I need help, diamond purchase tomorrow afternoon!!

[MustangMike]

I know this is on seriously late notice, but I really need help, and quick! I''ve been lurking for sometime, reading - but I haven''t been on in a while. Today I was out shopping for an engagement ring again and found a diamond that caught my eye but I don''t know if I''m getting all that I can for my money. It is on hold for me until tomorrow afternoon, so I have to decide quickly!!!

To give you a little background, I live in Pittsburgh PA and the jeweler is located in the center of what is known to be "the place" in Pittsburgh to buy diamonds. The shop is reasonably well known and imports most all of their diamonds from Belgium, as this one has been. I am not receiving any pressure from them, they have been far more than helpful with me, and as far as I can tell, honest!

As for what I/we want, 1 to 1.25 carat, near colorless or colorless, and as square of a stone that we can find. The color is most critical to me I guess, I want a very white appearance.

Ok, the diamond, it''s a princess. Specs are:

Measurements: 5.80 x 5.70 x 4.29mm
Weight: 1.16 carat
depth: 75.3%
Table 78%
Girdle: Medium to very thick
Culet: None
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Very Good
Clarity: VS2
Color: E
Fluorescence: None
Price: $6400

It is GIA certified and this is a GIA report. It has one VERY small crystal inclusion on the very low right corner of the table. One natural in the far right corner (you actually need a jewelers scope to see it on the diagram!)

The guy I was working with was amazed that it was a VS2 and suggested that it should have been a VS1 given it''s few imperfections.

He also mentioned that suggested retail price on it is $12,700. His reason for being so low as because they buy directly from their dealer in Belgium and buy in volume, so costs are low. They claim that they cut MSRP in half on every diamond that comes into their store. He claims that they only mark up 15%. Can this be possible?? I don''t know anything about this, so any light that can be shed would be great!!!

So is this diamond as good as it looks to me? Should I be concerned that it is a VS2 given it''s few inclusions? I had budgeted about $10k if necessary, so in a way, I''m surprised that this is as cheap (if that''s possible) as it is. She really doesn''t want to go any bigger than 1.25.

Any help/suggestions would be great - I know that you all know your stuff! Thanks a lot!!!

Mike

 

[chialea]

I live in Pittsburgh, where are you getting this from, out of curiosity? (And I know the building you mean, just which store)

 

[chialea]

And since you're in such a hurry, I'll try to repeat what I've heard people say around here about princess cuts, but I'm not an expert, and didn't even look at them myself.

The AGA cut chart for princess-cut diamonds are at http://diamonds.pricescope.com/fnc1.asp
Now, crown height makes a big differnce (you want to aim for 10% or over), and you don't know that, so it's a bit harder to judge. Fancy shapes in general are harder to judge. However, the information you've got doesn't put this as a really good cut -- you're falling down into the 2B/3A range. Also, I hear that you really want to aim for a table % that's a few percent less than your depth % -- and you're the other way around.

However, it's really hard to judge fancy shapes from here, so it's hard to tell, but it really doesn't look promising.

There's one specific jeweler I'm thinking of in that building who was very high-pressure and downright slimy, so I'm just hoping you're not talking to him. (One sales rep, in fact.) My SO found someone much more educated and accomodating right in the same building. I can ask him for the name of the jeweler, if you're interested. (I've never been to this one, I'm in CA for the summer, so he was looking by himself.)

 

[MustangMike]

Thanks, Chialea! I went to Goldstock in the Clark building, I'm hoping that this is not the place that you are talking about. Would you recommend another place?

About the table - I actually noticed this when looking at the stone, it seemed to be a bit large, but hey - what do I know? So what you're saying is that I should look for a better diamond? Are the 1A's and 1B's hard to find? How much more would you say I would pay for one?

In all honesty, this diamond looked pretty damn good to me from what I've been looking at so far. Do you think the price is lower ($6400) because of the excessive table?

I'm going back at noon time today...please help! Thanks again!

 

[abradabra]

Mike,

I'm afraid I don't know much about Princess cuts, as I am new here myself, but since you have such a time crunch--I ran a quick search to see how other diamonds with similar specs were priced (see below--each diamond was listed by several vendors, so you have a range of prices).

Your diamond seems a bit smaller than these, maybe because your stone is deeper than these and your girdle gets very thick and is hiding some weight there. I would imagine this would decrease the light return and make the diamond less "sparkly," but again, I'm no expert. The internet prices are lower, but that is to be expected--whether or the difference is worth it ($400-$1000) is something only you can answer.

Since you've actually seen the diamond you are looking at and you think it is beautiful, then that is ultimately what matters. With your budget, you definitely could get an ideally cut diamond if you are willing to wait a bit and (re)search more. I'd check out http://www.goodoldgold.com/ for education and gorgeous diamonds and I believe SuperbCert has a branded ideally cut princess you could check out and compare too (http://www.superbcert.com/).

You should run a search for Princess cut posts by Researcher and MoreMoreMore, I believe they both are very knowledgeable about princess cuts.

1.16 carat, E color, VS2 Clarity
Depth: 74.1%, Table: 78%
Girdle: M-STK, No culet
No Flour, Very Good Symmetry and Excellent Polish
5.87x5.75x4.26
$5700-5900

1.15 carat, E color, VS1 Clarity
Depth: 71.7%, Table: 79%
Girdle: M-STK, No culet
No Flour, Very Good Symmetry and Polish
5.98*5.79*4.15
$5600-$5800

1.15 carat, E color, VS1 Clarity
Depth: 73.5%, Table: 75%
Girdle: M-STK, No culet
Faint Flour, Very Good Symmetry and Excellent Polish
5.93-5.78-4.25
$6000-$6200

1.17 carat, E color, VS1 Clarity
Depth: 71.2%, Table: 76%
No Flour, Very good Symmetry and Excellent Polish
6.01-5.86-4.17
$5400-$5600

 

[MustangMike]

Wow, great info abradabra, thank you! I didn't realize just how much less you pay on the internet. You would obviously recommend that I go that route?

I've just talked with someone who knows the jeweler well and speaks very highly of them. I may go back to them and get a bit more detailed with them as to what I am looking for in a diamond - maybe they can come up with something for me. If not, it looks like I may be buying on the internet!!

I'm sure I need to search a bit more on here to find, but off hand, which internet vendors would you recommend most highly? How is the diamond delivered to you? Are they easy to work with if you are not happy with the diamond when you see it for the first time?

What a great resource, thanks again!!

 

[moremoremore]

Hi there and congrats on your upcoming proposal!!!!

OK- First of all....give me a break....what a pathetic sales pitch this guy is giving you. PLEASE. Tell him to go jump in a lake.
I agree with Chialea...that stone doesn't look so promising. I'm a HUGE proponent of trusting your eyes, not numbers, but man oh man, none of these stones look even decent. With those depths and those huge tables, you are going to have a lifeless and dull stone.. The stone you posted is way deep and with a huge table. YIKES. And I"m really sorry

the others don't look much better....

You will increase your chances of finding a good princess by looking for a princess that has a good realtionship b/w depth and table. I suggest that looking for a stone no deeper than say 73 and a table that is smaller than that.

GoodOldGold has a lot of princess stones listed online...I'm not saying buy from GOG, but do yourself a favor and look at each and every one Jonathan has listed...you will notice a trend....stones that perform the best have good depths and tables and good crown height. You will not find one stone on that site that has numbers like the stones in this post....(Also, J told me that the combination of crown and pavillion angels is what is more critical, but you can't really tell that from looking at stones where no analysis is given.)

Best of luck to ya....I'm going to try to post a few...

 

[moremoremore]

GOG doesn't have any with your specs...not that they can't get one...but here goes nuthin'....


http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=2673206

http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=2544033


http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/diamond_Details.aspx?itemcode=2471575

http://www.whiteflash.com/princess/Princess-cut-diamond-728895.htm

http://www.whiteflash.com/princess/Princess-cut-diamond-733264.htm

http://www.whiteflash.com/princess/Princess-cut-diamond-726872.htm

 

[moremoremore]

And to toot my own horn...

It doesn't even have the most amazing BScope I've ever seen...but it sure is purdy!!!

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-new-2-2-f-vs2-princess-from-gog-lol-again.17308/

 

[abradabra]

I wouldn't necessarily recommend going over the internet vs. a local jeweler. The internet vendors can offer you and great price and many of them have excellent customer service (you can search the ones listed below to see former customers). However, since your jeweler comes highly recommended, it would certainly be nice to a) develop a relationship with someone locally who can help if any problems occur and provide you with future pieces, and 2)support members of your community who have invested a great deal of time, energy and resources to develop a great reputation. I think that is an important thing to reward.

One way you might consider utilizing the internet if you want to ultimately purchase locally is to price similar products. Since your local jeweler has to pay rent, maintain inventory, etc.--he or she usually can't match internet prices, so don't expect that.

However, if you explain that you would prefer to invest your money in the community and understand that you have to pay a premium for the extra service they will be able to give you, the jeweler may be able to work with you on price, getting closer to the internet rate. Some jewelers are offended by people mentioning they are looking at purchasing on the internet, so you have to approach the situation delicately and make sure they understand that you really want to have a relationship with them, but you also are trying to get the best deal possible, while still allowing him to make a fair profit. It doesn't sound like your vendor is trying to "hose" you begin with.

The most popular internet vendors around here are definitely Whiteflash and Good Old Gold (if you like the princess, you should also check out some of the other square cuts on this website like the Jubilee, Regent, etc. They are hearts and arrows squares that very popular on this board and absolutely gorgeous). They get rave reviews all the time. Dirt Cheap Diamonds and SuperbCert are also very popular, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some other fantastic vendors. The diamonds are usually delivered via FedEx to you, but you can also have them sent to a local independent appraiser to confirm the specs of the stones and view it for yourself. Since these vendors understand that so much of picking out diamond is dependent on seeing it yourself, they appear to be quite easy to work with on returning ones you don't like. I don't recall reading any complaints on this.

In short, the internet is a great option, but there really is something to be said for developing a relationship with a local jeweler you can pop in and see whenever you want or have a question. Neither option is better than the other, it depends on the customer and what is ultimately important to you. If your local jeweler is great, then you can't go wrong...

 

[abradabra]

MoreMoreMore's response made me think of something. She appears to know A LOT about princess cuts (from my lurking), so I would really listen to her.

You mentioned that someone highly recommended a local jeweler--in evaluating such a recommendation, you might want to consider how much the source knows about diamonds. Many (most) people are uneducated about diamonds and may have no idea that the "really great" one they picked out is kind of a dud. Someone with no knowledge of diamonds could lead you to a fabulous jeweler or to a chain with really crappy selection. You never know

So if you can advice from someone with a lot of knowledge about diamonds and Pittsburgh area jewelers, you'd be more likely to find a fantastic local jeweler.

 

[lsmathis1]

Mike,

Unfortunately I do not know a lot about princess cuts but it does seem a bit deep. Hopefully you were running the numbers to find out for sure.
One thing I can suggest - don't do anything hasty! There are lots of great diamonds out there - especially in your price range. Seeing that you are in PA, I'd like to suggest you take a look at Robbins Diamonds (downtown Philly at 8th & Walnutt - or their location in Deleware - no tax). We live in Atlanta and it was well worth our trips up there for us to find the perfect diamond/ring combo. It's just a great resource you should consider if you have the time. I could brag on them all day... We shopped around (B&M, Apparel Mart, Online & other non traditional retailers) and they by far had the best prices, quality and super friendly and patient graduate gemologists.

Anyway, good luck in your search!

~Lisa

 

[MustangMike]

Wow, more great info everyone, thanks a lot!. MMM, your diamond is BEAUTIFUL to say the least! I now realize what I need to look for. You have all made it very clear to me that I am going to pass on the diamond that I was looking at. I do agree that I would like to build a relationship with the jeweler and that is what I am going to try to do first – just to see what they can come up with. If nothing, I’ll go to the internet I guess.

I looked at all of those diamonds that were listed and all were beautiful! I do have to say that I really think I want an E color, maybe an F if I can’t find an E with everything else for a good price. So here’s what I’ve learned so far (what I would like):

1 to 1.25 ct
Table 68-73 ( the smaller tables look best to me )
Depth that is a few points higher than whatever table I like
VS2 or better clarity

I still don’t know about the polish and symmetry ratings – what should I look for and how much of a difference is there?

What would you say is a good price for something in this range, adding in any recommendations that you have for me. I really want a gorgeous diamond so please tell me what you think I want – LOL. I definitely see what I DON’T want what I was looking at yesterday. Thanks so much for everyone’s help here! I’m going to slow down with all of this now…

Mike

 

[MustangMike]

Thanks a lot, Lisa, I will definitely consider that if my local jeweler does not work out!

 

[ame]

I lived in Pittsburgh (cranberry twp) for a while. If you can stay away from the diamond district, do it. They are all major con artists.

There's a jeweler in Zelie that is just excellent, right on main street. Mathew Jewelers. I know Casa D'Oro is also really good.

I know the Mathews shop keeps GIA dossiers on all of their stones. Their prices were ok last I remember. You can still get a better deal online.

 

[moremoremore]

Abradabra- thanks for the compliment!!!...but I don't know nearly as much as the others on this board!!! I'm still learning and it's only taken me about 2 years to get this far!

I think I've gotten lucky a few times!

I definitely agree that seeing a stone is a good idea...You really need to SEE princess stones....You do save on tax though if you order out of state

.... As far as prices, I think WHiteflash and GOG and Dirtcheap have grat prices...but expect to pay more for a local B&M b/c they have more overhead....but now that I think about it, GOG has tons of overhead and the prices are still great (they are a B&M here in NY)...

I think you are well on your way to finding a great stone!!!! I would really think about the F....I have EAGLE eyes....I can totally tell the diff b/w an F & G....But an E & F are much harder b/c they are both in the colorless range......give it a try!!! ALso, with a great cut, the stone will look much whiter!!!!

 

[chialea]

Ah-ha... I went to Goldstock several times, and had been told they were great, but I found their selection rather lacking in terms of diamonds. (Not to mention the kinds of sapphires they could get, that was just sad)

Anyway, I asked my SO, and he said Banner&Banner were very knowlegeable and helpful, (He ordered my ring from there) and also seemed more than happy to go and get anything they didn't have. (specifically, Canadian diamonds, as he's Canadian)

So, if it were me, I'd either buy on the internet from someone like GoodOldGold or NiceIce or WhiteFlash who can get you idealscope images and dimension and everything, or I'd at least give Banner & Banner a try. Print out the princess cut chart, go in (the daughter is the gemologist, so you want to talk to her, apparently she's great about going through all the little geeky details my SO wanted to know), and say "I want a great cut princess diamond" and say "here's some research I've done, these are the parameters that I'm trying to aim for" (table several % fewer than depth %, crown height >= 10%, and so forth) -- just you want to be somewhat flexible, since they're so hard to judge by numbers. Also, make sure you look at the diamond not under jewelery store lighting (I went into the corner at Goldstock -- man, does that make a difference!)

EDIT: my SO also had a rather bad experience at Goldstock involving a certain slimy sales associate who was a) clueless and b) more than willing to lie to him to get his business.

 

[chialea]

----------------
On 7/28/2004 9:31:32 AM lsmathis1 wrote:


Seeing that you are in PA, I'd like to suggest you take a look at Robbins Diamonds (downtown Philly at 8th & Walnutt - or their location in Deleware - no tax).


~Lisa----------------

I keep getting the feeling every time I say I live in PA that people think I live near Philly... Pittsburgh is really quite far from there.

At least for me, I'd go buy on the internet long before I'd drive 10-12 hours

 

[Pair0Ducks]

I live in Pittsburgh as well. I visited the Clark building when I was looking for a 10 year anniversary ring for my wife. After only 4-6 weeks of reading this forum and the tutorials I could tell already that many of the people in the Clark building, while better than your Jared or similar B&M store, were still quite lacking in their knowledge or willingness to teach. The prices seemed a little more reasonable than a typical store, but still not as good as on the internet. In the end I went with Dirt Cheap Diamonds and my wife LOVED her stone. This was a round though and not a fancy cut. I know little to nothing about them. I think the less you know the more you should be willing to pay a premium for knowledge and help. I've always carried the impression that GOG knows their stuff cold but are a little more expensive than other internet vendors. That might be a good place for you to go, especially if you are rushed for time. Don't make a bad purchase just because you are rushed.