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HRD Certification

Bidough12

Rough_Rock
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Oct 20, 2011
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7
I have a deposit on a diamond with a HRD certificate. Based on some research it appears that HRD is comparible to GIA, as a european version. If I am located in the US, are there any disadvantages to having a HRD diamond? Insurance, appraisals, otherwise? Thank you for any input.
 

mastercut

Shiny_Rock
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126
As for the accuracy - HRD Antwerpen is definitely at least as strict as GIA, maybe even more.
 

Rockdiamond

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HRD is nowhere near GIA in terms of credibility in the US.
Personally, I don't see that being in a different Continent changes things, but others have said they like HRD if they are in Europe.
I've seen HRD reports that were two grades softer than GIA's with my own two eyes.

For US buyers consider HRD just like EGL- not to be used to set prices, like GIA or AGSL.
And if a dealer is telling you HRD has parity with GIA, that's a HUGE red flag.
 

mastercut

Shiny_Rock
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Messages
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Rockdiamond|1319138354|3044338 said:
HRD is nowhere near GIA in terms of credibility in the US.
Personally, I don't see that being in a different Continent changes things, but others have said they like HRD if they are in Europe.
I've seen HRD reports that were two grades softer than GIA's with my own two eyes.

For US buyers consider HRD just like EGL- not to be used to set prices, like GIA or AGSL.
And if a dealer is telling you HRD has parity with GIA, that's a HUGE red flag.
Of course, how could a lab from Antewerp be as good as GIA? :) Never :)
I have seen many GIA SI1 that HRD would never grade even as SI2 and many GIA VS2 that HRD would grade SI2. I even resent one GIA stone to HRD and got both clarity and color one grade lower grading than GIA.

On the other hand, for the U.S. consumer a stone with GIA/AGSL is probably better - excellent and well-known labs. We in Europe respect HRD at least as much GIA.
 

Bidough12

Rough_Rock
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Rockdiamond|1319138354|3044338 said:
HRD is nowhere near GIA in terms of credibility in the US.
Personally, I don't see that being in a different Continent changes things, but others have said they like HRD if they are in Europe.
I've seen HRD reports that were two grades softer than GIA's with my own two eyes.

For US buyers consider HRD just like EGL- not to be used to set prices, like GIA or AGSL.
And if a dealer is telling you HRD has parity with GIA, that's a HUGE red flag.
Interesting. Most research I have read and also posts here indicate HRD is on par if not stricter than GIA as a comparison between labs. They are just not as well known in the USA. My question concerned the issue of buying a HRD graded stone in the USA. What are any concerns from
Appraisals or insurance? Would an appraiser value it less with a HRD cert vs GIA?
 

mastercut

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
126
Bidough12|1319162318|3044575 said:
Rockdiamond|1319138354|3044338 said:
HRD is nowhere near GIA in terms of credibility in the US.
Personally, I don't see that being in a different Continent changes things, but others have said they like HRD if they are in Europe.
I've seen HRD reports that were two grades softer than GIA's with my own two eyes.

For US buyers consider HRD just like EGL- not to be used to set prices, like GIA or AGSL.
And if a dealer is telling you HRD has parity with GIA, that's a HUGE red flag.
Interesting. Most research I have read and also posts here indicate HRD is on par if not stricter than GIA as a comparison between labs. They are just not as well known in the USA. My question concerned the issue of buying a HRD graded stone in the USA. What are any concerns from
Appraisals or insurance? Would an appraiser value it less with a HRD cert vs GIA?

Personally I would never be afraid of buying a HRD certified stone. I know them very well and they are very strict.
In general a good appraiser shouldn´t put a lower value, it would be a nonsense. Just find a true professional.
 

tenyearanniversary

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
144
I bought my diamond with HRD cert from Antwerp.

I just got it regraded by GIA.

HRD says it is F color, VVS2, Excellent cut
GIA says it is E color, VVS2, Good cut.

Interesting, no?!
 

mastercut

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
126
tenyearanniversary|1319196969|3044731 said:
I bought my diamond with HRD cert from Antwerp.

I just got it regraded by GIA.

HRD says it is F color, VVS2, Excellent cut
GIA says it is E color, VVS2, Good cut.

Interesting, no?!
No surprise for me. As I said HRD is really very strict in colour/clarity, even more than GIA. The cut grading difference is rather strange anyway. Do you have the exact cut data like angles from both the reports?
 

Bidough12

Rough_Rock
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Did the appraiser have any issues with it being a HRD cert?
I assume you are in the US?
Thank you.
 

Upgradable

Ideal_Rock
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My stone is HRD I SI2 and I disagree with the grading. It is SI1 at the MOST! I'm completely happy.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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r3179cert.jpg
r3179cert_0.jpg

It's VERY important to remember in this type of discussion- the grading report is only important in trading and identification.
It says NOTHING about the beauty of a given diamond.
IOW- having an EGL, or HRD report does not mean a diamond is "bad" in any way.
BUT- representation is an important aspect in any deal involving a diamond.
I'm not "anti Europe" in least little bit.
A fact of life in the diamond business for the last ( who knows how many ) years- is the dominance of the US in the market- more diamonds were sold here than in Europe- by a LARGE factor.
This may or may not change, but the status quo is that HRD has no market effect whatsoever.
For every HRD report there's likely 100 GIA reports on the market.
SO, it's not that I'm saying GIA is better due to my love of America.
But the effects of the predominance of the US market have had pervasive effects on how to evaluate diamonds.
The example above shows a large discrepancy between GIA and HRD on the same diamond.
IN fact, every time I've been offered a diamond with an HRD report there's been a similar discrepancy.
Having said that, I've seen thousands of GIA reports for every HRD I've seen- so I am ( believe it or not) tempering my words.

For US buyers, there's no debate- HRD is virtually unknown.
This means that if you own a diamond with an HRD, and you want to sell, you'll need to send it off to GIA to get top dollar.
Personally I think the readers of this forum outside the US should follow the same advice- but it's great to hear different opinions.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Bidough12|1319162318|3044575 said:
Appraisals or insurance? Would an appraiser value it less with a HRD cert vs GIA?
An appraiser doing reports for insurance is generally estimating what it would cost to replace the item with another of like kind and quality, at retail, locally. If you have an HRD, they're going to estimate what it will cost to replace with another HRD, at specialty jewelry store and in your town. They're a bit scarcer than GIA, especially in the US, but they ARE available and they're not even all that hard to find if you know where to look. I assure you, the replacement people know where to look (although I must say that that HRD horsehead cut that David posted in the post ahead of me would be a bear to replace). It's not a matter of a premium or a discount for a particular lab and the stone is whatever it is no matter what lab graded it. It's a mistake to use relative insurance replacement value as a shopping tool unless you go into it very very carefully and understanding what your limitations are in this sort of analysis. They are considerable. A stone with the steepest discount from the 'replacement value' is not necessarily the best deal. In fact it probably isn't.
 

Cabochon1

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
112
Hi Rockdiamond, Is this really the same diamond? The number of lower facets pictured in the two certificates is completely different. Is this normal? I had previously seen small variations especially regarding extra facets and such but this is really astonishing.

Regarding the main topic of this thread. It is not surprising that the cut grade of the HRD certificate is better than GIA. The cut grades don't compare at all. HRD has a very broad range for their excellent cut grade for round diamonds. The only thing you can do is compare the actual numbers.

Cabochon
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Cabochon said:
Hi Rockdiamond, Is this really the same diamond? The number of lower facets pictured in the two certificates is completely different. Is this normal? I had previously seen small variations especially regarding extra facets and such but this is really astonishing.

Regarding the main topic of this thread. It is not surprising that the cut grade of the HRD certificate is better than GIA. The cut grades don't compare at all. HRD has a very broad range for their excellent cut grade for round diamonds. The only thing you can do is compare the actual numbers.

Cabochon
Yes, completely sure.
For a number of reasons.
1) We purchased the diamond with the HRD report and submitted it to GIA.
Facet diagrams are often standard diagrams for each shape- and not an actual drawing of the diamond

2) As Neil mentioned, how many 4ct Horse-head diamonds are even out there at all??
 

mastercut

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
126
Even if the GIA was very strict with this horse diamond I am very surprised of the softness of the HRD in this case. I can understand SI2 / I1 difference - sometimes it stays SI2, sometimes drops to I1... but 2 GRADES in colour! The HRD guy had a blind day.
However I have seen many opposite cases - stones resent to HRD/IGI Antwerp getting lower than the previous GIA grading.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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When I first saw the stone, I had no hesitation grading- it was I1- as opposed to a stone that was a borderline case ( SI3)

Having said all this- I have also heard others here who are both credible, and in Europe say they trust HRD.
It's kind of strange......
 

mastercut

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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Rockdiamond|1319405799|3046065 said:
When I first saw the stone, I had no hesitation grading- it was I1- as opposed to a stone that was a borderline case ( SI3)

Having said all this- I have also heard others here who are both credible, and in Europe say they trust HRD.
It's kind of strange......
Looking at the GIA report diagram there is no doubt the stone obviously can´t be SI2. I am really surprised how poor work HRD did...
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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mastercut|1319405650|3046061 said:
Even if the GIA was very strict with this horse diamond I am very surprised of the softness of the HRD in this case. I can understand SI2 / I1 difference - sometimes it stays SI2, sometimes drops to I1... but 2 GRADES in colour! The HRD guy had a blind day.
However I have seen many opposite cases - stones resent to HRD/IGI Antwerp getting lower than the previous GIA grading.
Maybe the GIA guy had a blind day :devil:
No really..., two years apart and on a horse's head..., please do take into consideration these shapes are novelty shapes and will depend greatly on the position of the stone when graded for color taken into consideration 4 clefts (or whatever you call those inward cuts that cause extremely thick girdle parts.
In any case it's not a good example to show inconsistency in Diamond color grading.
 

mastercut

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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DiaGem|1319406179|3046072 said:
mastercut|1319405650|3046061 said:
Even if the GIA was very strict with this horse diamond I am very surprised of the softness of the HRD in this case. I can understand SI2 / I1 difference - sometimes it stays SI2, sometimes drops to I1... but 2 GRADES in colour! The HRD guy had a blind day.
However I have seen many opposite cases - stones resent to HRD/IGI Antwerp getting lower than the previous GIA grading.
Maybe the GIA guy had a blind day :devil:
No really..., two years apart and on a horse's head..., please do take into consideration these shapes are novelty shapes and will depend greatly on the position of the stone when graded for color taken into consideration 4 clefts (or whatever you call those inward cuts that cause extremely thick girdle parts.
In any case it's not a good example to show inconsistency in Diamond color grading.
Maybe he did :)

It really had to be very difficult grading such a stone. Actually I have never seen so big difference in round stones grading between GIA and HRD.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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I understand what you're saying Yoram- but this was clearly a K color- leaning towards L, not J.

I know you've mentioned that you find HRD to be a good lab- and I place a lot of value on your opinion.
But it's very strange that every time a dealer shows me an HRD graded stone in NYC, it's a similar story.
That is to say, stones clearly misgraded.
Mastercut- I've seen similar discrepancies with Round diamonds graded by HRD

Maybe the good ones stay in Europe?
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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Rockdiamond|1319406548|3046079 said:
I understand what you're saying Yoram- but this was clearly a K color- leaning towards L, not J.
In any case..., a Horse head with 4 clefts is not the right example for this topic. Do you have any round examples?
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Labs face a peculiar problem as businesses. If they get it ‘right’ 80% of the time, right being defined as dead on with GIA, and they’re high 10% of the time and low 10% of the time, most would agree that that’s a fine record. Not that that makes 100% happy customers. The dealer who received the 10% that are too harsh is going to be ticked and is highly likely to resubmit them to some other lab. Now they’ve got 88% dead on and 12% generous in the marketplace (and 10% annoyed customers). The reputation starts to slide. Now half the dealers with the dead-on’s get them regraded because they have to sell at a discount for the pedigree and they don't want to put up with that unless they get to apply it to a generous grade. Now they’ve got 20% generous, 80% right and none too harsh. Their reputation on the street just went from pretty good to mediocre while the record at the lab is completely unchanged. This, of course, does nothing at all for the customer who buys the stone at the end of the chain. It is what it is, but it sure does a lot to raise the stress levels along the way.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Phenomenal assessment Neil!!

I can only use my own experience, and the first time this came up, and Diagem disagreed, I was stunned.

Basically, following Neil's logic:
Belgian cutter XYZ imports 100 stones with HRD reports to their US office.
That office grades the stones- the ones with HRD grades that are too strict, or par with what they expect GIA to give, go to GIA- because in the US stones with GIA fetch higher prices.
That leaves the pool of softly graded stones with their HRD reports here in NYC. Which grows, further propagating the myth.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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DiaGem|1319408338|3046113 said:
Rockdiamond|1319406548|3046079 said:
I understand what you're saying Yoram- but this was clearly a K color- leaning towards L, not J.
In any case..., a Horse head with 4 clefts is not the right example for this topic. Do you have any round examples?
I'll try to find a some HRD stones and see what we find.
of course I'd have to really like one to send it to GIA:)
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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I personally know dealers who employ the following strategy:

First, buy or cut a bunch of stones.

Grade them yoursefl and decide what the 'correct' grade is. Then send them ALL to EGL Israel for a pre-grade.
When they come back, send them all to EGL-USA for the same treatment.
If you expect a GIA cut grade of good or less, print the report form whichever of the above will produce the most money and move it on to the sales channel.
If you expect an AGS-0, send it to AGSL. Otherwise send them ALL to GIA.
When they come back, make a strategic decision. Keep GIA or discard it and order the report from one of the EGL's.
AGS1's go to GIA to become excellent or get printed as one of the EGL's if that's not expected results from GIA.
If you're happy with the results from GIA, sell 'em and laugh on the way to the bank. If you're unhappy and you think you've got a case, complain to GIA and pray for an upgrade. Otherwise print the report from one of the EGL's and call it done. Every stone ends up with the maximum pedigree and increasing prices by even a few percent easilly covers the lab fees and then some. It ties up your money for a few months but, at todays interst rates, who cares? Diamonds are going up and cash is flat.

The reason for this is obvious and it would be easy enough to include HRD, IGI or any other lab in this procedure if the customer base supports it. It accellerates the bad reputation of EGL among informed consumers and it makes a profit for the dealer. It's hard to shed tears for EGL about this, it's mostly self inflicted, they're minting money from it. They're an enormously successful company and are growing quickly, but it always gives me pause when I hear customers who are going to game the system by buying stones graded by a non-premium lab in the hopes of finding a bargain. It's good to remember that you aren't the only person gaming the system and these folks are serious pros who do it for a living.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Bidough12|1319130634|3044247 said:
I have a deposit on a diamond with a HRD certificate. Based on some research it appears that HRD is comparible to GIA, as a european version. If I am located in the US, are there any disadvantages to having a HRD diamond? Insurance, appraisals, otherwise? Thank you for any input.
By the way, I apologize for the threadjack in the above post. No, there is not a disadvantage to having a stone graded by HRD. There is a disadvantage to having a stone that isn't properly graded but this is an option from ANY lab, including GIA. My observation has been that HRD is a high quality outfit and the fact that they don't sell well in the US is a marketing problem, not a defect in the stones.
 

mastercut

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
126
Rockdiamond|1319406548|3046079 said:
I understand what you're saying Yoram- but this was clearly a K color- leaning towards L, not J.

I know you've mentioned that you find HRD to be a good lab- and I place a lot of value on your opinion.
But it's very strange that every time a dealer shows me an HRD graded stone in NYC, it's a similar story.
That is to say, stones clearly misgraded.
Mastercut- I've seen similar discrepancies with Round diamonds graded by HRD

Maybe the good ones stay in Europe?

I would say the very most of them are very good actually. Of course I have seen only the stones in Europe. And as for GIA stones in Europe - a very wide range there is - many are strictly graded and many are quite soft.
 

oldminer

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A diamond's value arises from the perception of the dealers who are trading the stone with one another compared to the grading report that it might happen to have. At least in the USA, a GIA graded diamond is easier to market than any other lab report diamond. Easier to sell means more rapid turnover and that is key to profitability in a market where inventory turn is critical. From the consumer's point of view an HRD paper, AGS paper or GIA paper are basically equivalent. I don't think HRD has a hidden agenda favoring certain clients just like we believe AGSL and GIA don't do that sort of thing.

If a consumer wants to sell a large diamond, the way dealers will want to grade it generally is with GIA paper. Having a GIA report from the start makes the selling a bit easier, but if the paper is old, then the stone likely will go back to GIA for a new report. Standards seem to have changed over time, in spite of lab insistance to the contrary, and current report grading is how diamonds are most often traded by dealers.

Good dealers and good appraisers don't need any paper to place a value on a diamond, but having a document takes the guesswork out of the process and prevents a buyer from guessing low on purpose.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Oldminer said:
A diamond's value arises from the perception of the dealers who are trading the stone with one another compared to the grading report that it might happen to have. At least in the USA, a GIA graded diamond is easier to market than any other lab report diamond. Easier to sell means more rapid turnover and that is key to profitability in a market where inventory turn is critical. From the consumer's point of view an HRD paper, AGS paper or GIA paper are basically equivalent. I don't think HRD has a hidden agenda favoring certain clients just like we believe AGSL and GIA don't do that sort of thing.

If a consumer wants to sell a large diamond, the way dealers will want to grade it generally is with GIA paper. Having a GIA report from the start makes the selling a bit easier, but if the paper is old, then the stone likely will go back to GIA for a new report. Standards seem to have changed over time, in spite of lab insistance to the contrary, and current report grading is how diamonds are most often traded by dealers.

Good dealers and good appraisers don't need any paper to place a value on a diamond, but having a document takes the guesswork out of the process and prevents a buyer from guessing low on purpose.
From my perspective, this is actually not true.
Let's take a stone that I might grade E/VS1
What if GIA gives it a VVS2?
Or D color?
The difference between these grades are so slim, it's not always possible to grade such stones with certainty.
Plus, the difference in price between an E/VS1, and a D/VVS2 is a nice chunk of change in larger diamonds.
For this reason, and consumer trying to sell a stone without the GIA report is likely going to face a dealer who will assume that same stone is G/SI1- to be on the safe side.
Unfortunately, consumers in the US with diamonds graded by EGL, or HRD will face that same assumption.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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A diamond is ‘worth’ more with proper paperwork. Often quite a bit more. This is true both for consumers and dealers and, as a result, appraisers. It not only affects the cost to replace a stone, it affects the prices dealers charge when they sell them and it affects the prices they’ll pay when they buy them back. The ‘cert’ is not just a description of the item, it’s PART of the item. It’s one of the value characteristics. A GIA graded stone is worth more (in the US) than that same stone without the GIA grading, and in most cases this difference is more than the cost of the lab fees. The right lab report will make a stone sell faster, easier, and for more money. If that's not adding value I don't know what is. That’s why these places exist and why they have customers. That’s why they’re a billion dollar industry. That’s why there is near endless discussion at retail counters, wholesale offices, and forums like this about the importance of the grading lab and the importance of WHICH lab.
 
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