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Hoping for Old Cut Insight

hayley_cat

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
21
Hi there,

LONG time lurker who vowed to visit you lovely people once marriage was on the table! I hope to lean on your wisdom for engagement ring help.

  • Budget: $5,000 budget for the stone, setting, and tax.
  • Cut: Well-cut OEC or transitional. Major sucker for those chunky, flowery facets.
  • Clarity: Eye clean.
  • Color: I am color sensitive. That said, I know lower color is generally the nature of older cuts, and was only a little bothered by a very white-facing GIA K this weekend.
  • Size: Ideally 6.2 mms or above!
  • Setting: I plan to set in a 6-prong yellow gold solitaire with yellow gold prongs (prefer matchy-matchy).
  • Location/Timeline: We're located in the Midwest of the US and hope to get engaged before October.

I visited a B&M shop this weekend to browse (I'd never seen an old cut in person before) not expecting to like anything, but saw this stone (GIA: 2195395794) and thought it was pretty and was surprised to find an old cut with such a high color. Everything shakes out under budget here, but I know searching for old cuts is bit of art, science, and luck, so feedback on what angles we should be looking for and all suggestions on stones would be greatly appreciated!!

We plan to reach out to Adam at OWD to see if he has anything in his inventory that could work. I've looked at Grace's inventory, Ivy Rose, Pre-Loved forum here, and scour LoupeTroop pretty much hourly, but definitely look forward to your expert input!

Thank you in advance!!
 

Moonie

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
190
Aww that's too bad, would love to see what types of OECs/transitionals you like! Adam is a great resource for sure, and Alex at ParksFineGroup has many beautiful stones at great prices!
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
11,228
EDIT. could you show us pics of stones you do like? That way we can get a sense of what type of cut appeals to you.
 

hayley_cat

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
21
EDIT. could you show us pics of stones you do like? That way we can get a sense of what type of cut appeals to you.
Hi there! Sure can :) Below are listings I've been eyeing. Grace's .65ct stone is gorgeous, but wish it were a little bigger. Ivy and Rose's stone is a definite contender.

 

Moonie

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
190
Hi there! Sure can :) Below are listings I've been eyeing. Grace's .65ct stone is gorgeous, but wish it were a little bigger. Ivy and Rose's stone is a definite contender.

What gorgeous diamonds! Have you seen many old cuts in person? I'm curious because are pretty high in color, and I really do think old cuts face up whiter (in most cases).
 

hayley_cat

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
21
What gorgeous diamonds! Have you seen many old cuts in person? I'm curious because are pretty high in color, and I really do think old cuts face up whiter (in most cases).
Aside from our trip to the store this weekend, I've really only window browsed on PS. I agree with you that I could probably be okay with a lower color as long as it was well cut. The GIA K I saw in person honestly surprised me by how white facing it was. Saw an EGL K though that had pretty faceting but couldn't get past how yellow it looked.
 

Moonie

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
190
Aside from our trip to the store this weekend, I've really only window browsed on PS. I agree with you that I could probably be okay with a lower color as long as it was well cut. The GIA K I saw in person honestly surprised me by how white facing it was. Saw an EGL K though that had pretty faceting but couldn't get past how yellow it looked.
I think it opens up your options a bit more, especially for size! EGL grades way less harsh but GIA Ks for old cuts are pretty white I think! If you're willing to go down in color a bit I'm sure you can get up to 1 ct for your budget. If color is really important though, I think the options above are stunning. Beautiful facets!!
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
11,228
What about any of these? I feel like they have the facet pattern you want. I assume the M will be too warm, but wanted to show it just bc I like the facet pattern so much:



 

hayley_cat

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
21
What about any of these? I feel like they have the facet pattern you want. I assume the M will be too warm, but wanted to show it just bc I like the facet pattern so much:



That EGL I is definitely the size / pattern I'm after!! I remember seeing it on Ivy&Rose and ultimately voted no due to the liberality of EGL with color. Now I'm rethinking. Would you say an EGL I would be comparable to a GIA K?
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
11,228
That EGL I is definitely the size / pattern I'm after!! I remember seeing it on Ivy&Rose and ultimately voted no due to the liberality of EGL with color. Now I'm rethinking. Would you say an EGL I would be comparable to a GIA K?
The EGL I is my favorite facet pattern too. I really don't know about how to compare EGL to GIA. Typically I feel like it's 1-2 grades off in color, but there's no way to be sure about that. Ivy and Rose are super nice, so if I were you I would ask them for a video of it next to a GIA J or GIA K so you can compare color differences with your own eyes.
 

Moonie

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
190
Usually EGL is about 1-2 color ratings off from GIA, and I agree, comparing them side by side is the best way to know! FWIW I compared an OEC I, J, and M, and I couldn't tell too much from face-up. But if you're color sensitive it's kind of fun to see what your comfort level is with old cuts.
 

hayley_cat

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
21
The EGL I is my favorite facet pattern too. I really don't know about how to compare EGL to GIA. Typically I feel like it's 1-2 grades off in color, but there's no way to be sure about that. Ivy and Rose are super nice, so if I were you I would ask them for a video of it next to a GIA J or GIA K so you can compare color differences with your own eyes.
Great call on this! Thank you for your insight - I will reach out to them to ask for this comparison. I will also ask if they could do a side-by-side of this one for good measure: https://ivyandrose.com/products/84c...od-cut-vintage-diamond-6-3mm-old-transitional.
 

hayley_cat

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
21

winnietucker

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,054
You know, I have her listing bookmarked and have been hem hawing about reaching out about the J. She always has the most gorgeous pieces. I know there was some interest about a week ago so I'll reach out to see if this is still available / videos if possible!
Def worth a shot. I inquired a bit ago on some warmer OECs she had. She’s very nice. 100% honest too. What she had wasn’t really going to work for what I wanted and she was straight about it.
 

LittleKite

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2020
Messages
113
Can someone comment on the depth of OEC or hybrid stype? My understanding was that OECs are typically cut deeper as they should have small table and >40 crown angle. The diamond of GIA # 2195395794 has a table size of 58% and a depth of 54%. This is not a typical OEC or hybrid. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

LittleKite

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2020
Messages
113
Hi there! Sure can :) Below are listings I've been eyeing. Grace's .65ct stone is gorgeous, but wish it were a little bigger. Ivy and Rose's stone is a definite contender.

The first stone here is definitely not an OEC or hybrid. Its LGF is 75%. OEC's LGF should be 60% or lower, while circular brilliant's LGF should be 65% or lower.
The other two stones are OEC/hybrid style and they look amazing.
 

Kaycee2018

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 14, 2018
Messages
588
I saw that too @LittleKite and was curious so thanks for putting it out there. I know very little about old cuts (just bought my first one pre-loved from another PSer), so interested to see the responses,
 

foxinsox

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
3,195
The first stone here is definitely not an OEC or hybrid. Its LGF is 75%. OEC's LGF should be 60% or lower, while circular brilliant's LGF should be 65% or lower.
The other two stones are OEC/hybrid style and they look amazing.
I know GIA have a set of values by which they grade a stone to be an OEC or not but realistically there isn't an official set of specific numbers you can use to definitively say something is or isn't an OEC. These were stones being cut by hand in an era where there wasn't a template or ideal standard to cut to. Tolkowsky theorising aside, the market/industry was not homogeneous.
For example my own OEC has a table just bigger than its depth (it's shallow) and no puffy crown. But it's got the flower petals and big flashing facets. Is it still an OEC?

637270
 

LittleKite

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2020
Messages
113
I know GIA have a set of values by which they grade a stone to be an OEC or not but realistically there isn't an official set of specific numbers you can use to definitively say something is or isn't an OEC. These were stones being cut by hand in an era where there wasn't a template or ideal standard to cut to. Tolkowsky theorising aside, the market/industry was not homogeneous.
For example my own OEC has a table just bigger than its depth (it's shallow) and no puffy crown. But it's got the flower petals and big flashing facets. Is it still an OEC?

BADB50C3-0793-4F1A-B9FB-BA1FC50130B3.jpeg
Your stone looks gorgeous! :kiss2:
Flower petals is given by its short LGF, right? 75% LGF will look like arrows when face up (correct me if I am wrong).
To me, LGF is the key difference between MRB and OEC/hybrid. GIA gave specific requirements of LGF values for "circular brilliant" but not table sizes. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
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foxinsox

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
3,195
Your stone looks gorgeous! :kiss2:
Flower petals is given by its short LGF, right? 75% LGF will look like arrows when face up (correct me if I am wrong).
To me, LGF is the key difference between MRB and OEC/hybrid. GIA gave specific requirements of LGF values for "circular brilliant" but not table sizes. Correct me if I am wrong.
I don't know because that's sort of the point I was trying to make =)2
GIA's definition of what constitutes an OEC is just that, their definition.
I was responding to your comment that the first example OP had posted was definitely not an OEC and trying to say that there isn't such a narrow definition of what makes an OEC.

OEC are best judged in person by eye - tools like ASETs are helpful as are measurements but often the cutters managed to squeeze quite surprisingly good light performance out of improbably shaped rough.
And thanks! I took a little punt on it because of how floral it looked even though it wasn't the accepted "ideal" measurements for an OEC. It's paid off as it's got good spread and it's very sparkly and clear even if it's not as 3D in person as the classic high-crown OECs are.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,312
There are couple ways to get "flowery" facets in rounds.
The first is to enlarge the pavilion main facets (arrows). This can be achieved by reducing table %, decreasing PA, and/or shortening LGH%. Most OECs and trannies are cut this way
However, there is another rather unusual way by enlarging the table reflection by increasing PA and table %.

The first stone. Notice 61% Table and 42.2 PA.. This is just a generic GIA VG diamoond, marketed as a OEC/Tranny for those who don't know.

And here is a thread on this topic.

In my book, such stone is not tranny or OEC. It is a completely different breed. In a OEC or tranny, the table reflection is never dominant.
 
Last edited:

LittleKite

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2020
Messages
113
There are couple ways to get "flowery" facets in rounds.
The first is to enlarge the pavilion main facets (arrows). This can be achieved by reducing table %, decreasing PA, and/or shortening LGH%. Most OECs and trannies are cut this way
However, there is another rather unusual way by enlarging the table reflection by increasing PA and table %.

The first stone. Notice 61% Table and 42.2 PA.. This is just a generic GIA VG diamoond, marketed as a OEC/Tranny for those who don't know.

And here is a thread on this topic.

In my book, such stone is not tranny or OEC. It is a completely different breed. In a OEC or tranny, the table reflection is never dominant.
I always learn from your post. You are my expert!
 
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