How does an appraiser validate Pt 950 alloy type and percentage?

[blakeo]

Hi all,

I am looking to buy a platinum wedding band with 10 small channel set diamonds totalling about 1 ct. The e-ring is 950pt with 5% ruthenium alloy and I would like to do the same with the band.

I have read a number of posts as to the different alloys that can be used, their hardnesses, how brittle they are etc which is why I picked ruthenium for the e-ring but my question is:

What test/s can an appraiser do to ensure that what the jeweller says is a particular alloy and in what quantities is actually true?

Is the testing destructive (i.e. do you take a shaving and conduct a chemical analysis)

or can this be assessed by weight/volume/ conductivity?

I accept that there is a degree of trust in the integrity of the vendor (which is why I spent a lot of time reading posts here) and I have no reason to doubt the quality of the e-ring I have now, but given the threads advising to "

beware of ripoff internet vendors

" how can you check?

Thanks

 

[elmo]

I'd be more interested in finding a metalsmith who I trusted to make the ring from what he says he'll make the ring from than testing to be sure

.

 

[PlatinumDiamond]

Greetings!

From my understanding, most jewelers wouldn't know the mix that is in the platinum jewelry. Sometimes a slight difference in color may be a clue, how easily it scratches, possibly the age, and maybe if they knew who made it they might be able to find out then. But, it is highly unlikely that the mix would be found by the average jeweler. At least this is what I have been told by many jewelers and from what I have read and seen.

A trusted Platinumsmith? Hmmmm, I have only used one Platinumsmith for my custom rings and he is trust worthly, that's for sure. I did much reasearch for a long time before turning to Jeff and I never have or will regret it. His work is precision and exact. His web site tells you just about everything you need and want to know about platinum. He has even made platinum jewelry for some stars, too.


Jeff Truitt of http://www.DiamondsUnlimited.com & http://www.platinum-wedding-rings.com has been specializing in platinum rings for many years and his work shows it. I'm sure Jeff being a Platinumsmith could tell you the percentage of mix in a platinum ring because of his complete knowledge and working with it. Probably most Platinumsmiths could tell you the mix, but not jewelers who are not.

950 Platinum Ru is a wise choice, only takes a back seat to 950 Platinum S1, which is hard to find, if at all, other than from Jeff. At least I haven't found anyone out there using S1 except for him. His standard mix though that he uses is the 950 Platinum Ru (95% Platinum 5% Ruthenium at a 135+HV hardness rating).

Hope I was of some help to you!

 

[PlatinumDiamond]

what I meant to say, most jewelers and appraisers will not know the percentage mix that was used in the jewelry unless they were actually the ones that made it or knew who did make it so they could find out. All they would know is what the percentage of platinum is in the piece. Such as if it is stamped: 950 PLAT or just plain PLAT, that would tell them that the item has 95% Platinum in it.

 

[blakeo]

Thanks,

I know selecting a good vendor is one of the best ways of being assured of what your getting. My question is is it even possible for a qualified appraiser to check on the alloy and %?

Surely there are some appraisers out there who may have an idea? For that matter, how do you tell 14k gold from 18k from 24k?

 

[Hest88]

Hm. Wouldn't you have to scrape off some metal to subject it to tests?

 

[blakeo]

Thats what I want to know. And even if you do, how accurate are the tests? If I get an appraisal from a knowledgable specialist in this area, do they do anything other than take it for granted that what you say is true?

It doesn't seem likely, otherwise people would take in rhodium coated lead, tell the appraiser it was platinum, loose it, and make a claim (not that I'm suggesting anyone do this!).

But really, could an appraiser even tell the difference between white gold and platinum?

 

[dimonbob]

A good appraiser can tell the difference in platinum and white gold but he cannot tell you what alloy or what percentage is in a platinum ring. With the gold, he can tell you what karat gold it is.

Also to be honest, if you have a platinum/ruthenium ring on one hand and a platinum/iridium ring on the other hand, you will never know or see the difference. It is like the difference in hardness in 14kt yellow gold and 18kt yellow gold. The 18kt is softer but can you see or feel the difference...No! If you have a VVS1 on one hand and a VVS2 on the other hand and a loupe, can you see the difference...No! Can you even see it with the loupe...No!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Bob's correct. An appraiser can tell you whether an item is platinum or gold, but he can not distinguish the alloys used in either.

14 karat gold can have different alloys in it, just as platinum has different alloys. The appraiser has no way of knowing what alloys, unless he subcontracts a costly spectroanalysis test performed only by the major laboratories.

He can however, perform tests which will tell him whether the item is platinum or not. Rhodium plated lead won't pass the test.

 

[blakeo]

OK, thanks.

So there is a test to see if what you have is Platinum or not - same question again then - what is it? How accurate? Is it destructive (aka does the appraiser need to take a sliver for chemical analysis) or can this be done right on the ring without damage?

Given that there is a HUGE difference in price between 'genuine' platinum (950 etc) and potential fakes (10% Pt, 90% anything else), I was kinda hoping that this would be a standard part of the tests that I would get when I pay $80 for an appraisal. It seems incredible that for all the criteria and dicipline that goes into assessing diamonds, the not inconsiderable (for me) $1500 cost of the setting is largely taken for granted.

Is no one else concerned that a lot of us could be walking around with less than we think (or paid for?) and that there is little in the way to check?

 

[PlatinumDiamond]

>>>Is no one else concerned that a lot of us could be walking around with less than we think (or paid for?) and that there is little in the way to check?<<<

That is why I did long and extensive research regarding platinum jewelry and chose the Platinumsmith that I have been using to create my platinum rings. I guess if you find a jewelry piece that you like and are not sure of the mix or metal that you actually want, then it would be better to avoid it unless you could find out or if you don't care.

An appraiser appraises the jewelry for what is known by them at the time of the appraisal and usually only knowing the metal content as in 10K, 14K, 18K gold, 900 and 950 Platinum, etc., is all that is actually required for appraising of the metal portion of the piece. If the other mix is known, that is just an added plus but not a neccessary one to have the item appraised. There is a test to determine what precious metal it is and maybe even the percentage of that metal, but not the mix. It is usually done with a type of acid test or similar from what I recall.

 

[dimonbob]

Blakeo, you are not a very trusting person. When you purchase your first house, are you going to have all the walls torn down to see if all the electrical wires are done correctly?

In the first place there is no such thing as 10%pt and 90% something else. In the second place when you purchase an item of jewelry like the platinum and diamond broach above your name, you are not paying very much for the platinum. You are paying for those diamonds and the workmanship. There is a lot of time spent making that item, setting the diamonds and polishing the platinum. All of those people go to work every day and need to get paid. If the jeweler puts a stamp on the item, and he should, that says platinum or plat/irid or anything else and gets caught cheating, he is in deep do-do.

Jewelry does not have to meet the same engineering standards that a jet airplane does. Relax!

 

[knowverylittle]

Hi Blakeo,

My Fiancé has a 950PT ring. There is an easy layman's method to tell that it is not '10% Pt, 90% anything else'. It will be surprisingly heavy for its size, this is very easy to notice. My Fiancé likes showing-off the details on her ring to friends, the first thing they say is 'wow that's heavy'.

Platinum is about twice as dense as lead. I am not sure what else is more dense, even Plutonium is less dense and they make tank piercing munitions from it. If Uncle Sam could afford to fire Platinum shells at Iraqi tanks he probably would!!

How do you tell if it 85%, 90% or 95%? I guess you need some level of trust with the manufacturer or get technical: If you had a Sarin of the diamond (so could calculate its weight) I guess measuring the rings volume and using accurate scales could validate the Platinum content? At this point I expect Lawgem to jump in and correct my schoolboy physics.

Disclaimer: I am just a one-off e-ring consumer. (Still reading Pricescope trying to pick the perfect diamond. BTW: if you get a CZ everyone will be amazed when you tell then it is not real!)

 

[knowverylittle]

DOH! The number of points give the Diamonds weight. So that one is easy to calculate.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
So there is a test to see if what you have is Platinum or not - same question again then - what is
it? How accurate? Is it destructive (aka does the appraiser need to take a sliver for chemical
analysis) or can this be done right on the ring without damage?
-----------

The test is a non-destructive "rub" of the test metal on a whetstone, to which is applied a nitric acid solution.

It's pretty accurate when used with comparison test metals.

 

[Rank Amateur]

My boss has a Magic Eightball on his desk. An invaluable tool for the serious appraiser.

 

[mike04456]

----------------
On 2/2/2004 1:53:47 PM knowverylittle wrote:





Platinum is about twice as dense as lead. I am not sure what else is more dense, even Plutonium is less dense and they make tank piercing munitions from it. If Uncle Sam could afford to fire Platinum shells at Iraqi tanks he probably would!!

----------------

Platinum is the densest natural element at 21800 kg/m^2. But I think you mean depleted uranium, not plutonium for those tank shells. I would wager that plutonium is a lot more expensive than platinum is.

 

[knowverylittle]

>>I think you mean depleted uranium, not plutonium for those tank shells.
Yes I do, ooops. Think I have read too much about the law suits where Uranium shells are said to contain Plutonium.

Thanks again for setting me straight. This is very off topic but do you know if depleted Uranium used in tank shells because of its density? This is just a guess.

I did not realise Iridium (22650 kg/m^3 so Google says) was member of the Platinum family and is actually denser than Platinum. You are likely 100% correct; is Iridium not naturally occurring.

 

[mike04456]

----------------
On 2/3/2004 10:52:35 PM knowverylittle wrote:











Yes I do, ooops. Think I have read too much about the law suits where Uranium shells are said to contain Plutonium.

Thanks again for setting me straight. This is very off topic but do you know if depleted Uranium used in tank shells because of its density? This is just a guess.

I believe it is used because of its density and hardness. The problem with depleted uranium is that "depleted" only means that all the Uranium-235 has been burned up in a reactor. What's left is Uranium-238, which is still naturally radioactive (just not fissionable) with a half-life of 4.5 billion years, and a toxic heavy metal to boot.

I did not realise Iridium (22650 kg/m^3 so Google says) was member of the Platinum family and is actually denser than Platinum. You are likely 100% correct; is Iridium not naturally occurring.
----------------

No, I'm 100% wrong. My bad. It's been too long since my college engineering courses. Osmium and Iridium (both natural elements) are denser than platinum. Which one is denser apparently depends on how you measure it.