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How to know if these diamonds are actually antique?

CherryBlossom

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
311
My friends fiance was discussing this all day today, so I figured I would go ahead and ask all of you.

They want to buy a diamond but really have a problem contributing to the diamond trade due to environmental and political factors. They were going to purchase a diamond that was mined in Canada, until she read and showed me this: http://www.greenkarat.com/about/CanadianDiamonds.asp

They have decided that their only option is to either buy a lab created diamond... which will have to be a colored stone or try their best to purchase and estate/antique cut diamond.

They have a pretty healthy budget and I think they are leaning towards the estate/antique diamond. What's the best way to ensure that a stone it's actually an antique diamond. I know there's a whole discussion going on about Antique cushion's but what about rounds? Are there reputable vendors who specialize in estate pieces? is there a big markup? I think they are open to considering the old round cuts, but know nothing about them besides the fact that some have large culets, correct? are they pretty? what's the problem w/ them? thank you
 

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yennyfire

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
6,384
While there is no way to know 100% (unless it's a family piece), purchasing from a trusted vendor is the key to getting what you paid for. They would not compromise their reputation by deliberately misleading their clients. Jewels by EricaGrace has a great reputation, as does ERD...the other vendor I might check with is Old World Diamonds....antique stones is all they do....

Hope this helps...
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
54,993
I think you can tell. Antique stones may be less symmetrical in some cases, have nicks and chips, etc. Sometimes the history is known for the ring such as an estate piece. I'd connect them with JBEG or Singlestone and they can find them an antique stone.
 

Stone-cold11

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
14,069
These are all artifacts of productions and wear that may not be there (for real well made and maintained stones or touched up stones) or deliberately produce (on modern stones to pull a fake out).

The only sure way is if there is a history of evidence in a family owning it.
 

CherryBlossom

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
311
yennyfire|1296652715|2840483 said:
While there is no way to know 100% (unless it's a family piece), purchasing from a trusted vendor is the key to getting what you paid for. They would not compromise their reputation by deliberately misleading their clients. Jewels by EricaGrace has a great reputation, as does ERD...the other vendor I might check with is Old World Diamonds....antique stones is all they do....

Hope this helps...
It does help. And so do the other statements.

Anyone know of any other trusted vendors?

Also any idea on the price? is there are markup? or do any of you have any info on the older cuts? I know there's is an Old Mine cut and a transitional cut. How can we lean a bit more about these older cuts?
 

yennyfire

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
6,384
There is also an OEC (old European). I think that OWD has some info about the differences on their site. As for mark up, I'm not sure.
 

LGK

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
2,975
As far as I've seen only GOG is cutting brand new Old European Cuts (OECs). I'm sure there's a few others out there; but the thing is, typically an OEC sells at a discount compared to a round brilliant until you get to the 3 carat mark- then they're on par. So why bother? Definitely nobody's bothering to do so in mass quantity. If anyone else is cutting a few, they're probably like GOG- proud of their line of stones, and not trying to hide that it's a newly cut stone.


You can look for evidence of wear on an OEC too- bearding, some teeny chips... those are pretty typical with an OEC, and really do take time to accumulate. Also most OECs have bruted, very thin or extremely thin girdles.

OldWorldDiamonds.com is one source for antique cuts. Also the aforementioned JewelsbyEricaGrace.com. Or Singlestone.com.

Check any of those vendor's websites for descriptions of Old Mine Cuts, Old European Cuts, Antique Cushions and Transitionals if you need a quick overview.

Most of those vendors could confirm that a stone is antique. Personally if a stone is cut like an OEC, is priced like one, has a bruted girdle, and especially if it's a lower color- it's virtually certain it's an actual antique because it would likely not profit anybody to reproduce such a stone. A super high color OEC with a faceted girdle and amazing symmetry? That I would question- but again, honestly, I've never run across a repro OEC except for GOG's, which are improved perfected OEC-like-diamonds anyway that sell at a premium- not really an attempt to actually reproduce an OEC. For example they don't have open culets, they have amazing optical symmetry etc.

Good luck!

ETA: Some more info: higher colors are much harder to find in antique cuts- many were recut, and there was a large amount of lower color production at that time anyway. So if they're looking for much higher than H, it could be awhile. It's good to have a trusted vendor to work with to be your eyes, and JBEG, for instance, is atypical for an old cut vendor in that they use GIA certification routinely. Most do not, which is also frustrating but simply part of the antique stone market for several reasons- usually, an independant appraiser is a useful resource if you find a non-certified or EGL certed stone...

(The reason for the lack of GIA certification is: if an antique stone is set in it's original setting, you can't get a GIA cert done w/o potentially damaging the setting by removing the stone. Also, if an old cut ends up getting cut graded by GIA, even a well cut OEC isn't going to get a GIA Excellent or probably even VG, simply because of the proportions.)

You can absolutely find lovely old cuts. They were often cut to display fire over white light return- high crowns/small tables etc. With the chunky faceting it's a beautiful look IMO, very eye catching. Bear in mind not *all* old cuts are well cut though. You either need to look at enough yourself to get an idea of what to look for or use a vendor who is experienced with old stones to be your eyes for you. Basically you want edge-to-edge fire- no laziness or darkness especially in the middle. And you don't want them to be too deep, or you don't get the face up size you paid for. (Personally I prefer around 62% depth, or a bit less.)

Also bear in mind open culets don't look nearly as dramatic in person as they do in pics- I think sometimes people expect them to be this huge black hole in the center of a stone, since pics online kinda make them look like that. But they're very subtle looking in person really, more of a small fleck reflecting light back occasionally, even on a stone like my 3.5 ct OEC that has a large open culet, the open culet is pretty subtle looking in person.
 

CherryBlossom

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
311
LGK|1296682136|2841044 said:
As far as I've seen only GOG is cutting brand new Old European Cuts (OECs). I'm sure there's a few others out there; but the thing is, typically an OEC sells at a discount compared to a round brilliant until you get to the 3 carat mark- then they're on par. So why bother? Definitely nobody's bothering to do so in mass quantity. If anyone else is cutting a few, they're probably like GOG- proud of their line of stones, and not trying to hide that it's a newly cut stone.


You can look for evidence of wear on an OEC too- bearding, some teeny chips... those are pretty typical with an OEC, and really do take time to accumulate. Also most OECs have bruted, very thin or extremely thin girdles.

OldWorldDiamonds.com is one source for antique cuts. Also the aforementioned JewelsbyEricaGrace.com. Or Singlestone.com.

Check any of those vendor's websites for descriptions of Old Mine Cuts, Old European Cuts, Antique Cushions and Transitionals if you need a quick overview.

Most of those vendors could confirm that a stone is antique. Personally if a stone is cut like an OEC, is priced like one, has a bruted girdle, and especially if it's a lower color- it's virtually certain it's an actual antique because it would likely not profit anybody to reproduce such a stone. A super high color OEC with a faceted girdle and amazing symmetry? That I would question- but again, honestly, I've never run across a repro OEC except for GOG's, which are improved perfected OEC-like-diamonds anyway that sell at a premium- not really an attempt to actually reproduce an OEC. For example they don't have open culets, they have amazing optical symmetry etc.

Good luck!

ETA: Some more info: higher colors are much harder to find in antique cuts- many were recut, and there was a large amount of lower color production at that time anyway. So if they're looking for much higher than H, it could be awhile. It's good to have a trusted vendor to work with to be your eyes, and JBEG, for instance, is atypical for an old cut vendor in that they use GIA certification routinely. Most do not, which is also frustrating but simply part of the antique stone market for several reasons- usually, an independant appraiser is a useful resource if you find a non-certified or EGL certed stone...

(The reason for the lack of GIA certification is: if an antique stone is set in it's original setting, you can't get a GIA cert done w/o potentially damaging the setting by removing the stone. Also, if an old cut ends up getting cut graded by GIA, even a well cut OEC isn't going to get a GIA Excellent or probably even VG, simply because of the proportions.)

You can absolutely find lovely old cuts. They were often cut to display fire over white light return- high crowns/small tables etc. With the chunky faceting it's a beautiful look IMO, very eye catching. Bear in mind not *all* old cuts are well cut though. You either need to look at enough yourself to get an idea of what to look for or use a vendor who is experienced with old stones to be your eyes for you. Basically you want edge-to-edge fire- no laziness or darkness especially in the middle. And you don't want them to be too deep, or you don't get the face up size you paid for. (Personally I prefer around 62% depth, or a bit less.)

Also bear in mind open culets don't look nearly as dramatic in person as they do in pics- I think sometimes people expect them to be this huge black hole in the center of a stone, since pics online kinda make them look like that. But they're very subtle looking in person really, more of a small fleck reflecting light back occasionally, even on a stone like my 3.5 ct OEC that has a large open culet, the open culet is pretty subtle looking in person.
thank you! you are amazing
 
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