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I am beginning to think I am a Libertarian at heart

redwood66

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I have been mulling over my list that I posted to Gypsy and pondering some more on other views I have. Because out of control government spending and the lack of restraint and integrity on the part of the government are at the top of my list, I truly think I am a Libertarian.

Last night I saw this Stossel episode and it clicked. If you don't like either of our candidates then you will appreciate the first 2 minutes. It is a full episode and is about 40 mins long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUCxx0QJBGs

ETA - Foreign policy might be one of the things that keep me from fully deciding this.
 

Gypsy

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Yayayayay! I am SO happy! You know why? I was going to say that to you in our other thread! But I was afraid it would be condecending to tell you what you are. But yes! Your views IMO are much more in line with Liberatarians. And that is a good thing. :appl: :appl:
 

redwood66

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Gypsy|1471131349|4065670 said:
Yayayayay! I am SO happy! You know why? I was going to say that to you in our other thread! But I was afraid it would be condecending to tell you what you are. But yes! Your views IMO are much more in line with Liberatarians. And that is a good thing. :appl: :appl:

:lol: I thought you might.
 

NonieMarie

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My understanding about the Libertarian Party is that they are economically conservative but somewhat socially liberal. I watched part of the interview by Anderson Cooper and the LP nominees. The one thing that gives me pause is giving so much power to the states. I do not trust states to enact laws that would provide equal education, health or citizen's rights. I need to check out the above link.
 

AGBF

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Hi, Red-

I was just delighted to hear that you and your husband have been discussing not voting for Trump. It was your being willing to vote for Trump that always upset me. I understood that he was not the person you wanted to represent you, but I didn't understand how you could say you didn't (or weren't) supporting him if you were going to vote for him.

I can very well understand anyone not wanting to vote for Secretary Clinton, and in any other year I could understand that leading to a vote for a Republican candidate. At least if it were Mitt Romney or John McCain or someone reasonable. As I have said to Dancing Fire, although I think he did irreparable damage in the Middle East, which led to trouble (due to the refugee crisis) in Europe, the US even lived through George W Bush! (We survived him better than other parts of the world did!) It is only Donald Trump who is so far beyond the pale that his election is unthinkable.

Deb
 

arkieb1

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:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: And you know what many left wingers like myself share many of your views on immigration, so you might be surprised to know that we aren't as far apart in our thinking as you would assume. I personally am not anti-immigration at all, but I have long held the view that countries like the US and many places in Europe should screen who enters their countries far better than they currently do, and also have a three strikes you are out and sent home policy for minor crimes and an automatic cancellation of citizenship and sent back home to those who commit major crimes.
 

Gypsy

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Arkie I realize you are not from the US, so let me just clarify.

The US government CAN NOT cancel US CITIZENSHIP.
Anymore than you could deport home born Citizens for major crimes and cancel their citizenship. That's what it MEANS TO BE A CITIZEN in the US. Once you are a citizen you are the same as ANY other citizen with ONE exception: you cannot be President. That's it.

In all other ways you are EQUAL under the law as someone born here, and CONSTITUTIONALLY you CANNOT at that point be treated differently than any OTHER citizen. The ONLY way they could do that is if they stated that ANY citizen convicted of a major crime would be kicked out, have their citizenship revoked, and deported. And they CAN NOT do that in the US. It would NEVER be allowed under the Constitution.

BUT, and I will go into this in detail in the immigration thread. The road to Citizenship is a very LONG one, despite the impression many people have.

You have to be a Permanent Resident for many years, fulfill residency and other requirements.

So while you cannot deport or 'cancel' citizenship once it is obtained, there is a very long period of time before they are a citizen and the standards for ACTUALLY becoming a citizen DO ALREADY include that felons of major crimes are prevented from becoming a citizen.

Many people are completely unaware of the exisiting safe guards we have in place. Read here: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/crimes-that-will-prevent-you-from-receiving-us-citizenship.html
 

arkieb1

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Yep, I've read many of your constitutional arguments on immigration and on gun control laws..... here and in the UK there was what some see as a knee jerk reaction to potential terror threats and this is what occurred;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-25/bradley-how-you-could-lose-your-citizenship/6572382

This is an older article that summarises the foundations of what occurred here;

http://theconversation.com/theres-more-to-be-lost-than-gained-in-stripping-citizenship-37916

http://www.australasianlawyer.com.au/news/new-laws-mean-australia-may-deport-thousands-of-kiwis-206121.aspx

Here it started with dual citizens and expanded to apply to all citizens, I think you will find given Trump's popularity there is a growing world wide movement to not only to better screen but to also have more power in whom all of our countries can remove, and as far as I am aware the US was looking at other countries to see what was and was not working. It might be unconstitutional but with a country with crime and for that matter unemployment as out of control as yours, and the millions of dollars our governments spend surveilling potential terror threats, it might surprise you what the policies makers could be willing to consider in the future.

There are cases of citizens here that have gone and fought against ISIS that have been detained and refused entry back into the country, which I have always thought was nuts. I think eventually after a lot of legal wrangling one guy that was from Sydney got back in again, but I don't think they made it easy for him.

http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2015/03/25/Awkward-contradictions-in-Australian-foreign-fighter-laws.aspx
 

Gypsy

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Arkie, that would literally be the equivalent of using the US Constitution as toilet paper. You would strip the entire foundation of what our country is based on.

I cannot imagine it happening here. Maybe I am naive. But I really cannot see it happening here.
 

arkieb1

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I don't know that we disagree Gypsy, I think there should be some medium in the middle, ours is a system that is too harsh and yours is a system that, dare I say it, needs reform. No question the way we treat our detained citizens is appalling, if you are interested watch this story, I cried crocodile tears over this one;

http://www.abc.net.au/austory/content/2015/s4418734.htm

The transcript if it doesn't work;

http://www.abc.net.au/austory/content/2015/s4418797.htm

On the flip side of that we had families, men women, small children drowning at sea on boats trying to get here, these harsh laws have to a large degree stopped the boats, and prevented hundreds of deaths, but no I don't agree with stripping people of their civil rights and allowing them to rot in detention centres for years either.

One of the issues I see is that both illegal and legal immigrants are allowed into your country and they are not always able to trace, let alone find a full history of crimes like rape and other violet crimes committed by some of these people. So the three strikes you are out or the idea of a trial citizenship period might seem unconstitutional but it allows the benefit of the doubt, if they are law abiding citizens no issues you go on to have full citizenship if you are not then there has to be some sort of deterrents other than what many see as your somewhat broken incarceration system. I've read statistically that some of these people then join gangs in prison and go on to recommit the same or worse crimes, so I can't help but wonder what the threat of being returned home would do as an outcome instead.
 

Gypsy

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Arkie you are missing my point entirely. We already have a trail period. To become a citizen you first have to be a Permanent Resident for 5 years. That IS your trial period. Okay?

We have it already. But once you are a citizen you are afforded full rights like any natural born citizen.
 

Gypsy

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As for our incarceration system. Yes it is completely broken and doesn't just need repair it needs a complete overhaul.
 

arkieb1

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Gypsy|1471164956|4065801 said:
Arkie you are missing my point entirely. We already have a trail period. To become a citizen you first have to be a Permanent Resident for 5 years. That IS your trial period. Okay?

We have it already. But once you are a citizen you are afforded full rights like any natural born citizen.
O.K so why isn't it working? People commit crimes after 5 years or they don't actually look closely enough at the crimes they have committed during that time? Perhaps I have misread things, but there is a distinct notion here in Australia that you do not examine those you allow to become citizens closely enough. In fact I'd guess you could probably argue that same sentiment exists within the US, which is in part, what has allowed Trump to become so popular.
 

arkieb1

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I talked to a dual US/Australian citizen and he said the same thing, so I stand corrected, it's a gross misconception that it's easy to become a US citizen apparently it isn't. On the other side of that, he did say it's 200% easier to be an illegal citizen in the US than it is here.
 

Gypsy

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:praise:
arkieb1|1471170801|4065814 said:
I talked to a dual US/Australian citizen and he said the same thing, so I stand corrected, it's a gross misconception that it's easy to become a US citizen apparently it isn't. On the other side of that, he did say it's 200% easier to be an illegal citizen in the US than it is here.
Hysteria, 24 hour news netwoks with nothing better to do than 'opine' for ratings, a voting populace that is lazy entitled and fundamentally ignorant about how our actual immigration system works.
 

Bayek

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redwood66|1471123103|4065614 said:
I have been mulling over my list that I posted to Gypsy and pondering some more on other views I have. Because out of control government spending and the lack of restraint and integrity on the part of the government are at the top of my list, I truly think I am a Libertarian.

Last night I saw this Stossel episode and it clicked. If you don't like either of our candidates then you will appreciate the first 2 minutes. It is a full episode and is about 40 mins long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUCxx0QJBGs

ETA - Foreign policy might be one of the things that keep me from fully deciding this.
You are a wonderful lady! I am impressed by you and you give me hope! I understand being a libertarian.. I was one when I was in college.. introspection and thinking about one's self is a great thing Redwood!! much much peace to you!

kate
 

redwood66

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Thank you guys. You are pretty funny though. If there weren't a Trump this reflection probably would not have happened for me. He has upended the republican party and seeing the fallout of who is with him and who is not (politicians) is frustrating. I would gladly vote for Mitt, Kasich or Ted every day and twice on Sunday. Maybe even Jeb. So I will not be moving left any time soon. I appreciate your thoughts and your respect for my views. :wavey:

Peace to you kate.
 

Bayek

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redwood66|1471219540|4066075 said:
Thank you guys. You are pretty funny though. If there weren't a Trump this reflection probably would not have happened for me. He has upended the republican party and seeing the fallout of who is with him and who is not (politicians) is frustrating. I would gladly vote for Mitt, Kasich or Ted every day and twice on Sunday. Maybe even Jeb. So I will not be moving left any time soon. I appreciate your thoughts and your respect for my views. :wavey:

Peace to you kate.



Thank you my friend.. I so respect women who introspect but so much believe in who they are.. Red, I respect your view, it's your America, truly!!! it's mine too.. we see a different view perhaps.. but we both know whatever happens it's the best of America!

:
 

Gypsy

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Look I know my standards are high and unreasonable.

But it kills me when people pick a party for whatever reason, pretzel themselves into it's confirnes and then stick to that party through some bewildering sense of loyalty.

In my opinion, you pick your views FIRST. You start by looking inward. Then you decide where you stand on individual issues. Then you read each party's platform and decide what fits YOU. And if that changes that's okay. Switch parties.

Redwood have you read the Republican Platform this year? It is so beholden to the Christian Fundementalists that it is truly alarming. And I am not talking about the anti-science bent of it. Imdo not see it matxhing your views much at all.

I do not vote straight line Democrat and personally would be voting for Gary Johnson rather than Hillary if Trump/ Pence were not on the other side. And Johnson is to the right of me, but he is a GENUINELY devoted and qualified civil servant. And that means a lot in this election. And I do believe that HE would be able to be a uniter instead of a divider if he were President.


So, I really admire and respect your introspection.
 

redwood66

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I do understand everything you posted and yes I did read the entire platform as I do every cycle. Our exchanges have been good for me and I hope you have at least enjoyed them a bit.
 

Gypsy

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They've been good for me too and I have enjoyed them.
 

redwood66

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Well you are quite a bit nicer..... :lol:
 

Gypsy

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I am a nice person when I respect you. It's a huge flaw of mine, and it is getting WORSE not better. I see "Republican and voting for Trump" as a defect of character and lose all respect for anyone with that label the minute I hear it. Like a flag in front of a bull. It is something I need to work on, I know.

I KNOW intellectually that there must be truly good Republicans voting the party line but even then the "good ones" I have MET personally pretty much know fall into these categories (or some combination of the following): 1) want to inflict their moral code on everyone with regard to abortion, LGBTQ rights, assisted suicide, and the lack of separation of church and state 2) have rarely had an independent thought with respect to political issues and exist in an echo chamber of media and peer pressure that demonizes the Left and that overrides any kind of common sense or introspection; they have never attempted to fact check or research any issue to determine if their representatives are being honest and when challenged by facts and reality deny both in order to keep their head in the sand 3) are entitled or scared white people who want to maintain their social superiority and deep down blame the "brown" for all the problems of the country and in their own personal lives and do not admit to this, even to themselves, and tell themselves comforting story's about all the brown people they know and like (and since they are generously friends with them, they can't possibly be racists) or 4) are non-whites of a certain tax bracket that only care about their personal finances and vote their pocketbook.

My cousin's MIL is one of the loveliest women I have ever met. She's #1. She'll give you the shirt off her back, take you in and give you anything you want. Doesn't care about color or race or wealth. But she's very firm on what is "right" for everyone morally, and actually thinks HER personal liberties are being attacked when she is not allowed to inflict her moral compass on others.

My own MIL is #2. She actually is socially moderate and aligns very strongly with YOUR views. But she does not have the capacity to look inward or to think critically and just votes "Republican" even though she is in ACTUALITY a Libertarian like you.

I have two liberal friends whose husband's are, respectively #3 and #4. My niece is #3 (the one from the other thread).

And those are the categories of 'good" ones. Then there are the bad ones. Those go beyond the 4 categories I've listed above, and I will refrain from summarizing them, because if I did, I'd probably be banned from PS till after the election. One example of someone I consider a "bad" Republican:

My BIL a couple months after 9/11, as I am sitting at a family dinner in the dining room says, "We should just drop a nuke on all the Middle East I do not know why we don't" and when I pointed out that I am from the Middle East and that there are MANY MANY people who are trapped there (immigration costs money folks), living in the region that do not in any way support fundamentalists like those that are engaging in terrorist activities, INCLUDING my own extended family. He ARGUED WITH ME, until my husband told him to shove it and we left. The rest of the family (all Republicans) stayed, giving their tacit approval for his comments (IMO). I later heard him repeating the same EXACT same sentiment when he thought I couldn't hear and he feels that way to this day. He is fervently pro-Trump and will rejoice if we ever commit genocide in this manner.

So yes, I see yellow (pun intended) when I hear the word Republican these days. And when Republican is pared with "voting for Trump" I see RED Or ORANGE (puns intended). I have become intolerant due to my experiences. And I know that painting all Republicans with such a broad brush is wrong. But I genuinely believe that any TRULY good thoughtful, engaged Republicans are few and far between and those are NOT voting for Trump. AND that most of them are Libertarians, and just don't know it.

So yeah, I fully admit it. It's become a knee jerk response in me. If you are a self identified Republican and voting for Trump my default is that you are either a good one but fall into buckets 1-4 respectively (summarized as Evangelical, Willfully ignorant, Racist, or Greedy) at best. And not someone I want in breathing the same air I do at worst.
 

redwood66

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I appreciate you taking the time to lay out your views on this. Does your MIL have viable libertarian candidates to vote for? I think deep down I have known these things about my views but never took the time to actually write them out (thanks PS friends). In the 3 states I have lived over the last 3+ decades there has never been a viable libertarian candidate who would get anywhere in any election. Since my views align more closely with republican ones that was a natural choice. Until now of course.

As far as respect my career in corrections had a profound impact on my view of it. Respect could not be required or forced from convicts (or other staff), it had to be earned. Some people had a hard time coming to grips with the fact they had to earn respect from an inmate. But if you didn't your job was 10 times harder and more dangerous than it had to be. Having respect from inmates did not mean that you did not do your job but you should be respectful that they are a person. I had respect from the convicts and when I had issues with young, stupid inmates those older convicts took care of it and I had no more problems from them. It was a delicate balance and I always had to realize the dangerous place I worked.

So I think that we started off on the wrong foot because I did not see that I did anything to you personally to cause such a reaction from you. I immediately became defensive. Glad it all worked out in the end. :D
 

Gypsy

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Regarding MIL, the woman doesn't like to think for herself. I love my MIL. She sincerely has the best heart and is a wonderful person. She's just lazy. SMART, but lazy.

My DH has tried to talk to her about it. But she just doesn't want to be bothered. Doesn't understand that it is her duty as a citizen TO CARE to THINK to do more than just parrot views of others without thinking twice about them. My DH is more moderate than I am. He is very liberal socially and supports some social programs. He is a liberatarian but one that is more wary about "the state" -- there is some term for it. I would have no issue if she said, I am voting this way because... some reason that at least has a passing acquaintance with thoughtful consideration. But no, she just hits "Republican" straight line on everything with no thought.

Regarding your background in corrections, you may want to correct my errors of thinking and understanding in the immigration thread. I posted about reform of our justice system. And I am far from an expert. I hope you'll tell me your thoughts and what YOU think the solutions should be or could be.

:wavey:
 

NewEnglandLady

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Redwood, I really enjoy your posts (I never participate in the political threads, but enjoy reading them) and I also felt you were more libertarian. I'm also a libertarian and have been for many years. It makes you feel even more disjointed from the political candidates. Unless you vote for a third party or write in a candidate's name, it feels like you're selling out to a "lesser of two evils" vote. Although this election is unique in that quite a few people feel that way, even if they don't belong to a third party.

Being a libertarian feels politically lonely. I have members of my family who are both democratic and republican and I can't have a political discussion with any of them unless it's a very narrow topic that we both agree on. I also feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding about what a libertarian is. I usually just keep my mouth shut when there is any political discussion because it's just not worth it to jump in the fray.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know I enjoy your posts and am always happy when people continue to explore their political views.
 

redwood66

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NELady this was such a thoughtful and helpful post for me! I appreciate someone who feels exactly how I do even if I did not fully acknowledge it until two days ago. I have enjoyed and cursed this journey. :lol:
 
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