house, children and law school...how did you manage?

[Nov2109]

Well...here is my prediciment.

I am 23...just graduated last year with my bachelor''s in business. I''ve worked in marketing/advertising for the last two years. I''ve been working in marketing full time for over a year now and have come to realize while I do like my job-I don''t want to do it for the rest of my life...and I am beginning to start feeling the effects of not being happy in my career...which scares me because I am waaaay to young to feel like that.

I''ve always had an interest in law school, I even minored in political science-so I decided(or thought I did) that I''m going to prepare to take the LSAT and go to law school after the wedding. My fiance is really supportive of this as he wishes he had done certain things when he was a little younger (he is 29)...however he is a little concerned with our future plans...a house and children. He wants children like yesterday, and I also want kids but I do want to make sure I am happy in my career and I am established before I bring another life into the world.

He feels bad because he is older than me, and feels he should be more established than he is and doesn''t want to hold me back from anything-he started saying he feels bad for proposing while I am so young etc...hes a wonderful and caring person, which is why I am lucky to be marrying him! I reassured him that if I wasn''t ready to marry him, I wouldn''t have said yes or started planning the wedding! His mother is one of the nicest and considerate people i have ever met, but is VERY old fashioned and made a comment about how "kids these days wait so long to have kids because of their careers that their children never really get to know their grandparents".I know she wasnt saying that as a dig at us because she has grandchildren from both of his sister...and she was just putting her two cents in while having a conversation about college and people starting out later in life...but it still eats at me-things are much different now than they were back then and she doesnt always understand that. I feel like I''m holding her back from having more grandchildren because I want to have a career...shes a nurse so she should understand, maybe?

I''d really like to go to law school as I am sure it is something I will enjoy(i like researching things and digging into facts, im also extremely stubborn and organized which I hear are some good traits for lawyers

) but I don''t want to put his life on hold with kids...which I am afraid will make him unhappy. I''ll have to go part time-so ill still be working full time, and we will be able to swing a house in the meantime, but still no kids, not for another 5-6 years...he said he''d rather have a happy wife and no kids for a little while than have kids with an unhappy wife who hates going to work.

I just have no idea what to do. Its such a touchy subject because of the whole kids thing. He really wants kids and so do I-but not right now, and not getting married is not an option because we both want to marry eachother and start our life together. A house is very important to me as are children, I guess I just have more time to have them because I''m so young, but hes getting old(not sure when 30 became old-he cracks me up)..I think he just wants to be a young dad...and there is nothing wrong with that.

Has anyone dealt with something similar? Is it that hard to juggle a wedding, a house, law school and kids? Just reading what I wrote made me have a "what am I thinking, I can''t handle this" moment....not to mention I''m going to tack on another $130k to my current student loans. I just feel like if I don''t do it now, 10 years from now I''ll have a beautiful house and wonderful children and a great husband, and I''ll hate what I do everyday at work...and I didn''t spend all the money I spent in college and worked as hard as I did to hate my career.

Bleh.

 

[princesss]

It sounds like you''re answering your own question. You hate your job, you have the chance to study something more fulfilling, your FI is supportive (disappointed, but supportive) and it gives you a chance to get out of a career you hate. This seems like a golden chance, honey. Take it!

 

[elrohwen]

It sounds to me like you know what you want, but you're worried about how others in your life (FI and FMIL) will handle it. I think your FI will be there for and it sounds like he's very supportive. Sure he wants kids, but just talk to him about it and work out something together. I don't know a lot about law school, but I know that for most PhD candidates there are a busy few years at first, and a few slower years towards the end with thesis writing, etc. If law school is similar, you may be able to put off kids for only 3-4 years and then work them into your life. You're still very very young, so, personally, I don't see anything wrong with waiting until your mid to late 20s to have kids. Then again, I don't want kids any time before 30, so I'm probably not coming from the same place as you and your FI

As for the FMIL thing, try not to let it get to you. My FMIL had kids after the age of 30 by choice, yet when she learned that was my plan as well, she went to FI and get upset that he wanted kids and I didn't and blah blah blah (not sure where she got the info that I didn't want kids and that FI was dying to have them soon ... neither of those are true). Basically, she got really worked up over nothing because FI and I agree perfectly on our kid plan. Sometimes moms just want grandkids and they forget what it was like when they were that age and trying to start lives out. Try not to let her impatience push you away from things you really want to do. Like I said, 23 is young and you have many years to have kids before you become "an old mom."

 

[trillionaire]

go back to school. you will alll (you, hub, kids) have a better life because of it.

 

[purselover]

Idk what kind of law you''re interested in but if you''re interested in big firm law from what I hear from FI (who''s in law school) women lawyers either never see their kids, or they end up sacrificing their career for their family. Also unless you go to a top school and end up at a top firm you take on a lot of debt that can be extremely difficult to pay back. Now is not a good time to be a law student FI has gotten several offers from top places, but so many classmates of his (at one of the best law schools) are still waiting to get offers that may never come. I hate to be a downer but law school is anything but easy, and having kids and a law career will be extremely difficult.

 

[Haven]

It does sound like you know what you want to do, and unfortunately your plan and your FI''s plan are just not in sync with each other.

Here is what I would do:
- First, make sure that you truly want to be a lawyer. I went to one semester of law school and realized it wasn''t for me. I had a full ride plus stipend to go, so I lost nothing but time, but I still wish I had realized that I didn''t want to be a lawyer before I entered law school rather than after. And if you do want to be a lawyer, nail that LSAT, it''s so vital for getting a good scholarship.
- Once you''re sure you want to attend law school, it sounds like you and your FI need to have a serious discussion about what you are each willing to give up and for how long. If he isn''t willing to give up being a young father, and you aren''t willing to give up law school, then you''ll need to work with that and come up with a solution that suits everyone.

Easier said than done, right? But in these cases I think the only thing you can do is talk it out and make sure that you both know each other''s priorities and non-negotiables.

I will say that you are both still young, and even if it takes you six years to get through law school you''ll only be 29 when you''re done. I''ll be 29 next month, and my DH will be 40 in April, and we aren''t even close to thinking about having kids. (I just share that to maybe make you feel better. You two are SO not even close to being too old to have kids!)

 

[MagsyMay]

It sounds like you''ve thought this through quite a bit already, which is wonderful to hear. I, on the other hand, did not, or at least I realized AFTER law school, that perhaps I hadn''t as thoroughly as I thought I had. I went straight from undergrad to law school and did so mainly because I didn''t know what type of career I wanted and didn''t like the looks of any of the potential jobs I may have been hired for. Like you, I always enjoyed researching, facts, details, arguments, and the like, thought I''d enjoy law school, took the LSAT, and off I went.

I do not want to try to dissuade you away from law school, but I really urge you to explore WHAT you want type of law you plan to practice. Sadly, what I thought I wanted to do, and what became realistic, were two very different things. I also realized very quickly that law school was not at all what I expected it to be (which was both good and bad!), and as most attorneys will tell you, is nothing like actually practicing law. Then throw in a less than stellar job market when I got out of law school, which is 20x worse now, and that I didn''t end up with a big law firm salary, and instead ended up starting at a fraction of what I realistically "thought" I would earn... and well, let''s just say you really start to question your decision!

Have you discussed with FI whether you would continue to work full time after having children? I think it''s a really important question to discuss, because depending on the field you go into and the atmosphere (law firm, in-house counsel, government, etc.), often "part-time" is not really an option, at least not in the beginning. It also may put a serious burden on your ability to spend time at home with your children, and if you FI is working an equally demanding job, that could leave you in a bind, or with leaving the kids with nannies (as many of my friends do). I think you have to seriously consider what type of family life and motherhood you envision. I don''t plan on having children, but if I did, I would not want to have the type of motherhood that many friends I know are having right now. Leaving first thing in the morning, kids with the nanny or dropped at day care, stressing about meeting billable hours requirements if they have to take a child to the doctor, or want to catch an early tee ball game, getting home late, working after you get home, on weekends, etc. Of course that''s not everyone''s "lawyer" life, but a lot of times if you want the big salary to pay off those loans (see below, ha), that''s what your life might look like.

Ohhh loans.

I have a bit more than you would have(around $180K, private school, lived in Chicago, needed loans for living expenses because did not receive help from parents, throw in a few summer session loans, a bar examination loan to cover Barbri... you add it up!). I can tell you my monthly loan payment is a mortgage in and of itself. Couple that with a mortgage of your own, a job that might not pay quite as much as you anticipate a legal job paying, children, etc., you can see how it can put a great burden on you financially. If your FI will make plenty enough to cover all that, more power to you, but it is something to consider (as I''m sure you have!). Then, when you think about possibly taking time off when your kiddos are young, going part-time, or not working at one of those six-figure law firm jobs etc., you can see how sometimes the benefit might not end up being worth the "burden" of the loan debt incurred!

Anyways, sorry for the ramblings. It''s just something that hits me very close to home. I really do regret my decision (as does my FI) to go to law school and wish I had heard it from someone who had before I did. One thing you might consider, is contacting any lawyer you might know, or perhaps and alum from your college, and request an informational interview, via phone or otherwise. Most lawyers I know love when people contact them and ask about what they do, do they like it, would they have gone that route had they known the pros/cons, typical salary ranges, etc. If you have your heart set on a particular area of law, this is an especially good tool because sometimes what we think that area of law will be like is not really like what it is when you''re out there practicing! My point is just to really try to expose yourself to as much as you can about law school and what type of career you envision, and not to jump into something because you are unhappy with your job at such an early stage.

So, that''s just my experience, for whatever it''s worth! My two cents... or $180K! Good luck with your decision!

 

[Octavia]

Date: 9/15/2009 4:49:36 PM
Author: Haven

- First, make sure that you truly want to be a lawyer. I went to one semester of law school and realized it wasn''t for me. I had a full ride plus stipend to go, so I lost nothing but time, but I still wish I had realized that I didn''t want to be a lawyer before I entered law school rather than after. And if you do want to be a lawyer, nail that LSAT, it''s so vital for getting a good scholarship.

Ditto, ditto, ditto. And another ditto to MagsyMay''s whole post. Being good at and/or enjoying law school is absolutely not the same thing as being good at and/or enjoying being a lawyer. I''m a 3L and, while there are certain areas of law I would like to practice, I have no desire to "be a lawyer" in the way that the legal profession generally defines the job. I didn''t realize as quickly as Haven that life as a lawyer isn''t for me, and by that point I was deep enough into it that I decided to finish the degree and hope for the best. I was lucky to get a substantial scholarship and will be coming out with relatively little debt -- but I still owe the government a sizeable chunk of change. Too much when you consider that I''m seriously looking at non-legal careers for after graduation.

I''ve also been planning my wedding for most of the time I''ve been in law school. One thing I''ll say is that it''s hard to obsess over wedding details when schoolwork has taken over your life. This can be good or bad, depending on your perspective. As far as kids...don''t have them yet and we probably won''t try for another couple years, although my FI is like yours and strongly votes for sooner rather than later. There are people in my class who have kids already or who are now pregnant, and they seem to be doing fine, but it''s not something I would want to do. On the other hand, schools tend to be more flexible than law firms, so some people argue that it''s better to have babies while in school. So there are pros and cons either way, I guess.

In the end, all I can really say is to seriously take stock of why you want to go and what your real, true goals are. If you''re sure that you want to be a lawyer, just realize that it will be taking the bad with the good and go for your dream!

 

[Haven]

I just wanted to come back and share my sister''s story with you. (She sometimes posts on here as AngryElf, I think it is.)

She''s 24, her FI is 25, they''ve been together for over seven years, and they just got engaged a few months ago. My sister enrolled in a six year rabbinical program and left for one year in Israel on July 5th. She''ll be in Israel for one year, LA for two years, and then Cincinnati for three years after that. Her FI is a high school teacher here in Illinois, and he is not sure that he wants to leave Illinois to be with her for any of her schooling. They''re working on a compromise, but my sister left knowing that becoming a rabbi is not something she is willing to compromise, so that''s what she pursued.

I guess what I''m saying is: Once you figure out what is *most* important to you, everything else must take a back seat if you want to be happy in the long run.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[MakingTheGrade]

I agree with those here that have suggested really thinking about what it is that attracts you to law and whether you really want to be a lawyer. 5-6 years part-time is a long time and monetary commitment, and it''s hard to say what the job market will be like by the time you graduate. Have you thought about other legal jobs or jobs with similar skill sets? I have a friend who is working as a paralegal for a year to get an up close look at life as a lawyer, and see if it''s an environment and lifestyle she would enjoy as a career. And so far she seems to think it''s not, and is happy she found out before she started law school.

However, if you do decide to go back, I think if you have a strong support system, then you can have kids while in school. I''m currently in medical school, and my husband is also older than me and itching to have kids. I asked the upperclassmen and female faculty about when the "best" time to fit a pregnancy is during a medical career, and the answer was "there is no good time". Even so, many of them have done it and were happy they did, and they suggested the 4th year of school as the lesser of evils in terms of timing, because school is more forgiving than an employer. When I do plan to have kids, I know my parents will be very active in providing additional care for them when the husband and I are too busy, which I"m ever so grateful for.

But I''d agree with previous posters, think about what your priorities are, and once you figure that out, you''ll find a way to balance the rest.

 

[PilsnPinkysMom]

Okay. MAJOR edit of my post... I'm totally projecting my own dissatisfaction with my bankruptcy class on you

But really- I shouldn't have vented in my response to you. My first year of law school was emotionally draining, and I'm not certain I want to be a practicing attorney. You are not me. My experience is irrelevant! Sorry for that, dear.

Law school comes with the good and the bad. If you feel in your heart that you'd like to have a JD and use it in any way, and if you have the support of those who love you (which is helpful while a student!), go for it!

There are plenty of pregnant women in my school, as well as moms, and tons of dads. My greatest concern with parenting while a student is MONEY. That being said, you and your FI will know if you can swing a fam + school + home.

Do some soul searching and look deep in your heart and I'm sure you'll know what's most important to you... Kids/home soon, or law school and a legal career, with the family stuff happening at a later date. Or, do it all at once and I will be convinced you're Superwoman

 

[fleur-de-lis]

Yikes.

 

[MagsyMay]

I wonder why this is such a common occurrence among law students/lawyers?? I mean, honestly, out of all of the people I remain in contact with from law school, I''d say about 2 or 3 actually enjoy it (usually prosecutors, I find). I actually REALLY enjoyed law school, don''t get me wrong, that part was fine! Although I will say, after about 1 year I knew I didn''t want to be a lawyer, but figured I was in too deep to turn back (big mistake

).

I hope we all didn''t speak too harshly about this Nov2109. If it''s what you want, after doing the research and self reflection, you should absolutely go for it. I don''t think having kids is reason enough to forego if law is your passion! And I too have heard pregnant classmates and attorneys say it''s better to have the babies in law school when you have more flexibility!

 

[Nov2109]

thanks everyone, for your advice...it really means a lot and to know I'm not the only one who is wondering how am I going to pull this all off. Its nice to know other people survived!

princess and trillionaire-i have thought about what I want, if only it was that easy!
elrowhen-alot of it is about letting other people down as well as myself. its a tough situation to be in!purselover-i think id like to work in public interest-maybe a prosecutor? eventually an ada...i have no urge to be a defense attorney-they seem to be very unhappy people.
Haven-I am hoping for scholarships. The minimum undergrad GPA to get into the law school I am interested in is a 3.5, I had a 3.8-so I should qualify for some. I need to get a 158 or higher on the lsat for most scholarships, so ill be studying like crazy to try and get scholarships-if i get a ton of money, it will be a no-brainer
MagsyMay-ive been thinking about this everyday for the past 6 months! Its so much money, its a very good law school-Rutgers Law(not sure if anyone is familiar with it)and luckily its considered a state school so I'll luck out with instate tuition. FI has a good job, but hes not making millions, so I would be working full time after law school. I anticipate it taking me 3.5-4 years to finish and then wait another 2 years to have kids.
Octavia-I was thinking about entering in the spring, but with the wedding in early june-there was no way that was happening!
Pilsn-i agree, none of the above are things to take lightly, which is why I am struggling with all of this so much!
Makingthegrade-I have thought about trying to get a job as a paralegal while in law school-but making a career change before I have another degree to make the change scares me! I still have undergrad loans to pay back!
Fleur-my thoughts exactly!

We had a long talk about this tonight over dinner. I'm going to prepare for the LSAT. If I get a 158 or higher on it, I'll apply for law school, I should be guaranteed some scholarships to offset costs. My LSAT score will be good for 5 years, so I can make the decision to enroll at anytime. FI is getting his MBA and that should be an increase in his income once it is complete-which makes me feel better about this whole situation...we talked about having kids while I was in school-and what type of law I want to go into so I can still be a mom and a lawyer...the idea of having kids in my 3rd year, going on maternity leave and then just focusing on school after that might just work! Id rather not work for a big firm, they don't care if you have a life outside of the office, ive seen it first hand. Im also tossing round real estate law, my uncle is a real estate lawyer and loves it, there is nothing that keeps you up at night, in most cases both parties are happy and the work is steady! I like law in general....i just find it to be interesting.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 9/15/2009 6:38:23 PM
Author: MagsyMay
I wonder why this is such a common occurrence among law students/lawyers?? I mean, honestly, out of all of the people I remain in contact with from law school, I'd say about 2 or 3 actually enjoy it (usually prosecutors, I find).

I think that's one of the reasons med schools rarely accept applicants who don't show they have enough experience in clinical or research medicine to know that it's what they definitely want to do. Most med schools look for either extensive work/volunteer experiences in the medical field and/or extensive medical research achievements. Because neither the school or the student really wants to risk the student dropping out of school or quitting the profession after a year or two. Med schools also require interviews, and part of what they screen for is how mature the applicant is in their knowledge of what they are getting into.

I used to find it odd that law schools didn't require interviews, or similar extracurricular experiences since law school is also expensive and very stressful (I've heard that law school acceptance is based almost entirely on scores). But I guess the law school entry numbers aren't as limited, unlike doctors, so they don't worry as much if people quit after entry?

Anyways, sorry about the sidetrack.
Best of luck on the LSAT!

 

[boredstiff]

The job market is REALLY bad right now for lawyers. Read abovethelaw.com or jdunderground.com to see what lawyers and law students are going through right now. IF you decide you really, really want to be a lawyer, I would only recommend you do it if:

1. You get into a top 25 law school and
2. You get a 50% or more scholarship.

If you take out 100% in loans, you will be forever handcuffed financially; plus if you go to a lesser school, your job prospects will be greatly diminished. How long do you think it will take to pay off $150K in loans on a $40K salary? Even at $160K (standard big firm salary), it will take a while to pay off those loans. You'll be stuck in that job even if you later decide you want to focus on your family.

FWIW, we're interviewing summer associate candidates right now and turning away top 10% kids on law review.

EDIT: You should read this NY Times article too: http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/students-fret-as-big-law-jobs-disappear/

 

[4ever]

Does it HAVE to be Law? Are you sure you''ll enjoy it? I think the better choice considering what all the wise ladies who have replied before me have said about the costs involved and the sacrificed you''d have to make is looking for somthing similar to what you''re doing now and what you''re qualified to do but maybe a bit more creative or challanging or just somthing new. I think an entire career change is a bit drastic.

As for the partner being ready before you issues, I can relate there. I''m about to turn 21 and my FF is 28. He want''s marrige and babies as of yesterday and wants to be a young dad. However, I still have a term of uni left before I graduate and then I need to work on getting a job and working my way up to where I want to be. And then I really want to do more travel before I settle down and start having babies. I just don''t see myself having kids untill atleast my late 20''s, which would make it his mid 30''s. I''ts hard to feel like your withholding somthing your partner wants so much. He loves you and he''ll wait untill you''re ready so try not to worry about it so much.

 

[Yimmers]

Just my two cents.

First, you should try working in a law firm or getting exposure to one before deciding whether you want to make the huge financial commitment. Also be aware that not all law firms are alike. A small to mid sized firm will be much different than a large firm. So will the pay, but, a lot of us choose smaller firms because the work life balance actually exists.

Second, I received a public interest law certificate in law school, and in the Bay Area, public interest is a very competitive field. That being said, public interest law pays very little. You are doing it because you really are committed to the cause. Realistically, I am not doing public interest law now because I took my current job in a bad job market. The law market is one of the last to pick up, apparently. Talking to people who do public interest law, most have spouses who are able to provide for the family. That is something you need to consider with your fiance.

Third, let go what FMIL said. You will need to decide what will make you happy, and what you can compromise on. If you''re not ready to have kids, then don''t. If you feel forced, you will look back in regret and unhappiness.

Fourth, um, a mortgage and student loans will be a lot of debt. If you get a mortgage, figure out what you can manage along with loans, and the reality that you won''t be earning money towards the mortgage for awhile if you go to law school.

Fifth, some of my classmates still practice law. Few of the mothers do, but a lot have taken time off or moved onto different fields. Sadly, law firms still don''t make it easy to have kids; my co-workers quit because they wanted to spend more time with their kids, and part time wasn''t working out at our firm. I''m not sure what''s going to happen when I get to that position, but I know that with a mortgage, we can''t afford to not have me work.

Finally, law school was nothing like practicing in real life, at least for me.

 

[havernell]

Date: 9/15/2009 7:22:55 PM
Author: Nov2109

I have thought about trying to get a job as a paralegal while in law school-but making a career change before I have another degree to make the change scares me! I still have undergrad loans to pay back!

I worked as a paralegal for the US government for a few years after college before going to grad school. You don''t need any degree beyond a bachelors to be a paralegal, so trust me when I say that you are fully qualified to be a paralegal NOW. Also, you don''t need a poli sci degree to be a paralegal. Firms/the government want paralegals who are good an reseraching and writing, period- and that can be achieved in any major in college. One of my co-paralegals had a philosophy degree. I suspect a paralegal with a business degree will be attractive to firms/govt offices who work in anti-trust, real estate and other business related fields. Really, you are more than qualified to be a paralegal.

Honestly, I would STRONGLY suggest looking for paralegal jobs *now* and applying for them (why wait until you are in law school)? If you get one, you can quit your current job which you dislike and you''ll get to see what being a lawyer is really like before/as you are applying to law school. Plus, you''ll be surrounded by lawyers who can give you tips for the LSAT. Sounds like a win-win situation to me!

Also, being a career paralegal can be a very satifying and in-demand job. You assist attorneys with all aspects of cases- you do a ton of reasearch and fact finding (all the stuff you said you liked about working in the legal field). Bascially, you do a lot of the same work as lawyers except that you can''t be the one to stand up in court and argue. So, perhaps being a career paralegal is something to consider. The attorneys in my office really treated me as a fulll team member, and I didn''t have to spend years and tons of money in law school to get that!

Good luck making a decision on what to do!

 

[MagsyMay]

Nov2109: I just wanted to say I think you took quite a few (including mine of course) harsh criticisms in stride very gracefully! I was worried about having come off too pessimistic (litigation work will do that to ya!), but I''m glad you seem very rational about the matter. I happen to do real estate litigation, not so much transactional, but knowing attorneys that do that, it can be a bit more relaxed. It really does all depend on the firm, and of course you can never predict where you''ll end up! If you are flexible and have FI/hubby''s income to tide you over, you''ll be much less pressured into taking a job because you "need it NOW" than many new law school graduates. Hopefully that will allow you to choose carefully to find the best fit for your lifestyle!

 

[Octavia]

Date: 9/15/2009 9:27:50 PM
Author: Yimmers
Also be aware that not all law firms are alike. A small to mid sized firm will be much different than a large firm. So will the pay, but, a lot of us choose smaller firms because the work life balance actually exists.

So true. I was basing my idea of what being a lawyer is like on the firm my mom works for. It''s a small firm in a rural town, and I actually think I''d really enjoy a practice like that. However, I live in a big city and, for the time being, there''s no chance of moving back to a smaller town...and big city law (at least here) isn''t something I really want to do. So if you decide to do some paralegal work before making the decision about law school, try to work in the kind of environment you want to eventually be in, so you don''t get a false picture of what it''s like.

Which Rutgers are you thinking about going to? I didn''t realize that any law schools let people begin in the spring semester! When I was applying, I got into Rutgers Camden but as a PA resident who didn''t want to move, I decided to go to the school just across the river.

I also think that real estate law is pretty interesting (took a class on it last semester) but most of the work here is strictly commercial and I''d honestly rather do residential...but almost nobody in PA uses residential real estate attorneys. My professor practices in central Jersey, though, and from what he said, real estate lawyers are much more common there than in PA.

 

[Nov2109]

MagsyMay The posts weren't harsh-just honest which was exactly what I wanted to hear. I don't want sugarcoated answers about how being a lawyer is great and you'll be just fine..because that would just be lies. I know being a lawyer requires some late nights and alot of work. Its not as glamourous as it is on TV!
Octavia I am looking into Rutgers Camden..how do you like it? I just moved to the philadelphia area from the shore area in NJ...my FI works in center city-hes the one with the established career so I made the move and have to figure out exactly what I want to do with my career now. I had to take a job Im not too happy with to be with him-the market is bad, even with my grades and experience, there are so many people with 7 years experience who are willing to take whatever they can get! My current employer doesn't have much respect for women..but thats a story for another day. I'm not asking for special treatment, just equal treatment. I never thought in my lifetime I would experience this. I thought people have moved on! Was I wrong!
Havernell I'll look into being a paralegal as well...just nervous to make a career change right now with so much going on...school is different to me. Hopefully this economy will turn around and there will be more jobs opening up in all fields. Ive noticed a pick up in the private sector a bit...but nothing crazy yet!
Yimmers any advice is always appreciated!
4ever Ive thought about a masters...but I'd want it in Market research, which is such a hard field to break into...and im not sure I want to work in business for the rest of my life. It can be very tedious and boring...everything is about the bottom line and it doenst matter who you run over in the process. Can be depressing at times. Ive also thought about getting my graphic design cert as I picked it up as a hobby and am pretty good at it...however I enjoy it, but for small projects of my own, not sure id want to make a career out of it.

theres so many options to pursue, and law school just seemed the most logical because ive always been interested in it.

 

[LilyKat]

Date: 9/15/2009 8:20:43 PM
Author: boredstiff
The job market is REALLY bad right now for lawyers. Read abovethelaw.com or jdunderground.com to see what lawyers and law students are going through right now. IF you decide you really, really want to be a lawyer, I would only recommend you do it if:


1. You get into a top 25 law school and

2. You get a 50% or more scholarship.


If you take out 100% in loans, you will be forever handcuffed financially; plus if you go to a lesser school, your job prospects will be greatly diminished. How long do you think it will take to pay off $150K in loans on a $40K salary? Even at $160K (standard big firm salary), it will take a while to pay off those loans. You''ll be stuck in that job even if you later decide you want to focus on your family.


FWIW, we''re interviewing summer associate candidates right now and turning away top 10% kids on law review.


EDIT: You should read this NY Times article too: http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/students-fret-as-big-law-jobs-disappear/

I have to agree that law school does not necessarily equal a better future, especially in this economy. You aren''t guaranteed a return on your investment (so to speak), so make sure you really go into it with your eyes open about what your prospects on graduation realistically are. It has to be something you really love and truly want to do.

I think the children question should be kept separate. I''m hearing clearly from your original post that you just aren''t ready to have children - and that''s perfectly reasonable! You''re 23! Don''t let worries about what other people think and want influence you in such a life-changing decision. Unless YOU are desperate to have children in the next few years, I think it''s very wise to hold off.

It sounds like you''ve given it a lot of thought and are being very mature. I wish you the best.

 

[Octavia]

Nov2109, I''m not at R-C, I decided against it for money and commuting reasons. But I''ve met students who go there at various recruiting events, through summer jobs, etc. and they all seem to like it! As you know, Camden isn''t the safest city but apparently the law school is pretty self-contained. That''s about all I know, though.

The Philly metro area is a tough place to practice law right now. There were a lot of layoffs during the winter and spring, so there are a lot of young, out-of-work attorneys competing for the same jobs as ''09 graduates and students in my class. And most of the big firms hired less than half the number of first-year associates they normally would have (some didn''t hire any) so it''s created a trickle-down effect to other jobs (clerkships especially, but also small firms and basically anything that pays a salary, at this point). Hopefully, fingers crossed, things will be better in 3-4 years, when you would be graduating if you decide to go soon, but who knows. If you want to keep an eye on how things are going, check out The Legal Intelligencer (not sure what the website is, but I''m sure it will come up on Google) -- it''s the daily legal newspaper for this region, and you can browse the headlines and usually the blog without having to pay the subscription fee.

Non-law-related, if you''re in this area you should try to make the Philly Get-Together (GTG) on Oct. 17! There''s a gem show near Penn that people are planning to browse through.

I think MakingTheGrade posted about it in Hangout awhile ago, we''ll probably bump it back up when it gets closer to the date.

 

[kittybean]

Date: 9/15/2009 8:20:43 PM
Author: boredstiff
The job market is REALLY bad right now for lawyers. Read abovethelaw.com or jdunderground.com to see what lawyers and law students are going through right now. IF you decide you really, really want to be a lawyer, I would only recommend you do it if:

1. You get into a top 25 law school and
2. You get a 50% or more scholarship.

If you take out 100% in loans, you will be forever handcuffed financially; plus if you go to a lesser school, your job prospects will be greatly diminished. How long do you think it will take to pay off $150K in loans on a $40K salary? Even at $160K (standard big firm salary), it will take a while to pay off those loans. You''ll be stuck in that job even if you later decide you want to focus on your family.

FWIW, we''re interviewing summer associate candidates right now and turning away top 10% kids on law review.

EDIT: You should read this NY Times article too: http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/students-fret-as-big-law-jobs-disappear/

I''m with Boredstiff--I wouldn''t go to law school with the way things are looking right now economically if you don''t get into a top law school with a significant scholarship.

I''m a young attorney right now (age 25, practicing for 1 year), and I think I''m a lot like you describe yourself. I''m also organized and tenacious, and I love research and investigation. I also love reading and writing, so I thought I was a perfect candidate for law school. As it turns out, I hated it. Reading and writing in law school is nothing like reading and writing in undergrad, and it was a struggle for me the entire time. I put my nose to the grindstone and ended up doing well, but boy, was it hard. I did the whole summer associate thing my second summer in law school, and I did not like working for a firm. If you start poking around the legal community, you will notice that the vast majority of law firm partners are men; the law is not all that kind to women with children they want to see (men too, really).

Fortunately, I ended up with a job I love in public interest (something I thought I''d never want to do in law school, actually!). It pays ridiculously little for the time and money I put into law school, but I didn''t take out any loans, so I''m fine with my current salary. My DH is a big firm associate, and while he makes significantly more than I do, he also works 70-80 hours a week consistently. In our legal community, firms are laying off attorneys left and right, and even the people who are in the top 10% of their class aren''t getting summer associate jobs or offers at firms. Competition for clerkships and government and public interest jobs is absolutely insane. It is not pretty.

If you do end up deciding to go to law school, I would aim higher on the LSAT. Getting into law school is harder now than it has been in years because so many people are deciding to do grad school because of the bad job market. To be brutally honest, I would shoot to score at least above 165 (probably higher) if you want to be considered for any of the quickly-dwindling scholarship funds available out there. Although I didn''t take it, it seems like the Kaplan course is good for upping your score a few points. There is a "logic games" section of the LSAT that is initially hard for many people, but there is no reason you shouldn''t get every single one right in this section, and apparently Kaplan and other courses teach you how to solve these puzzles. If you did well on the verbal SAT, you will likely do well on the reading comprehension section of the LSAT; it''s more difficult, but it''s the same sort of exam. The logical reasoning section, IMO, is the most like what you will have to do in law school (but still not that similar). If you''re a good standardized test-taker, I think you''ll do fine. Oh--and only plan to take it once. Many schools look down on taking it more than once (my admissions office did), and if you do take it multiple times, they will average your score instead of just looking at the higher one.

My other piece of advice if you do decide to go to law school is to try and have as diverse an internship experience as possible. I worked for two judges, a full-service law firm, and a public defender during law school, and all those different things helped me to find a practice area I enjoyed. If I hadn''t been open-minded, I think I would be jobless or stuck in a position I hated right now.

I hope my answer wasn''t too harsh; I just want to give you as honest an opinion as possible. I wish I could tell you more about law school + house + kids. I just got married, but I don''t have any children or a house yet (house is coming soon, though!). Best of luck with everything!

 

[Sha]

You might want to also ask this on the ''Family and Home'' board...since a lot of the ladies there (some of them lawyers) are currently juggling children, career, house and other responsibilities.

 

[cocolaw]

"I feel like I''m holding her back from having more grandchildren because I want to have a career..."

you are being waay too considerate! holding her back from having more grandchildren??? she is holding you back from having a career. go to law school if that''s what you really think you want to do! if i were you, i would try to work at a law firm for a few months just to see if you like it.

you CAN have kids while in law school. MANY people do that! yeah it''s hard, but it''s doable. law school is not nearly as hard as people make it out to be-treat it like a job, don''t let yourself get overwhelmed or bogged down and you will be fine!

but really really think about going!! i know so many people who really regret their decision to go!!!!!

 

[Yimmers]

Well...just because you don''t get into a top tier law school doesn''t automatically mean you won''t get a job. Will it be harder? Yes. But you must take into consideration the respect the local law schools receive in the area. For example, in the Sacramento, CA area, UC Davis is considered a higher ranked law school then McGeorge. However, UC Davis students have a harder time finding jobs in Sacramento because the area has more established McGeorge graduates. UCD has a younger law school, and doesn''t have the established alum base in Sacramento. Through networking and contacts, McGeorge alums have an easier time obtaining employment in that area. Thus, you should highly consider what reputation the local school has in the area you wish to practice in. While carrying degrees from very well accredited law schools helps, be aware that alums often wish to help out their own fellow grads.

It took me awhile to land my first job. My husband, however, got his job within several months after passing the bar. Why? Networking and contacts. With the job market being so tight, networking becomes very important. I was passed up for my job in favor of someone who had connections with a person at the firm. And when my husband was looking, I knew some people in the field and we were able to drop some names to score him an interview at his firm. He also had a classmate who was recruiting for the public defender''s office as well. Several people at his firm looked down on him because he went to a "third tier" law school. But he was on law review, and externed for a judge. His co-worker went to a high ranked law school, and quite frankly, got outclassed by everyone else at the firm.

So, wherever you go, make the most of your experience. Intern, extern, do clinics, join groups, law review, moot court, etc. Even if you don''t get onto moot court board or law review, there are many ways to make yourself stand out from the masses.

If you don''t get into the top ranked law schools, don''t let people dog on you. My husband''s old co-worker went to a high ranked law school and couldn''t properly cite the holding of a case. When my husband got flak for his law school, his response was: Yes, I went to a lower tier law school. Which meant that I had to work even harder to get where I am today, because I don''t have anything else to fall back on other than my own merit. So, you can take someone based on their school''s reputation, or you can take me, who has had to work even harder because I''ve got nothing else to go by other than my own efforts. If you choose me, you know you will get someone who has and will work very hard. Not all, but some people think that going to a well ranked school is enough. In the end, your effort and merit will ultimately speak for how well of an attorney you will be.

 

[jjc]

You've already gotten a ton of really great advice about things to keep in mind (the most important of which is, IMO - law school is probably nothing like you expect it to be!), but I just wanted to offer you a slightly different perspective. I started law school in 2005 and then had to leave after my first semester (family issues). After 3 years of soul-searching and thinking of every reason not to go back, I did. (And had to re-take first semester of first year - o the horror!!) And despite the dismal job market and being worn completely ragged from reading, Law Review, and the 234,534,458 networking events I go to a week...I still cannot imagine doing anything else. The 'brain-hurt,' I call it. I love it (and also hate it

), despite the trauma of leaving a top tier school that I loved, to being at a much lower ranked school that I hate (but that gives me a full scholarship). My point is just that yes, it will be hard to do law school with kids, buying a house, insanely crappy job prospects (or lack thereof)...but if (and that's a huge if) it's what you love, you will find a way to make it work, and it will be the best choice for you

Also, if you have kids in school and then go public sector (i.e. government) right out of school, that would be much easier than going big law straightaway. Good luck!

ETA - my best friend in law school just decided to start trying for kids next year (our third year), and I was all for it. I've known many professional women who say that ultimately, they were glad they had their children while in grad school although it was crazy at the time.

 

[lala2332]

i just graduated from law school. I went to a top 100 school and I have NO job, zero prospects of a job, and over 100,000 in debt. I was similar to you in the research/facts/organization part and thought ''oh, law school.'' I am now having to apply to jobs in retail, where I worked before law school, just to have work. I would not consider law school unless you are planning to put off having kids for 5+ years at least. Having babies while in law school just seems impossible to me. I was at the library until all hours of the night, i needed to intern while in school to get real experience and I was earning no money. I think paralegal, or maybe getting the legal librarian degree might be a better alternative. You have a job right now, I would be very hesitant to leave it in the current economy. My fiancee graduated top of the class, law review, insane work experience and his entire class at a very large, very prestigious firm has been deferred until January, others have lost their entire offers from some of the top firms in the country. I would not be willing to risk all the debt, zero job prospects, when I could instead be building toward my future and looking for a different job from the security of having a job.