out this video
http://vimeo.com/2556364
 

DiamondSearcher2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
14
Interesting video.

Maybe at the store I was not moving the diamonds enough to tell... That could have been it as well.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
I have no CLUE if it is a good candidate and how much spread you would loose, but you can also send it in for a recut if you aren't happy with it in person. Recuts are $350 a carat at Brian Gavin Diamonds, and you can send your specs to Brian and see what he says might be possible if you are interested.

I wouldn't pay 6K on Ebay from a private seller. But, if you do put it on ebay get a good appraisal for it to help you with your sale. And you will need LOTS of good pictures. And be sure to mention in the title that it's GIA certified and G color. And pray that it is eyeclean.

Since it is a chip prone stone I would absolutely re-set it into a bezel-- but that might hurt light performance. . Get the thing insured (which means you need it appraised) ASAP.
 

Miss Sparkly

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
1,664
diamondseeker2006|1319681235|3048408 said:
Gosh, you learned a lot here but then went and bought a diamond without posting the specs first? And you bought an SI2 sight unseen??? It would have been pretty safe if you had bought any GIA Excellent cut (even though we know some Excellents are better than others). But you aren't going to get a good HCA score on a "good" cut or even "very good". This stone has an incredibly shallow crown angle and a very big spread. That combo is a good one for chipping, I would think.

I'd rather have a smaller well cut stone any day. I'm sorry but you asked for feedback and I have to be honest. At least maybe lurkers here will gain from the discussion.

If you can cancel, I would do it as quickly as possible.
This is completely untrue. Diamondseeker didn't like a stone that I posted because it was graded as "good" however it scored all excellent and a 1 on the HCA. One of the trusted board jewelers stated that it was well worth a look although it didn't fit into PS's idea of what a pedigreed diamond should look like. The clouds not shown on a si2 would worry me though. Many of the ideal cut stones only return "very goods" on the HCA so you just have to play with it and use your own eyes for judgement too.
 

Laila619

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
11,611
DiamondSearcher,

The HCA says it's worth buying if the price is right--which it was, so you bought it! It might not be a top performer, but it still should be pretty.

Are you SURE you don't have the table and depth switched though? Please look again at the cert. I think you've got them reversed.
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
it's entirely possible that he doesn't have the table and depth reversed...
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,116
Sparkly Blonde|1319725684|3048694 said:
diamondseeker2006|1319681235|3048408 said:
Gosh, you learned a lot here but then went and bought a diamond without posting the specs first? And you bought an SI2 sight unseen??? It would have been pretty safe if you had bought any GIA Excellent cut (even though we know some Excellents are better than others). But you aren't going to get a good HCA score on a "good" cut or even "very good". This stone has an incredibly shallow crown angle and a very big spread. That combo is a good one for chipping, I would think.

I'd rather have a smaller well cut stone any day. I'm sorry but you asked for feedback and I have to be honest. At least maybe lurkers here will gain from the discussion.

If you can cancel, I would do it as quickly as possible.
This is completely untrue. Diamondseeker didn't like a stone that I posted because it was graded as "good" however it scored all excellent and a 1 on the HCA. One of the trusted board jewelers stated that it was well worth a look although it didn't fit into PS's idea of what a pedigreed diamond should look like. The clouds not shown on a si2 would worry me though. Many of the ideal cut stones only return "very goods" on the HCA so you just have to play with it and use your own eyes for judgement too.
SB, buying a "good" cut diamond with SI2 clarity without seeing ANY images and NO return policy should never be recommended by anyone on this board as far as I am concerned. In fact, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy an AGS0 without a return policy, although that might be my only exception! On the HCA, this stone only got GOOD on Light Performance...not very good, not excellent! The reason for caution and preference toward excellent/ideal cut stones on this board is for the benefit of people buying over the internet. Sure, someone with patience who doesn't mind spending a lot of money on shipping costs can send for several diamonds until they come up with one that is excellent looking but doesn't fall into the normal parameters by comparing it to an excellent cut stone. But most are hoping to get it right the first time. And never is a GIA "good" cut, "good" on light performance, SI2, with no images and no return policy going to be something we should advise someone to buy, in my opinion. This board would be worthless if we did that because no one could trust the recommendations.

I do not recall the stone you are talking about of yours. That would be a different scenario to have all Ex on HCA but "good" cut according to GIA. I'd have to see idealscope images and the numbers on that one to see whether I would recommend it or not. You are comparing apples and oranges by bringing that up. But it is customary here to try to help people get the best possible stone, and people are free to ignore the advice! (I looked back out of curiosity and you can see that I suggested that GIA excellent was a broad category and that it might be preferable to look in that category instead of very good. I didn't reject the stone based on that alone. I was hesitant about it because it was an I1 with strong fluorescence and no extra images which would be risky especially since the top inclusion was a feather.)
 

Miss Sparkly

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
1,664
I never stated to purchase this diamond nor did I state that this diamond performed well. The only point that I was making is to look outside of the box at very good and even good cut diamonds as there are very good stones to be had at very good prices.

What I am disagreeing with is that you told the OP that they will not find a good or very good cut stone that performs well on the HCA. The stone I asked about in a previous post was proof that that statement is untrue
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
32,399
i'd stay away from this flat top stone.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
56,116
Sparkly Blonde|1319736915|3048807 said:
I never stated to purchase this diamond nor did I state that this diamond performed well. The only point that I was making is to look outside of the box at very good and even good cut diamonds as there are very good stones to be had at very good prices.

What I am disagreeing with is that you told the OP that they will not find a good or very good cut stone that performs well on the HCA. The stone I asked about in a previous post was proof that that statement is untrue
Okay, what I should have said above to the OP was that a HCA light performance score of "good" is not desirable and not made any blanket statements regarding the HCA. I only use the HCA to weed out the lesser stones within GIA Excellent, usually. As DF just said above, a crown angle of 30 is not going to result in a very attractive profile for this particular stone in addition to the light perfomance issue. My goal in giving recommendations is to help the person get the best possible stone for the money, and that is going to generally be a GIA Excellent cut or AGS Ideal/Excellent cut when looking at round brilliants. I don't care if a stone is H&A or whether polish is very good or excellent (in the case of AGS). My own daughter has a premium select stone from WhiteFlash because it was an outstanding stone with a good price because the polish was excellent instead of ideal. You can't look at it and know it is not a H&A. I am happy to recommend stones that will save someone money. But if they come here wanting to buy the best stone for their money, I owe it to them to recommend excellent cut stones especially when we are talking about a diamond for an engagement ring.

(And incidentally, when I just put that stone from your thread in the HCA, I got very good for light performance and not excellent.)
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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And my apologies to DiamondSearcher to use your thread for a discussion on the HCA and stone recommendations! Good luck to you!
 

nfowife

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
544
I agree with Diamondseeker. I mean, you asked for opinions and you also said you spent time on here learning. However, it doesn't take long to learn that one of the basic guidelines here is to use the HCA to REJECT (not select!!) stones. So if a stone has a score over 2, you reject it. under 2, it merits further consideration (that's when you'd ask the vendor for images, idealscope or ASET images, video, gemologist review, etc.). So, besides the price, I'm not sure what would draw you to this particular stone- especially with a low clarity such as SI2. You have no idea if the stone is eye clean for one. For two, there seems to be no possibility of returning the stone. THESE ARE RED FLAGS for you as a buyer.

Hopefully you see the stone and like it. If not, well then, good luck. Because in general, unless you are buying a secondhand stone, you get what you pay for. And without seeing the stone, it seems you have purchased a not so great one.
 

DiamondSearcher2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
14
At Jarad when looking at the IGI certified SI2's I could spot the inclusion usually right away.

I just spent about 20 minutes staring at the thing until I eyes hurt I cannot see ANY inclusions so I guess I got VERY lucky on this ring/stone. Or maybe that is just showing that IGI's SI2 is much worse than GIA's SI2...

I don't even think I am going to get it re-set, it looks great the way it is.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
DiamondSearcher2|1319865084|3049826 said:
At Jarad when looking at the IGI certified SI2's I could spot the inclusion usually right away.

I just spent about 20 minutes staring at the thing until I eyes hurt I cannot see ANY inclusions so I guess I got VERY lucky on this ring/stone. Or maybe that is just showing that IGI's SI2 is much worse than GIA's SI2...

I don't even think I am going to get it re-set, it looks great the way it is.
I'm happy it's eyeclean!

At least provide us with pictures. =)
 
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