how much does certification cost?

[haagen_dazs]

how much does certification cost?


1) i wanted to know how much does it cost to send a diamond to AGS or GIA for certification? is it a one fix price or does it depend on the weight of the diamond?
2) i understand that AGS have DQD that will show aset images (actually what else is shown?) if it is requested for by the vendor. if the certified diamond has a certificate that does not have those images, does the diamond have to be re-certified in order to obtain more detail reports?
3) what is the industry norm with regards to requesting for "more/extra" certification ?
is it on the interested buyer to pay for these reports?


on a side note, due to the complexities of the online/ebusiness world, it seems that all diamonds sold online have a certification that goes with it (and rightfully so since that gives an extra protection to both parties in the transaction).
however there are also lots of non certified diamonds on the market.
do consumers who purchase these diamonds solely depend on what the seller says?
it seems like they would base the sale on trust and save on the certification costs...

 

[denverappraiser]

Here's the GIA fee schedule.
Don't forget shipping for people who don't live in NYC or Carlsbad CA.

AGSL doesn’t do business directly with the public so they don’t have a fee schedule I can link to but they’re similar in cost.

If you buy a round stone that’s been inspected by AGSL within the last several years and that comes with a report that doesn’t have the ASET image on it, they can upgrade the report to one that does for a modest fee and without a new inspection.

You’ll notice above that the fees aren’t really very high when compared to the cost of the product. You’re correct that if you trust the selling jeweler to do the grading in-house then you don’t need a lab but, in practice, the lab fees are usually a few percent or less of the transaction and what seems like tiny details in the grading can make a huge difference in the price so most people prefer to have this done by an unbiased service. $150 buys quite a bit of confidence for most folks in terms of lab fees.

You can ask for whatever additional reports/images you want but I think it’s entirely fair that the jeweler charges for this, especially if they are going to have costs involved in delivering them. You can also have work done yourself either by an independent appraiser or a lab.

By the way, it’s a bit of a misnomer to be calling these documents ‘certificates’ or that they result in a 'certification'in that they aren’t actually certifying anything. It still is a matter of trust between you and the seller that you’re getting what you expect in the deal. Lab documentation is a reinforcement of your trust in the dealer, not a replacement for it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[haagen_dazs]

hi Neil
Thanks for your answer...
I have a few more questions.


1) what does "first inscription" imply? They dont have a price table for subsequent inscriptions so perhaps GIA either do not allow second inscriptions or they it might be billed differently.

2) what does dossier diamond mean? is that a package deal for grading + inscription?

3) if GIA provides the option of sealing (sealing the information in a tamper resistant package) does that mean that fraduent grading certificates is a rampant problem?

4) correct me if i am wrong but GIA doesnt provide ASET images right?

5)under what circumstances does one send the diamond for those secondary follow up services?
if one would like to verify the report stating the details, one could get the document from the GIA website directly. if one wants to verify the diamond physical characteristics again, wouldnt it be similar to getting a new report?

to me, verification means checking it again to ensure the numbers are right (which essentially is starting over and grading the diamond as is again)


6) you mentioned that if the AGS report is newly produced, one could get the ASET image without a new inspection. that would mean that AGS does scan all diamonds passing through their lab for everything. its a matter of whether they would release the information for a fee.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 9/14/2009 4:03:20 PM
Author: haagen_dazs
1) what does ''first inscription'' imply? They dont have a price table for subsequent inscriptions so perhaps GIA either do not allow second inscriptions or they it might be billed differently.

The first two columns are prices for the ‘first inscription’, which varies slightly depending on what you are putting on, and the third column is for additional inscriptions. As far as I know, there is no limit beyond what will physically fit on the stone.

Date: 9/14/2009 4:03:20 PM
Author: haagen_dazs
2) what does dossier diamond mean? is that a package deal for grading + inscription?

That’s a package deal for a grading + inscription services that includes an abbreviated format report. In particular, it doesn’t include the plotting diagram.

Date: 9/14/2009 4:03:20 PM
Author: haagen_dazs
3) if GIA provides the option of sealing (sealing the information in a tamper resistant package) does that mean that fraduent grading certificates is a rampant problem?

A lot of people worry about this, especially overseas, but no, I would not say it’s a rampant problem. Other labs have been marketing this for years and GIA has recently jumped on the bandwagon for competitive reasons.

Date: 9/14/2009 4:03:20 PM
Author: haagen_dazs
4) correct me if i am wrong but GIA doesnt provide ASET images right?

Correct.

Date: 9/14/2009 4:03:20 PM
Author: haagen_dazs
5)under what circumstances does one send the diamond for those secondary follow up services?
if one would like to verify the report stating the details, one could get the document from the GIA website directly. if one wants to verify the diamond physical characteristics again, wouldnt it be similar to getting a new report?
to me, verification means checking it again to ensure the numbers are right (which essentially is starting over and grading the diamond as is again)

People send stones back for new inspections because they hope for different results, because they want additional services like inscriptions done, because they want a newer inspection date, because they’ve altered the stone or because they are worried that there might be damage and they want GIA to inspect.

‘Verify’ in GIA parlance means to confirm that the stone in question is the same as the stone described on the report.

Date: 9/14/2009 4:03:20 PM
Author: haagen_dazs
6) you mentioned that if the AGS report is newly produced, one could get the ASET image without a new inspection. that would mean that AGS does scan all diamonds passing through their lab for everything. its a matter of whether they would release the information for a fee

AGSL has changed their services as well as the formatting and options on their reports several times in the last decade. They scan everything using the technology in place at the time but the stones done a while ago don’t have all the data needed to produce all of the current reports. The ASET image that appears on their ‘platinum’ report isn’t a photograph, it’s a computer generated image using data collected during the inspection. They have this in the record for all stones that they’ve recently graded but won’t release it without a fee.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[haagen_dazs]

Hi Neil

1) The dossier package doesnt seem complete without the plotting diagram. I think the plotting diagram is really important!

2) If GIA is mailing the stone + grading document back to the sender, the only way a fraud could possibly take place is at the GIA lab itself (which obviously doesnt make sense). This is also assuming that the package is not hijacked en route.
That sealing cost seems like another way for a company to prey on people''s emotions and make money.
=(

3) With regards to the verification, GIA would still have to re-inspect the whole diamond to determine if there was any change to the original diamond as described in the original document.

So if there was indeed a difference, i assume GIA would just reply to the sender that there the diamond in question is different from the report. They will not give details on the new physical characteristic. Am I right to assume that? (since new inspection fees > follow up service fees)

 

[stone-cold11]

1) That is why it is a dossier and not the full report. Normally, a stone is identified by it''s inclusions, so without the inclusion plot, the report number is inscribe to identify the stone.
2) is an option, you can opt out.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 9/14/2009 6:34:38 PM
Author: haagen_dazs
Hi Neil


1) The dossier package doesnt seem complete without the plotting diagram. I think the plotting diagram is really important!


2) If GIA is mailing the stone + grading document back to the sender, the only way a fraud could possibly take place is at the GIA lab itself (which obviously doesnt make sense). This is also assuming that the package is not hijacked en route.

That sealing cost seems like another way for a company to prey on people's emotions and make money.

=(


3) With regards to the verification, GIA would still have to re-inspect the whole diamond to determine if there was any change to the original diamond as described in the original document.


So if there was indeed a difference, i assume GIA would just reply to the sender that there the diamond in question is different from the report. They will not give details on the new physical characteristic. Am I right to assume that? (since new inspection fees > follow up service fees)

It sounds like the dossier doesn’t suit your purpose. No problem, order a full report plus a girdle inscription.

The sealed packets are a new and not especially popular service, at least in the US. The idea is that a merchant can sell stones with GIA grading and they buyer can accept delivery in a sealed packet as some sort of evidence that the merchant hasn’t tampered with it. It’s similar to the reason manufacturers put seals on food products. It strikes me as a silly idea but as with the above, it’s optional. I recommend opting out.

Yes, a verification requires an inspection. It doesn’t include a report. Your appraiser should offer this for free as part of their appraisal so I wouldn’t recommend buying this service from GIA as well unless this is a legal matter and you're trying to line up your expert witnesses. Then get both.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 9/14/2009 1:06:42 PM
Author:haagen_dazs
how much does certification cost?


1) i wanted to know how much does it cost to send a diamond to AGS or GIA for certification? is it a one fix price or does it depend on the weight of the diamond?
2) i understand that AGS have DQD that will show aset images (actually what else is shown?) if it is requested for by the vendor. if the certified diamond has a certificate that does not have those images, does the diamond have to be re-certified in order to obtain more detail reports?
3) what is the industry norm with regards to requesting for 'more/extra' certification ?
is it on the interested buyer to pay for these reports?


on a side note, due to the complexities of the online/ebusiness world, it seems that all diamonds sold online have a certification that goes with it (and rightfully so since that gives an extra protection to both parties in the transaction).
however there are also lots of non certified diamonds on the market.
do consumers who purchase these diamonds solely depend on what the seller says?
it seems like they would base the sale on trust and save on the certification costs...

HI Haagen_dazs
Great handle ( and tasty, yum!) and avitar!
As usual, Neil has given a great set of answers.
I can speak to other aspects.
As far as the part highlighted in yellow- rare.
Generally a GIA Diamond Grading Report is sufficient.

I can understand why you'd question the lack of a plot on a GIA Diamond Dossier.
In fact, it's possible to identify the diamond with measurements and other aspects in many cases. For a trained eye the plot can also be used, it does not really provide buyers a picture of what the diamond will look like naked eye. This, with the laser inscription are sufficient for many buyers- it's a fairly popular product for GIA.

Sealing a diamond seems to make little sense- at some point, you need to open and inspect the thing.
If someone was seriously interested, the intelligent way to buy would be to look at the diamond thoroughly- forcing someone to "break the seal".
I have seen stores in Europe offering diamonds that have been "sealed" in the US, rarely.

You also asked about stones being sold with no lab report.
This still goes on.
In some cases, it's far less of a concern.
If, for example, a one carat diamond is selling for $2000 from a reputable seller- who identifies it as an L/SI2, it does not necessarily raise a red flag. Still, today many buyers in the lower price ranges are demanding GIA reports. Consequently you see more stones in the lower grades with GIA reports nowadays, as compared to ten years ago.
If they are calling a 1.00 for $2000 a D/VS1, there's a big red flag.
if they are offering a $4500 one carat diamond with no GIA report, as a trader myself, I'd advise passing. It might even be accurately graded- but if I was spending that much on a one carat, I want a GIA, or AGSL report

 

[haagen_dazs]

I can understand why you''d question the lack of a plot on a GIA Diamond Dossier.

In fact, it''s possible to identify the diamond with measurements and other aspects in many cases. For a trained eye the plot can also be used, it does not really provide buyers a picture of what the diamond will look like naked eye. This, with the laser inscription are sufficient for many buyers- it''s a fairly popular product for GIA.

Date: 9/14/2009 6:39:43 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
1) That is why it is a dossier and not the full report. Normally, a stone is identified by it''s inclusions, so without the inclusion plot, the report number is inscribe to identify the stone.

2) is an option, you can opt out.

hi David

Thanks for the compliments on my name.
Its a long time handle that I have used elsewhere (primarily photograpy based forums)

1)
This is an interesting point that you made about the laser inscription being sufficient for many buyers.
I would have thought otherwise.


I actually think that the plotting is more "useful" to the man on the street for these reasons
Number like angles dont mean a thing to the layman. What is 42 or 40 degrees? I am not sure if it provides a picture to the buyer. Additionally, the consumer will not have those advance machines to verify the dimensions

However a plot is can be verified by a loupe (which most merchants have) and one''s eyeballs.
Even if the inclusions are small, at least they are there to be seen.
The inclusions form a signature in the diamond and people can verify the diamond is what the dossier reports.

Inscriptions can be tampered with too isnt it? (polish away etc)


Those are just my thoughts and it beats me why the public are comfortable with numbers not not a diagram.
eh....

2)
In my opinion, it seems like sealing is useful only if the diamond goes through a gazillion number of hands before it reaches you. I guess its just another service offered.

3)
The reason why I asked about stones w/o a report is that my dad (in his 60s) keeps telling me that its much cheaper to buy loose stones and that they are just as good as long as you trust the shop keeper (you know, old school thinking ... parents have good jeweller friends etc etc). He said that stones with grading reports are priced at a premium and are expensive.

However thanks to Neil, i now know that its about 1% of the diamond price. Thats actually dirt cheap for the peace of mind it brings.

 

[Rockdiamond]

You''re welcome hd!
My point about plots is there are cases where the plots fairly easy to correspond to the imperfections in the stone. Maybe a black carbon spot.
Other times, less so. Remember a plot is 2d, the diamond 3d.
If there are clouds and some other types of imperfections, there are cases where the plot itself is not all that easy to match up with the stone.

The measuring of a stone may be done with a millimeter gauge, and scale- no need to necessarily calculate angles.

I''m by no means suggesting you skip getting the full report if that''s what you desire. Just that using the plot to verify a diamond matches the GIA report may take a little bit of experience.

I honestly believe that consumers are well served by shopping the dealer carefully for these reasons.
If a consumer has doubts about the seller being able to reliably offer the diamond referred to on the GIA report, I''d say that''s a great reason to keep shopping for a dealer who will give you that comfort level.