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How does one know, just based on a few photos....

dk168

Ideal_Rock
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... whether a diamond is earth-mined or a lab/MMD or simulants?

I would like to believe the majority of PSers are decent and honest.

However, we know we have had newbie rogues who joined and posted pieces that did not belong to them.

So, my question is this: how does one know whether a piece posted in SMTB/Jewellery Pieces/etc. contains genuinely earth-mined diamond(s)?

For example, how would anyone know whether my 1.96ct MRB in my bangle is an earth-mined diamond? How could one tell if the stones in my 5cttw tennis bracelet are earth-mined and not labs/MMDs/simulants?

I guess what I am really asking is: how much can we trust each other within the PS community to tell the truth about their jewellery pieces?

DK :))
 

m-cubed

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Well, I think that's the point behind getting a lab cert. If it's something small, do you care? If it's a big purchase, it's probably worth asking for / getting a cert.
 

Polabowla

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@dk168 I think you have very good points & I have wondered that myself recently (with the latest iteration of fakers)

I guess we can't truly ever know for sure, but very often the fakers set off alarm bells (at least to me).
Not always off course.
Probably easier to trust someone the longer they are here.
 

dk168

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Well, I think that's the point behind getting a lab cert. If it's something small, do you care? If it's a big purchase, it's probably worth asking for / getting a cert.
How often do we ask the poster to "show us your certificate" when he/she posts a few pics of his/her piece in the likes of SMTB/JP/etc..?

I personally have not come across such a request, as it just seems rude!

Do I care? Probably not, except for the potential issue of fraudsters infiltrating as genuine jewellery lovers, getting hold of time, date and location of GTGs, to pass these information to other people, etc. etc...

DK :))
 

MeowMeow

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I don't know that you really can. It's up to them to tell the truth about the items. Getting a certification is a good idea if you can. I usually try to get something when we get pieces from my jeweller stating what they are made of and costs and such for insurance. But I can't say I would post them just to prove to people online about my items.

If you (general you! Not you personally <3 ) decide not to believe me about the details then that is cool. No big. I've always chosen to be honest about what my lab created stuff is because THAT is how you build acceptance for lab created pieces in my eyes. Not posting other peoples stuff and calling it mine OR posting lab created and calling it mined. Doing either of those things just creates more animosity when people figure out what was done. So no thank you.

Although on a more funny note, I remember a thread on a place that I'm pretty sure was not here. There was an argument about whether an OP's stuff was natural (meaning mined) and so she posted pictures of other items she owned and her implants certification to show she could afford the peice in question. It was kind of funny but kind of appalling at the same time that she felt like she needed to and that she thought it was a good idea. I don't remember if she posted the certification to the diamond or not too. I kinda wish I did remember lol.
 

nala

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Good question. And I suspect that is why admin likes to keep distinct forums. Maybe by providing a different forum, posters will be less tempted to deceive others and create their own community.
 

Polabowla

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I don't know that you really can. It's up to them to tell the truth about the items. Getting a certification is a good idea if you can. I usually try to get something when we get pieces from my jeweller stating what they are made of and costs and such for insurance. But I can't say I would post them just to prove to people online about my items.

If you (general you! Not you personally <3 ) decide not to believe me about the details then that is cool. No big. I've always chosen to be honest about what my lab created stuff is because THAT is how you build acceptance for lab created pieces in my eyes. Not posting other peoples stuff and calling it mine OR posting lab created and calling it mined. Doing either of those things just creates more animosity when people figure out what was done. So no thank you.

Although on a more funny note, I remember a thread on a place that I'm pretty sure was not here. There was an argument about whether an OP's stuff was natural (meaning mined) and so she posted pictures of other items she owned and her implants certification to show she could afford the peice in question. It was kind of funny but kind of appalling at the same time that she felt like she needed to and that she thought it was a good idea. I don't remember if she posted the certification to the diamond or not too. I kinda wish I did remember lol.
Her implants?! Lol

Would certificates though really prove someone actually owns said piece? I don't know, but I'm guessing those images can be stolen or faked too?

Also not everything even has certificates. Of course I have the ones from Graff & H W, but my older pieces from local stores (like the other rings I posted) never had any sort of paperwork (other than long lost receipts).
So how can anyone really "prove" it's theirs?
 

dk168

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I agree that when purchasing from a PSer via LT, one should request for the certificate and/or as much information as possible to ascertain the item is genuine as stated in the listing.

DK :))
 

dk168

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Good question. And I suspect that is why admin likes to keep distinct forums.
All is well to have 2 separate forums, however, how does one know a piece is genuinely earth-mined and not a lab/MMD based on photos alone and the hearsay of the poster?

I definitely can't, and am relying on PSers to be honest and truthful.

DK :))
 

AprilBaby

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I think we have to trust people to be honest.. If you suspect it’s not mined you may well be right. I only posted my MMD on that forum and I am honest enough not to try the regular. The person posting knows so it’s really living with your own honesty.
 

lissyflo

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To explicitly answer your question, I’m sure you can’t prove mined vs lab diamond on a photo given that they’re chemically identical. It leaves us on trust in SMTB etc, I guess? (Or are lab stones allowed there anyway given that they’re technically diamond?)

The fake SMTB threads don’t greatly worry me in themselves; I’m happy to oooh and aah with the best of them over pretty pieces, whether they are owned by a member or not. I’d prefer someone start a thread based on honesty (and to add useful feedback about vendor experiences etc), but there’s ultimately no palatable way to ask people to prove ownership on a public forum. In all honesty, I’ve found a couple of recent threads quite uncomfortable viewing - if it’s hard to ascertain a poster’s reasons for claiming ownership but they seem questionable, I’d try to err on the side of polite compliment or not engaging over mocking them, unless it’s obviously apparent that they’re scamming. I do see that long-term, insidious threads like that could build to make something like a fraudulent sale much easier though.

I completely agree about the risk re: GTGs etc. I think that’s especially true of us non-US based members: there seem to be US GTGs organised by vendors so attendees can remain personally anonymous fairly easily, but that’s not true for the overseas ones and I think that definitely increases risk. Maybe some kind of minimum membership period and posting quantity to attend those? I’d certainly fail any kind of technical knowledge ‘test’ to participate, but like to think that a few years of enthusiastic participation would qualify me to attend in the absence of any actual knowledge!

For buying pre-loved, I think the option to send an expensive item via an appraiser is the best method to avoid scams.
 

dk168

Ideal_Rock
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All I could say is that, I am glad my mum will not find my posts in PS as she is not computer literate except for checking stock and share prices!

Otherwise, I would be in deep trouble for what I have done to the pieces she gave me, and for what I had spent on my bling habit!

DK :lol-2:
 

OoohShiny

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Is the concern that MMDs are 'fake' and shouldn't therefore be in the SMTB section, which is deemed to be for 'real' (mined) diamonds?

As mentioned above, as they are identical without expensive lab equipment, arguably they could both qualify as being suitable for the SMTB section ;-) and perhaps that is the end scenario we will get to, but I appreciate that forum sponsors may well not wish for the mixing of the two in the SMTB section.
 

dk168

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@OoohShiny unfortunately, when two stones are identical in terms of 4Cs, the lab/MMD will cost significantly less than the earth-mined stone especially in larger sizes.

Status speaks volume, hence there is such a big market for fakes in luxury goods, IMHO.

DK :))
 

nala

Ideal_Rock
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Is the concern that MMDs are 'fake' and shouldn't therefore be in the SMTB section, which is deemed to be for 'real' (mined) diamonds?

As mentioned above, as they are identical without expensive lab equipment, arguably they could both qualify as being suitable for the SMTB section ;-) and perhaps that is the end scenario we will get to, but I appreciate that forum sponsors may well not wish for the mixing of the two in the SMTB section.
I also have to wonder about the vendors. How many vendors who advertise on this site want to see their mined diamond sales plummet in favor of lab diamond sales? Do all vendors even carry lab diamonds? What was the original understanding when they signed up?
 

acaw2015

Brilliant_Rock
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I wouldnt mind at all if mmd were posted in smtb. I honestly dont care if the diamond is mined or lab.
Personally, I enjoy a well cut diamond in a beautifully made setting. If a poster wants to inform me of the origin (mine or lab), that is up to the poster imho.
I agree that this may be more important for marketers/sellers. Not for me.
I do however enjoy reading stories about the origin/cut of a preloved/antique diamond...
:wavey:
 

Daisys and Diamonds

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Some really intetesting points brought up
I guess i would be concerned if i was buying something from someone i didn't know
as far as lab grown vs earth mined - arnt they technicality the same chemical make up so i don't comsider a MM diamond a fake by any means but they do cost less money so if someone is buying or selling its import to know
and as far as me just being here enjoying the bling im interested in lan grown dismonds so i appreate honesty - i don't think more or less of a poster or their diamond if its earth mined or lab grown and for that matter i enjoy the subforums for man made gems and also custume fashion jewlery

i just don't see the point pretending to own something i, or anyone else do not actually own
i have older inherited small by PS standards diamonds and stuff ive brought at the mall
if you meet me in real life im pretty much exactly the same as i am here,
what's the point in pretending,
lying takes too much effort

I think lying and fictiouse boasting is a common thing on online communities but it doesn't take long to see through the faux

Of course its ugly when money is involved and purposely deceiving people for profit - thats why its illegal when a bricks and mortar shop does it
 

molecule

Shiny_Rock
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Apr 2, 2018
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261
I wouldn't mind if SMTB was considered ShowMeTheBling-regardless of origin. I don't see why we'd be concerned if it's the poster's, real, fake, glass, lab-made or CZ. Maybe this goes back to the hangout thread on "why do you buy/wear jewelry?". What do I care if the poster's jewelry is "fake" other than be concerned that they were fooled into thinking it's a diamond/mined?

SMTB should be where we ooo and ahhh, not where we dissect and criticize on cut/color/origin.
 

jaysonsmom

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@dk168, I'm a little unclear on the point you're trying to make in your original post? I enjoy looking at all types of bling in SMTB sub-forum. I have admired pearls, gemstones, all types of jewelry that don't even contain any stones (natural or lab origin).

Are you asking asking for more disclosure by people sharing their bling pics? Or asking people to stay in the appropriate sub-forum and leave SMTB for natural mined diamonds only?
 

Bron357

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I think most people are honest and it depends on the price point whether or not needing a lab certificate should be required.
I think it unlikely that most people would knowingly misrepresent the gemstones in a piece of jewellery. I’ve bought jewellery preloved from Loupe Troop, from Auction, from reputable Antique shops and bought at “face value” ie no supporting lab report. If I were to resell them I’d sell them as what I believe they are.
Sometimes people were mislead or deceived previously and they only find out when they go to sell or insure it. Like my great grandmothers ruby ring. What a sh** fight that was after her death. Everyone was convinced it was worth a small fortune but it turned out all the rubies were just red glass. Whether or not the ring had its genuine rubies replaced somewhere along the way, that was never established.
 

m-cubed

Rough_Rock
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How often do we ask the poster to "show us your certificate" when he/she posts a few pics of his/her piece in the likes of SMTB/JP/etc..?

I personally have not come across such a request, as it just seems rude!

Do I care? Probably not, except for the potential issue of fraudsters infiltrating as genuine jewellery lovers, getting hold of time, date and location of GTGs, to pass these information to other people, etc. etc...

DK :))
I was really only referring to purchases. If it’s just pretties we’re looking at in the forum, do you really care? I don’t.
 

MeowMeow

Brilliant_Rock
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Her implants?! Lol

Would certificates though really prove someone actually owns said piece? I don't know, but I'm guessing those images can be stolen or faked too?

Also not everything even has certificates. Of course I have the ones from Graff & H W, but my older pieces from local stores (like the other rings I posted) never had any sort of paperwork (other than long lost receipts).
So how can anyone really "prove" it's theirs?
Yup her implants certificates. I was baffled lol. Like first because WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? Holy privacy issue! But I will never forget most of that incident for sure xD
 

dk168

Ideal_Rock
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@jaysonsmom I guess I am questioning a poster's integrity.

It is not limited to mined vs. lab/MMD.

It also applies to, and not limited to: heated vs. unheated in CS; natural vs. cultured and Chinese vs. Japanese Akoyas in pearls, etc...

Many PSers, myself included, usually just accept the stats posted are true, unless something is obviously adrift, such as using stock photos or lifting photos of someone else's pieces and claim as their own etc...

I picked mined vs. lab/MMD as there are a lot of threads and posts about labs/MMDs recently, that's all.

DK :))
 

OoohShiny

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@OoohShiny unfortunately, when two stones are identical in terms of 4Cs, the lab/MMD will cost significantly less than the earth-mined stone especially in larger sizes.

Status speaks volume, hence there is such a big market for fakes in luxury goods, IMHO.

DK :))
I totally am with you on that :))

I am, however, now pondering whether the SMTB is being treated and/or perceived as a 'look how much money I have' section if to post an MMD without declaring it immediately would be seen as trying to be something it/one isn't... ;))

:)


Personally I think PS is pretty good in terms of not really mentioning price or money - I think it's quite 'old school' in that way, where it was seen as 'vulgar' to talk about money :)

I certainly never really think about the price of things when posting/reading on here. Sometimes I forget that when we're picking out 2ct (or whatever) weight stones, this is a real persons 20-30k of money they are spending!!
 

kenny

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I would transact the sale via a reputable PS appraiser to act as broker/escrow.
(S)he would receive the loose diamond, send it to GIA or AGS.
Notify both parties of the report grading info.

If everyone's happy, send the funds and goods to the seller and buyer for a fee to be shared 50 50.
 

AprilBaby

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I totally am with you on that :))

I am, however, now pondering whether the SMTB is being treated and/or perceived as a 'look how much money I have' section if to post an MMD without declaring it immediately would be seen as trying to be something it/one isn't... ;))

:)


Personally I think PS is pretty good in terms of not really mentioning price or money - I think it's quite 'old school' in that way, where it was seen as 'vulgar' to talk about money :)

I certainly never really think about the price of things when posting/reading on here. Sometimes I forget that when we're picking out 2ct (or whatever) weight stones, this is a real persons 20-30k of money they are spending!!
So are we more concerned about the amount of money spent or looking at pretty bling? I could show my ring only if I tell you how much I Spent? I have colored stones that are gorgeous that are lab created that I have not posted because they are not allowed. But is SMTB about the bling?
 

kenny

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To be honest for a wow shiny sub-forum I dont care if its mined. mmd or even a simulant.
They can all be wow shiny.
Good point.
You, and everyone else, can decide for themselves whether to care or not.
But the shininess being the same does not make them the same - not by a long shot.
Proof of this is in the price.
Supply and demand - and whether/how those, and we, have been manipulated is another thread.

The problem is the potential for deception when someone buys a MMD for marriage proposal.
Good, bad, right, or wrong, in our culture today it's assumed a proposal diamond was mined from the earth.

Many recipients of marriage proposal have not been pleased to find out the diamond they assumed was mined turns out to be manufactured in a lab.

Of course when both parties discuss and agree on a MMD before the proposal then it's fine, but lying and deception at this pivotal moment in a relationship is not fine.
 
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Matata

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What is an MMD?
 
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