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How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone?

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ssimon86

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
27
Hey Everyone,
Thanks so much for all the information on this site. I'm getting closer to locking down my budget, but had a few questions before I finalize. My girlfriend loves the Tiffany Lucida cut, so I am looking at Radiant cuts as an alternative.

My question is, how "low" in color/clarity can I go (without anyone being able to tell with the naked eye), in order to achieve the largest stone? My brother purchased the a 1.9ct stone for his wife with amazing clarity and color, but he now says he wishes he sacrificed some quality to get a larger stone. From what I've read, Radiant cuts hide inclusions better than many cuts, and many prefer a "warmer" color for Radiants as well. When I am looking online (or at a local retailer), when should I discard a diamond (e.g. lower than H color and VS2 clarity)? I think my budget is around 18-20 for the stone, but would consider spending a little more if need be. Thanks so much in advance for your advice!
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

I'm not sure about clarity but I thought fancies show color more , hence not going below H color. GOG used to carry a Lucere cut, rather similar to Lucida. I don't see it anymore but you can ask David about it.
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

ssimon86|1400261660|3674265 said:
Hey Everyone,
Thanks so much for all the information on this site. I'm getting closer to locking down my budget, but had a few questions before I finalize. My girlfriend loves the Tiffany Lucida cut, so I am looking at Radiant cuts as an alternative.

My question is, how "low" in color/clarity can I go (without anyone being able to tell with the naked eye), in order to achieve the largest stone? My brother purchased the a 1.9ct stone for his wife with amazing clarity and color, but he now says he wishes he sacrificed some quality to get a larger stone. From what I've read, Radiant cuts hide inclusions better than many cuts, and many prefer a "warmer" color for Radiants as well. When I am looking online (or at a local retailer), when should I discard a diamond (e.g. lower than H color and VS2 clarity)? I think my budget is around 18-20 for the stone, but would consider spending a little more if need be. Thanks so much in advance for your advice!
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Hello Simon!

It's really on a case by case basis, especially with radiants. It can be tricky to find one with the faceting and optics that you want, many radiants have that ' crushed ice' look which some aren't fond of, these folks sometimes prefer radiants with a little more regularity such as a ' chunkier' look resulting from the faceting of the stone. Radiants can also show more warmth than other shapes, this is the reason so many fancy colours end up cut in this shape.

I assume you are looking at GIA graded radiants? I assume you are, so in the size you are considering, I would perhaps make H colour or better your goal, unless you find a radiant a colour grade lower down the scale you like. Clarity, you could certainly consider SI1 or even SI2 if you can view the stone yourself or at least have a trusted vendor inspect it for you to make sure it is eyeclean to your specifications. You have a very nice budget and I am sure you will find a beautiful diamond. Be a bit flexible on your specs as I suggested above to try to avoid making this too difficult for yourself, you might hit a home run straight away with your desired specs, you never know, but hopefully this will give you a range to work from if you are agreeable.

Have you done much research on this shape and looked at how different these shapes can appear with the faceting structure, optical performance and length to width ratio etc? If not, that would be time very well spent, there is a lot of info here and some of the vendors with in house stones have comparison videos and lots of good educational material. Jon at www.goodoldgold.com has had some brilliant videos on radiants in the past.

I hope this helps give you a few ideas, please ask if you need any more assistance.
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Just wanted to throw this one out there, although I know it's not exactly what you had mentioned, as it is a great color/clarity combination and an AMAZING cut:

1.2ct, F, VS1 - Octavia
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11178/
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

thecat|1400262524|3674274 said:
I'm not sure about clarity but I thought fancies show color more , hence not going below H color.

Thecat brings up a useful point and is quite right, fancies can in some cases show colour more and radiants particularly so. Reliably graded H colour grade or higher is a good initial place to work from depending on the size of the radiant and its cut quality.
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Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Thanks so much everyone! So in short, it sounds like H or above is the way to go in terms of color, and clarity doesn't matter as long as it is definitely eye clean. Does that sound like a good start? The 3ct diamond that was just posted above looks beautiful, but I see that the color is J. In this case, is it worth sacrificing color for a larger stone, or is it worth sticking in the 2ct size with better color?

I have noticed the different facets in the radiant cut. Someone on another thread recommended the following diamond that doesn't have the "crushed ice" look, but it might be a little too pricey for me (http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/radiant-cut/2.01-carat-g-color-if-clarity-sku-23434). I love the facets on this one, but is it worth the extra $$ for the IF clarity? I also noticed that the cut is rated "good"... should I be looking for a better cut or does "good" suffice? If this is a great stone for the money, I'd consider it, but it would be nice to get a stone or two as a base-point so I know what features to look out for.


Thanks so much again!!
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

I think you should bring your gf into the loop, have a few shipped to your house or an appraiser, and ask her to pick the one that speaks to her.

Lucidas... have a step cut crown, like emeralds, and have a chunky style (modified) brilliant pavilion.

This has a Lucida-style bottom but it is lacking the step cut crown: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/radiant-cut/2.20-carat-h-color-si1-clarity-sku-243420

Step cut, square emerald, or "asscher" http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/asscher-cut/1.74-carat-f-color-vs1-clarity-sku-252777
I really love this one but it is not maximizing size.
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

By all means consider a J or "lower"color stone. I put the word lower in quotes because there's no such thing as a bad color. Color is a matter of personal preference, and if your girlfriend likes a warmer stone, you can go much larger because of the perception that warm stones are somehow inferior to cooler color stones. I think stones in the K-Z range can be a terrific bargain, as long as you get an eye-clean stone with an excellent quality of cut. Never skimp on the cut! I have a J SI2 (eye-clean) stone with very strong blue florescence, and because it is an ideal cut, the stone is gorgeous, and it was reasonably priced.
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Thanks all! So in the case of the stone that I posted from James Allen, is the "good" cut quality too low? Which color grade will start being clearly noticeable to the naked (untrained) eye. Based on my budget/preferences, do you think it is worth staying in the 2ct range and getting better color/cut/etc or moving up to the 2.5/3 range and sacrificing those features? Thanks again!

-Steve
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Also forgot to mention that she is interested in a slightly rectangular diamond :-).
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

patricias|1400265365|3674312 said:
By all means consider a J or "lower"color stone. I put the word lower in quotes because there's no such thing as a bad color. Color is a matter of personal preference, and if your girlfriend likes a warmer stone, you can go much larger because of the perception that warm stones are somehow inferior to cooler color stones. I think stones in the K-Z range can be a terrific bargain, as long as you get an eye-clean stone with an excellent quality of cut. Never skimp on the cut! I have a J SI2 (eye-clean) stone with very strong blue florescence, and because it is an ideal cut, the stone is gorgeous, and it was reasonably priced.
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You don't need to put the lower in quotes, because colors below J are lower on the color scale. This is not a measure of beauty, but an objective measure of color.

Be certain that the recipient is comfortable with the color you choose. That is the most important thing.

Many people are not comfortable with J color in round stones, let alone in fancy cuts. Others are comfortable with this color, and actually prefer it. It varies widely and some people have VERY strong opinions about it (would not even consider a stone below I-color).

Like many have said here, G and H are your 'safer' colors, if you don't know how color-sensitive the recipient happens to be.

Best of luck!
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Personally I am not loving the G IF because I think there is a fair amount of leakage under the table.
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

RockyRacoon|1400266253|3674322 said:
patricias|1400265365|3674312 said:
By all means consider a J or "lower"color stone. I put the word lower in quotes because there's no such thing as a bad color. Color is a matter of personal preference, and if your girlfriend likes a warmer stone, you can go much larger because of the perception that warm stones are somehow inferior to cooler color stones. I think stones in the K-Z range can be a terrific bargain, as long as you get an eye-clean stone with an excellent quality of cut. Never skimp on the cut! I have a J SI2 (eye-clean) stone with very strong blue florescence, and because it is an ideal cut, the stone is gorgeous, and it was reasonably priced.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

''You don't need to put the lower in quotes, because colors below J are lower on the color scale. This is not a measure of beauty, but an objective measure of color.''

Just to clarify as I was the one that used the term lower to allude to colour grades further down the scale, as Rocky mentions, if I refer to a colour grade being lower, it is in no way meant as a derogatory term. I use the term lower as a neutral way to avoid implying that any diamond colour is inferior, because that is not what I mean. Lower is an adjective to refer to colour grade alphabetical indicators that appear below the letter H in this instance. As many PSers might be aware, I have been an advocate of the warmer tones for many years now and I am always pleased when I see them get some love.

Also just to reiterate, with radiant cuts they can in fact hold more warmth than some other shapes, as previously mentioned, this is why so many fancy colours end up as radiants, remember JLo's gorgeous pink radiant as an example. If the person the ring is intended for wants a warm colour radiant then great as they do lend themselves to tint beautifully, otherwise if a white looking diamond is the goal, bearing the radiant cut's propensity for holding warmth in mind is advisable.
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

No worries- sounds great! So would cut be the most important aspect to look for?
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

JulieN|1400265315|3674310 said:
Can you ask GOG for pictures of this? It is 21K, almost 7.75mm which is remarkable. http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/CW4C99H3-87A/
Click to expand...

This one could be well worth further investigation, contact Jon and ask if interested.
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Looks great but I think the lady like the more rectangular look :-)
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

ssimon86|1400268998|3674349 said:
No worries- sounds great! So would cut be the most important aspect to look for?
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You can't quantify the cut quality of a radiant by number configurations as easily as you can with a round diamond, radiants are just so variable, plus as mentioned, there are many things to consider such as the potential for holding warmth, shape, length to width ratio and so forth. But yes, cut is certainly crucial so you don't end up with a dull, lacklustre stone. What constitutes a good cut in a fancy shape to one person might not to another. Images are your friend here, particularly ASET plus the assistance of a trusted vendor and your own ideas of beauty. Check out as many radiants as you can in person and take your time, I always think especially with fancy shapes, the more you research, the clearer it becomes as to what sort of stone will please you most. When you first start looking, they can all look good, it might take a little time to train your palate ( to quote Dreamer!) as to what you like best. Then, it's a case of finding it!
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

ssimon86|1400269311|3674352 said:
Looks great but I think the lady like the more rectangular look :-)
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No problem, Diamond Search Wizard Jules might come up with something else if she has the time!
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Unfortunately it is hard to find well cut rectangular radiants, square is easier... how does she feel about cushions or emeralds...?
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Thanks for the replies all. Julie, all I know is that she loved the lucida cut so I was trying to go for something as similar as possible :-).
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Hey Everyone,
Just went to a local retail shop (with great reviews on Yelp) and spent some time talking to the owner. He was pretty surprised about the knowledge I already had, so thanks greatly to you all. He also said that he thinks the I/J range is good for color and a clarity as low as SI2 (as long as the inclusions aren't visible to the naked eye) in order to get a larger size. It looks like I have somewhat nailed down 2 of the 4 c's... now it comes down to cut and size :-). I see that some of you mentioned that cut greatly varies for Radiant stones, so what should I look out for? Are there facet shape, particular numbers (such as table) that are worth narrowing down to find my ideal stone? Based on what I know now, it sounds like it might be easier to narrow down different radiant stones in person, but I'm not exactly sure how to do this if I end up going the online route.

Based on my budget above, how large of a stone do you guys think I can get with a I/J color, clarity that is perfect to the naked eye, and a cut that makes the stone look great. I know it will vary stone by stone, but having a size range in mind will be super helpful.

Thanks so much again for all the help... already love this community and am having a great time learning. Have a good one!
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Going for the best cut is #1. I still think H color is going to be safer, but I color would be the absolute lowest I would go. I also think you should consider that your brother got his wife a high color stone, and if your fiancee holds up a J color diamond next to hers, it is going to look much lower in color. I also would try for VS-SI1 clarity. I highly recommend Good Old Gold for fancy cuts as they get cut quality and can find some well cut stones in many shapes.

This is a pretty nice one to compare to the one that doesn't have pictures yet:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11934/ ($18,058)

Online is going to be your best bet, because a jeweler in NY can access any diamonds in the city and anywhere else. Very few local jewelers are going to give you the information that GOG will. They will also make a video for you to compare stones.
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Here are my thoughts on color:

Gypsy|1398112834|3657311 said:
Well you can definitely go down to G.

As for H, yes, I think that's certainly safe. Your .5 carat diamond is going to be largely covered up on the sides by the prongs. H is very conservative still.

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H.

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If you are talking fancy shapes without ideal light return (because there is no 'ideal' for EC's Radiant, etc) it's a bit different, H and above is still conservative. But I personally can see tint in Radiants at H, so I would say G and above is conservative with Radiants.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them side by side. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white, you only see the contrast because of the proximity. But it's very slight, you could set an F center with G sides and never tell the difference. And even H sides depending on the setting and the size of the sidestones... especially with round brilliants.


I want you notice all the qualifiers thought. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.
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Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

Hi everyone. Thanks so much again, and agreed that it is probably time to get help from a vendor :-). I'm shocked at how much information Good Old Gold provides. Their website looks a bit dated, so I somewhat discarded them, but looks like they know what they are talking about.

Alright, so the updated specs that I am looking for are H/I color (preferably H) and a SI1 clarity at the lowest. Do you all agree? May I ask, how much does the cut quality impact price? Does it affect the price as much as color/clarity? If I go with one vendor for help (such as GoodOldGold), does it put me at a disadvantage in terms of what I can get within my budget/negotiating?

Do you guys think I can get up to 2.5+ct within my budget with those specs and a great cut? I totally understand what you mean in terms of comparing color with my sister in law, however, I'm wondering if friends/average people will be impressed seeing a larger diamond on her finger and not even notice the quality. I guess that's the balance I ultimately have to find.

JulieN- thanks for sending those three stones. I like the G cut from James Allen as well, however, wouldn't I be paying a significant amount of extra money for the IF clarity?

Thanks again all!!
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

I honestly believe GOG is the best vendor for fancy cuts. I have bought rounds from them, but I did buy a small asscher from them a year or so ago to go in a setting I had. They called in well cut stones for me, did the ASET/idealscope images, and did a video showing the stones in different lighting. It was easy to choose the best stone this way. It is not a disadvantage to use one vendor if they offer all these services. Here's my video if you'd like to see what they can offer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7SBfNGxTFE&list=UUEV7slr-i-VduBBnfv9MxhA&index=2

And yes, I think G-H, VS2-SI1 is a great range to aim for, but be open to an outstanding stone if it is slightly out of that box.
 
Re: How much color/clarity can I sacrifice for largest stone

I think GOG, Diamonds By Lauren, or Engagement Rings direct are the vendors you might consider contacting. Pick one, too many vendors reaching out for the same product just causes confusion.

It really depends what your goals are. There are plenty of 2.5 ct radiants out there that fit your specs that are bright and sparkly. How many of them are exceptionally cut? For me, I'm willing to wait for an exceptionally well cut radiant.

The problem is, it doesn't really seem like your goals are clearly defined at this point... You seem to want size, your gf just says "Lucida" but hasn't let you know exactly what it is about the Lucida that she likes. Some characteristics of Lucidas, generally speaking are a tall step-cut crown, good brilliance at the crown facets, some leakage/diminished return under the table is ok but not crushed ice.

If you also like the G IF, then that one, the H VVS2 and the G VS1 make 3. you can ask James Allen for ASETs and evaluations for up to three stones. Sure, you'd be paying for more clarity than you need or want, but with fancies you don't always get to choose what color and clarity comes with better cut stones.
 
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