shape
carat
color
clarity

I just can’t see the difference... please advise

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by LvM, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. LvM
    Rough_Rock

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    by LvM » Aug 23, 2019
    6466A1DC-7B8E-4E43-BF11-A4178D29C5DB.jpeg FCB499A4-6AF3-44B1-A154-3B0DC3CB9191.jpeg F8C84855-6212-41CD-957D-54F6131B0754.png 339C5458-5408-4AEA-9D79-43E29386C37A.jpeg

    Hi All,

    Can someone tell me if this diamond is worth buying? I’m looking for a 1.8-1.9 carat round diamond. Needs to be eye clean and around F colour.

    The above diamond has a good HCA score (1.2).
    I have seen the diamond in person and I saw that the hearts weren’t perfect. I then compared it with a 1.8 carat diamond with slightly better hearts. But I just can’t see the difference in light return.....

    My questions;

    - does heart and arrows really matter?
    - should I reject this stone when looking at the hearts of this one?
    - Is 23000 USD the right amount for it? I’m buying it in Dubai.
    - Is the ASET score ok?

    Hope you can help me out.
     
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  2. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Aug 23, 2019
    Its deeper than we'd recommend (limit is 62.4), and I'm worried about light leakage. If the stone needs to be "around" F color, then I assume G is fine, since to most people G+ looks very white. You also don't need VVS clarity unless there is cultural reasons for it. You will find almost all VS2s are eye clean, and many SI1s are as well.

    What is your max budget? I think we can find you something better
     
  3. Snowdrop13
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Snowdrop13 » Aug 23, 2019
    This is what I’d buy if I had those requirements and budget :love:

    3DB64AB0-DD01-41C6-A207-489E42928FC1.jpeg
     
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  4. LvM
    Rough_Rock

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    by LvM » Aug 23, 2019
    Thanks for your replies!

    What price would you offer the jeweller for the 1.90 vvs2 that I posted? In other words what do you think it’s worth?
     
    


    


  5. jp201845
    Shiny_Rock

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    by jp201845 » Aug 23, 2019
    The Aset image you posted shows white in the middle of the table, that indicates light leakage so I would pass on this stone.
     
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  6. tyty333
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by tyty333 » Aug 23, 2019
    The aset does not look good but not sure if its because its so heavily backlit. @Karl_K is usually pretty good at figuring out if its the lighting or
    the actual stone. You are losing some face up size due to the deeper depth. Is the high clarity due to a social requirement? If not you could drop
    clarity to VS1/2.
     
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  7. LvM
    Rough_Rock

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    by LvM » Aug 23, 2019
    EBEE8F55-9AE1-40AF-A3C8-CAE47EC7DEC1.jpeg 89DEEB90-3550-4373-9E60-777F6F5FE551.jpeg E905E09E-61C6-4256-BAD1-A13F1CF28045.jpeg Thanks for the replies and advice! Much appreciated!

    I can go down on the clarity and that’s what I asked the jeweller to do. The size is a ‘social requirement’...

    He gave me the following 1.81 ct stone (have not seen it in person yet).

    Now I’m just worried that the inclusions can be seen (see white spots in image). Also, will G colour be too low for this round diamond? hearts aren’t great. ASET looks better, right?

    What is your opinion?
    Asking price; USD 18k
     
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  8. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Aug 23, 2019
    On the first stone some of the light pink under the table appears to be overly bright backlighting. However around the 7 o'clock position that appears to be true leakage. Additionally you have other minor issues going on at 1,2 and 7 o'clock positions on the edge of the stone as evidenced by the green splotches.

    Traveling and can't mark up image for you. Hope that makes sense.
     
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  9. LvM
    Rough_Rock

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    by LvM » Aug 23, 2019

    Yes definitely makes sense!

    I feel the second stone will be better as it comes to light return. The ASET is much better in my view. Although some leakage at 1 o’clock.

    How important are the hearts? They are not ideal I think. But if it doesn’t really affect the light return of the stone, I’m happy to go ahead with this one.

    Thanks again for your help!
     
  10. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Aug 23, 2019
    I’m liking the second stone better. With vs2, even at that size, it should be eye clean, but you will have to see it in person to see what you think.

    I also like the Whiteflash stone. (Preferred)
     
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  11. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Aug 23, 2019
    The second stone also seems to have leakage. The stone posted from Whiteflash is significantly better than either of these.
     
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  12. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Aug 23, 2019
    I agree. I’m unsure about leakage because of the backlit problem, but if he has to go with this jeweler, I think the second stone has a better shot than the first one.
     
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  13. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

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    by lovedogs » Aug 23, 2019
    Oh yeah I totally agree.
     
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  14. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Aug 23, 2019
    This question is hard to answer because diamonds are worth what people are willing to pay for them. I haven’t been to Dubai so tell me, is it expected that you would make an offer from his price? His prices aren’t out there from what I can tell. He seems comparable to other places online.
     
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  15. AV_
    Ideal_Rock

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    by AV_ » Aug 23, 2019
    No real preference between the F/VVS and the G/VS, they are so alike!
     
    


    


  16. AV_
    Ideal_Rock

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    by AV_ » Aug 23, 2019
    No real preference between the F/VVS and the G/VS, they are so alike!
     
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  17. Karl_K
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by Karl_K » Aug 23, 2019
    The back lighting is so bright that the ASET is useless for stone 1.

    Both stones have some weirdness going on, notice how the ASET(2nd stone) and picture(1st stone) is not symmetrical.
    Notice the difference in the clefts in the hearts indicating different lgf%.
    This all taken together usually indicates wide ranging pavilion angles and some twist in the lowers.
     
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  18. AV_
    Ideal_Rock

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    by AV_ » Aug 23, 2019
    One more,

    2.01 D/VS1 WWW I like the broader facets (lower girdle facets length 70%), the arrows pattern is clear enough (oddly, this has the same slight fault as the Dubai stones - one arrow somewhat approximate) & the HCA 2.6 is still in the 'seeing is believing' neighbourhood (the official guidelines put a stake at 2.5 - the difference cannot matter). All in all, I like what I am seeing.

    I have certainly not looked at the entire Blue Nile inventory for distinct arrows! This stood out from among the highest grades @ 2 carats...
     
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  19. LvM
    Rough_Rock

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    by LvM » Aug 23, 2019

    I’ve rejected the 1.9 ct. it was also a bit above my budget. I feel the prices are indeed pretty in line with the market. However you expect a lower price due to lower tax in the UAE. (Only 5% VAT)

    I will continue the search, but I do like the second stone (1.81 ct) that I posted.

    Am I focusing too much on H&A? I know H&A isn’t perfect for the stone. But will you notice the difference with the naked eye between an excellent H&A and a good H&A (as I consider the second diamond to be)??

    Would love to hear your experience with regards to H&A.
     
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  20. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Aug 23, 2019
    Glad to hear that.

    Looking at the second image you have leakage from approximately 1-3 o'clock.

    Additionally the 35.5/40.8 isn't the most complimentary combo. You are pushing the steepness of the crown and would want a shallower pavilion (40.6) to better compliment it. Crown and pavilion angles work on inverse relationships to maximize performance (steep crown/shallow pavilion or vice versa).

    If that crown was a 34.5 combined with a 40.8 pavilion, you'd likely have a leakage free ASET assuming table and depth was correct.

    General rules:
    • 54-57 table
    • 60-62.4 depth (prefer < 62)
    • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, if paired w/ 40.6 pavilion)
    • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired w/ 34 crown)
    • 75-80 LGF
    • Inverse relationship on the crown & pavilion, meaning steep crown/shallow pavilion or vice versa
    • HCA score of 2 or less, but possibly up to 2.5 if cut & symmetry is spot on
     
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  21. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Aug 23, 2019
    Well, you are asking a bunch of obsessive compulsive diamond enthusiasts about whether we will notice.. it’s possible we would.

    The average person/her friends/her family? Most likely not. You are already doing so much better than the average person.
     
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  22. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Aug 23, 2019
    I guess it depends on the person viewing the diamond, because beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.

    That said, I'm a performance guy. I like going fast in cars and willing to squeeze out every ounce that helps me run the 1320 in 9.9 seconds vs 10.1 seconds. To some, that is virtually the same time but in reality you are going a quarter mile in 0.2 seconds, which is cool.

    Okay, back to diamonds. Now, when we look at a report, we see a single crown & pavilion angle reported. Reality is there are 8 of them. If you get a detailed SARIN report, you can see what the 8 actual values are, but for the report they are averaged together (and with GIA reports, they are also rounded to the nearest 0.5 for crown and 0.2 for pavilion -- AGS doesn't round). So when we see angle combos, etc from a report we are making a rough estimation based on known factors. The ASET and H&A images help us get a better feel for the cut & symmetrical quality of the stone in question.

    It's very uncommon to get a SARIN report, but if we had one for the diamonds shown above you would see where the actual values get wonky in the areas we see the imperfections in the ASET and H&A images.

    If you think of a diamond like a complex maze of mirrors, then you begin to appreciate how a stone with true H&A symmetry maximizes light performance. And we are back to that 9.9 and 10.1 second quarter mile time. Which driver are you? To some 0.2 is everything, and to others it's nothing. But one thing is certain, a difference does exist.

    These articles may help...

    https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/news/are-hearts-and-arrows-diamonds-worth-it/
    https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/news/how-important-are-hearts-and-arrows-in-diamonds/
    https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/news/are-hearts-and-arrows-diamonds-worth-the-premium/
     
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  23. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Aug 23, 2019
    A few H&A options....

    WF ACA 1.873 F VS2 @ $23,450
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4059365.htm


    WF ACA 1.723 F SI @ $18,264
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4150021.htm

    Maximize your savings with an EYE CLEAN stone, and killer specs.


    WF ES 1.736 F VS1 @ $19,662
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4065506.htm

    The ES (expert select) is a near miss ACA (a cut above), but as you can see is gorgeous stone. Love those fat arrows and small table! Lots of bang for the buck here.
     
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  24. SMGB
    Rough_Rock

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    by SMGB » Aug 23, 2019
    We all want the best diamond for our money but remember, people will not be looking at your diamond like the photos above. I have a 1.67 IVs2 and I can’t see any inclusions with my eye even if I put my glasses on and it’s 6 inches from my face lol. As for color, it looks white with very little yellow but diamonds also pick up surrounding colors. The info my jeweler gave me was if the diamond has inclusions to make sure they’re white so they will blend in. Good luck in your search.
     
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  25. Dancing Fire
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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  26. KKJohnson
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by KKJohnson » Aug 23, 2019

    +1
     
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  27. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Aug 23, 2019
    Agree with ya'll. While I listed a few different options, that one also spoke to me. Timing isn't right, or I'd consider for my wife.

    OP, if you are seriously considering then please place on hold so someone doesn't snipe it out from under you while you decide.
     

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