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Hi, Help!!! I screwed uppppppp

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vinese

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
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Hello all. Hate this to be my first post.

Me and my wife have been looking at getting her a round cut solitaire in the 1.5-2.0 carat range for the past 6 months now. We had shopped around at all the big franchises locally. Zales, Kays, REeds, etc.

Prices seem to have been in the 6k- infinity range. We were complete average diamond novices who knew very little about diamond grading and pricing other than waht we see locally which isn''t much i must say.

Couple weeks ago we went to NYC for our anniversary/ Wife''s birthday. ON the day we were supposed to leave we decided to stay just one more day and go do some shopping.

We were walking down 5th avenue and happened to stop in a small retail store to look at some used Omega watches... while sorting through the watches in the window box my wife spotted a nice looking diamond solitaire.

Guy pulls it out and explains how a client of his had bought it for his wife. He even showed me the old setting it had came out of. It also had two colored stones on each side. He had just put it in a nice Platinum setting that fit my wife perfectly. According to the store owner the guys wife decided she wanted a smaller 1carat ring so the store bought this one back. Stone looked good to the naked eye other than a cloudy spot on one side that was clearly visible if you looked closely with the naked eye.

Wife tries it on. Fits perfect. Guy tells me it is 1.95 carats, SI1 clarity, and an H in color. I know little to nothing of diamond grading so I was depending on his honesty.... Smart move..... He then shows me a appraisal for just over 16k, which seemed reasonable for a stone with those specs. We asked several times if the stone was clarity enhanced because the price seemed low for such a large stone with those specs. Guy assured us no.

He then tells me the list price does some magic work and explains how they are having a 70% off sale. Blah, blah and comes up with a sales price of 4,700 bucks with no sales tax because he would mail the box and rest of the info to my home . That''s when I should have walked out the door. But I am an idiot.....


We went down to the diamond district for a hour or so and asked to see if they had anything similar in size, clarity, color, and price. All were much higher in price or clarity enhanced....

We went back to the motel room to talk it over some more. Wife really wanted it so I called the guy one more time to get the specs to cross reference with diamonds on the internet. AGain the guy tells me SI1, H color, 1.95. Couldn''t find a better deal on the web so I decide to buy it.

We went back to the store. Asked the guy again if it was clarity enhanced. He said 100% not enhanced. He even let my wife write down an agreement on the reciept for us to both sign. This is exactly what she wrote " THIS STONE IS GUARANTEED TO BE NATURAL AND NOT CLARITY ENHANCED IN ANY WAY. A FULL REFUND WILL BE ISSUED IF APPRAISAL FINDS IT IS ENHANCED" I then told the guy we were going to have it appraised again and that if the appraiser says it is clarity enhanced I would want a refund. Guy says sure no problem.


On the way out I ask for the appraisal. He says he would be mailing it to me.....




Ok....

We get home. First thing my Paw in law wants to do is take a look at it under a microscpe..... Whoa I amlost choked. In additon to the cloud that we were able to see with the naked eye. There was also a fracture going across the middle of the table. This had me worried so we took it to an appraiser the next morning.

We let the guy look it over. Didn''t actually get an appraisal. Just let him evaluate the stone. He said it would grade out to an I2-I3 and that he saw a blue/purple flash which was indicative of clarity enhancement. He had a microspe set up with a tv viewer and tried to show us the flash but we were not able to make it out. He also explained that the cut of the diamond was horrible. There is a big natural on one side that actually intrudes into the girdle so it basically looks like the girdle has a chip in it on one side. The girdle is also extremely thick.


We decided to take it to two more appraisers. We didn''t tell them anything about the prior appraisers assessment of the stone and they all said the same exact thing. I2-I3 in clarity, H in color, and Cut was horrible. Stone would appraise for less than we paid.... The last appraiser was actually able to show me the flash under magnifcation. It was a very distinct flash bluish/ purple flash.


I call the guy up.. I tell him very nicely tell him that 3 different appraisers said the stone was clarity enhanced. He asked if they would put it in writing. I said that shouldn''t be a problem. He then tells me that to get it in writing from an appraiser and to send the letter and the stone to him. He would then send the stone to a lab in NYC to see if the results agreed with those of my appraiser.


Bottom line is. We do not want this diamond. It was horribly misrepresented to us before purchase. Wife told him that the clarity was mis represented and now he says that he originally said SI2 instead of SI1 and nothing was in writing. Yet he had an appraisal which he won''t send to us. None of this was in writing . Stupid.......


What shoudl I doooooooo.... I just want my money back.

God I just feel so stupid. I have been researching diamonds non-stop for the past few days. I can honestly say I know much much more about diamonds now, and ways in which a person can be screwed when buying diamonds.


Here are my possible outs that I know of.

1. File dispute with visa.

2. Technically the signed receipt says that a full refund will be given if the appraiser says the stone is clarity enhanced. Not a lab but the appraisers evaluation.

3. Press the issue of him misrepresenting the grading of the stone. I believe jewelers can be off by one grade??? He was off by 3-4. However it is not in writing. I know I will never see an appraisal now that the isssue has arisen

4. He did sell me something in store. Didn''t charge sales tax. Let me walk out with intent of mailing the rest of the box and paperwork on the stone. One appraiser said that is mail fraud??? I''m not sure.

5. Offer to let the guy keep 200 bucks as a token of my stupidity.

Thanks so much for reading through all this crap and sorry for such a long first post. I just have been worrying non stop for the past few days.
 
What about the Better business bureau? Check out this guys reputation there.
 
Give him a bit more of a hard time, mentioning fraud, BBB, etc. and see if he''ll issue a refund Then call VISA if he won''t and file a chargeback because you didn''t get what you paid for.
 
What do you think my chances are with Visa. The guy horribly misrepresented the diamond and the value of it. However I have nothing in writing concerning the grading of the stone.

All I have is the clarity enhancement issue which would have to be sent off to a lab to determine.
 
I would think you would win with VISA and definitely with BBB. Then come back to PS and let the experts help you with a lovely stone!
 
I am not a lawyer, and you may want to contact one to be on the safe side before you do anything. But here''s my 2 cents: I would first contact the business owners and give them a chance to do the right thing. Let them know that you expect them to refund your money per the agreement written (and signed) on the receipt. If they give you a hard time, tell them that you do not feel it necessary to contact the BBB or your lawyer at this time, but will do so if necessary. Give them a chance to live up to their end of it (refund) first, but be firm. Do not engage in a lot of unnecessary arguing about the receipt or the diamond; it''s a wast of your time and the more discussion you have with these people, the more confused this transaction will become. Contact Visa ASAP. Tell them about the signed receipts and the 3 visits to the independent appraisers and that you are contacting the vendor about a refund and that you will be disputing the charge if the business does not refund your money. You may not have known what you should have known about buying a diamond, but you were at least smart enough to use a credit card and not pay by cash!
 
oh man.. what a dreadful situation, I''m so sorry you''re in this mess. Guessed he was a very good salesman. Definitely work with him first to get the refund. Did you see if there was a return period? then if he doesn''t budge, have your credit card company reverse transaction then BBB. oh man, i feel so sick for you, I hope it turns out positive, please do post your updates.
 
Don''t feel too bad. People don''t expect to be cheated, so the shame is on him and not you. But make sure you file a complaint with the State Attorney General. You can do that online. In my state it costs me $75 to file a claim in small claims court. I would be doing that and filing a claim with the Attorney General.

Good luck,

Lisa
 
Spend the $200 you were thinking of giving him on a written appraisal -- it can''t hurt (though it probably won''t help) in your actions with the seller, and you''ll probably need it in your interactions with Visa.
 
Hmmm......in this order:

Call Visa and inform of impending dispute and halt transaction.
Call Salesperson and inform that you have already contacted Visa and your next steps, if he doesnt credit your card, will be to contact BBB, State Attorney''s Office, and file a claim in small claims court.......I would definitely tell him that in each instance you will be mentioning false representation, mail fraud, and no sales tax.......
Follow Sarap''s advice, no dilly dally, no arguing, just matter of fact "this is what is about to happen......"

I think you will be fine, may just have to go thru some bumps to get there.
 
One of the Appraisers who looked at it was GIA certified or a GIA graduate something to that tune. He was absolutely certain it was clarity enhanced.

One of the other appraisers said to send it off to EGL and they would be able to say for sure yes or no. What test would they do that the appraisers wouldn''t other than torching it to burn the filler crap out????



It says very clearly on the bill of sale/receipt that if appraiser says it was clarity enhanced that I am to get a full refund.
 
Hmmm, some expert will have to answer that AGL/EGL clarity question.

Did you notice any signs in the store such as "30 day return policy?" anything like that?

I''d hold off on spending $200 on a written appraisal, I''d try to bluff him into action first......
 
Send stone to lab. Just ask for a an evaluation on the CE issue and nothing else. Get that, send that and the written statement (notized copies off all) from your jeweler to Visa plus the certified mail and delivery confirmation information to prove you have returned the stone to the seller (take pictures of you putting diamond into box, at the post office, closing it, and the final package) and tell them you dispute the charges and that the sale was fraudulent. Take copies (notized) of the same documentation and send to NY attorney general's office and tell Visa you are doing so.

You will be out the price of the lab evaluation and the mail. But ahead in the diamond and experience. Keep all the original documentation for yourself.
 
Date: 6/13/2009 12:24:59 AM
Author: vinese
One of the Appraisers who looked at it was GIA certified or a GIA graduate something to that tune. He was absolutely certain it was clarity enhanced.

One of the other appraisers said to send it off to EGL and they would be able to say for sure yes or no. What test would they do that the appraisers wouldn''t other than torching it to burn the filler crap out????



It says very clearly on the bill of sale/receipt that if appraiser says it was clarity enhanced that I am to get a full refund.
but don''t you want to return regardless of CE or not? becuase like you said earlier that it was a horrible cut and what not.
 
contact VISA and do what they tell you to do.
Then end
 
Date: 6/13/2009 12:40:37 AM
Author: D&T

Date: 6/13/2009 12:24:59 AM
Author: vinese
One of the Appraisers who looked at it was GIA certified or a GIA graduate something to that tune. He was absolutely certain it was clarity enhanced.

One of the other appraisers said to send it off to EGL and they would be able to say for sure yes or no. What test would they do that the appraisers wouldn''t other than torching it to burn the filler crap out????



It says very clearly on the bill of sale/receipt that if appraiser says it was clarity enhanced that I am to get a full refund.
but don''t you want to return regardless of CE or not? becuase like you said earlier that it was a horrible cut and what not.

Yes indeed. Not just because the way it looks either. I honestly worry about the structual integrity of the stone. It has a clevage that goes all the way across the table that looks like it could split the diamond right down the middle. This is kinda hard to spot with a microscope because it is hard to focus on.

I wish I could get a decent pic of the stone. There is a big natural on one side that completely cuts into the girdle. It basically looks like a chip in the girdle area.

Up until a few days ago I thought all diamonds were cut relatively the same, and no idea what a girdle or natural were. Now it is a glaringly obvious.

I was relying on the honesty of a store owner who claimed to have been in business for nearly 20 years on 5th avenue. Honestly he seemed to be a really decent guy and he played us pretty bad.

If I had seen the amount of diamonds then as I have in the past few days I would have called his SI1 a BS in a heartbeat. But he put it all together to make it seem plausible even with the BS appraisal for 16k which would make since if it were and SI1 with a decent cut. I was just stupid and didn''t know. Having the wife drooling all over the place and being rushed by our schedule didn''t help things either.

PROBLEM IS ALL I HAVE IN WRITING IS THAT IT ISN''T CLARITY ENHANCED. My wife confronted him about the SI1 and his story immediately changed to SI2 and that it wasn''t in writing but just his opinon.
 
Date: 6/13/2009 12:45:12 AM
Author: strmrdr
contact VISA and do what they tell you to do.
Then end
Ditto.
 
Date: 6/13/2009 5:01:03 AM
Author: Lorelei
Date: 6/13/2009 12:45:12 AM

Author: strmrdr

contact VISA and do what they tell you to do.

Then end

Ditto.

+1.

Unless you have many years of experience, or are going to one of the small handful of trustworthy vendors that have stores there, the DD is just asking for trouble, esp. so for first timers !
Si1/si2 none of it matters now, because even though you were scammed, at least you had your wits about you to have that bit about the CE put on the receipt - you can pat yourselves on the back for that.

That should be enough to dispute with Visa/MC - do it today, don''t waste your time arguing with the store.
Let your CC company be the mediator if need be. I wouldn''t suggest making threats about fraud/lawyers at this stage - its unnecessary, and will just turn the store further against wanting to help you in any way.

And now, even though you are saying you know heaps more about diamonds than a couple days ago - trust me, you still need to learn alot more before you attempt to purchase again.
2.gif


Hanging around PS for some time, reading the tutorials, asking questions will get you that education, which in turn will get you an *actual deal* on a beautiful diamond.
And tell the wife not to be in such a rush - there are alot of awesome diamonds out there at good prices - you just gotta know where to look.
2.gif
 
Sorry to hear you fell for the used car sales tactics. Good advice from PS''ers. But don''t beat urslf up over this. If my lady was drooling over a rock I too wd have found it hard to keep my mind straight. That''s probably why many of us prefer to do our selection online, with no time pressure and sales pitches thrown at you...
1.gif
 
Date: 6/13/2009 5:14:09 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 6/13/2009 5:01:03 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 6/13/2009 12:45:12 AM

Author: strmrdr

contact VISA and do what they tell you to do.

Then end

Ditto.

+1.
+2

And I''m really sorry this happened to you.
 
I am so sorry. It is heartbreaking to hear stories like this. You aren''t the first and you won''t be the last. Thank goodness you paid for this with a VISA. Call them before you do ANYTHING else!

I also agree with trying to get the vendor to take the ring back or you will do XYZ. But still call VISA NOW if you haven''t already!
 
Date: 6/13/2009 9:31:05 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I am so sorry. It is heartbreaking to hear stories like this. You aren''t the first and you won''t be the last. Thank goodness you paid for this with a VISA. Call them before you do ANYTHING else!


I also agree with trying to get the vendor to take the ring back or you will do XYZ. But still call VISA NOW if you haven''t already!

Reading over these other posts this morning, I have to say I totally agree with them -- Call VISA first; follow their directions to a T (they''ve been through this process a million times, so they are your best ally here). I am so sorry you have to go through this, but please come back with the end to this story and let the experts on this forum help you find a stone that is a stunner!
 
Date: 6/13/2009 12:45:12 AM
Author: strmrdr
contact VISA and do what they tell you to do.
Then end
Ditto!!
 
Date: 6/13/2009 5:14:09 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 6/13/2009 5:01:03 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 6/13/2009 12:45:12 AM

Author: strmrdr

contact VISA and do what they tell you to do.

Then end

Ditto.

+1.

Unless you have many years of experience, or are going to one of the small handful of trustworthy vendors that have stores there, the DD is just asking for trouble, esp. so for first timers !
Si1/si2 none of it matters now, because even though you were scammed, at least you had your wits about you to have that bit about the CE put on the receipt - you can pat yourselves on the back for that.

That should be enough to dispute with Visa/MC - do it today, don''t waste your time arguing with the store.
Let your CC company be the mediator if need be. I wouldn''t suggest making threats about fraud/lawyers at this stage - its unnecessary, and will just turn the store further against wanting to help you in any way.

And now, even though you are saying you know heaps more about diamonds than a couple days ago - trust me, you still need to learn alot more before you attempt to purchase again.
2.gif


Hanging around PS for some time, reading the tutorials, asking questions will get you that education, which in turn will get you an *actual deal* on a beautiful diamond.
And tell the wife not to be in such a rush - there are alot of awesome diamonds out there at good prices - you just gotta know where to look.
2.gif
Yea I have alot to learn. I have a decent grasp of 4 c''s but am still confused about cut. From everything I read on here it seems to be the most important part of a diamond.

After looking around I found this one that is in my price range. It''s EGl certified which I was told is usually off by a grade on the color.

Specs on it were.

1.73 Carat
G Color
SI1
Cut Grade Very good- 7.65- 7.62x4.79mm
Table 56%
Total Depth 62.7%
Crown Height 16%
Pavillion Depth 43%
Girdle Medium Faceted
Polish Very Good
Symmetry VEry Good

Under comments it says:

EGL report says is it was polished with superior precision and craftsmanship and 8hearts and arrows can be viewed at certain angles.

Also says "Tolkowsky Ideal Cut"

Price is 4,919 which is where I want to be price wise.

How is the CUT???? Everything else looks good to me
 
You have it in writing that you’re entitled to a refund if your appraiser says it’s enhanced, you have it in writing from your appraiser that it’s enhanced and he's agreed to accept the return package to be inspected by his own expert. This is a slam dunk. Send him back the stone and call Visa.

. (Note: It doesn’t even matter if his lab agrees about the enhancement. You have met the standard by having it appraised. If he wants to argue that the appraiser is wrong and that he’s been damaged by the appraiser's negligence, he's welcome to sue the appraiser over it. ‘Taint your problem either way.)

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Date: 6/13/2009 8:36:00 PM
Author: vinese
Date: 6/13/2009 5:14:09 AM

Author: arjunajane


Date: 6/13/2009 5:01:03 AM

Author: Lorelei


Date: 6/13/2009 12:45:12 AM


Author: strmrdr


contact VISA and do what they tell you to do.


Then end


Ditto.


+1.


Unless you have many years of experience, or are going to one of the small handful of trustworthy vendors that have stores there, the DD is just asking for trouble, esp. so for first timers !

Si1/si2 none of it matters now, because even though you were scammed, at least you had your wits about you to have that bit about the CE put on the receipt - you can pat yourselves on the back for that.


That should be enough to dispute with Visa/MC - do it today, don''t waste your time arguing with the store.

Let your CC company be the mediator if need be. I wouldn''t suggest making threats about fraud/lawyers at this stage - its unnecessary, and will just turn the store further against wanting to help you in any way.


And now, even though you are saying you know heaps more about diamonds than a couple days ago - trust me, you still need to learn alot more before you attempt to purchase again.
2.gif



Hanging around PS for some time, reading the tutorials, asking questions will get you that education, which in turn will get you an *actual deal* on a beautiful diamond.

And tell the wife not to be in such a rush - there are alot of awesome diamonds out there at good prices - you just gotta know where to look.

2.gif
Yea I have alot to learn. I have a decent grasp of 4 c''s but am still confused about cut. From everything I read on here it seems to be the most important part of a diamond.


After looking around I found this one that is in my price range. It''s EGl certified which I was told is usually off by a grade on the color.


Specs on it were.


1.73 Carat

G Color

SI1

Cut Grade Very good- 7.65- 7.62x4.79mm

Table 56%

Total Depth 62.7%

Crown Height 16%

Pavillion Depth 43%

Girdle Medium Faceted

Polish Very Good

Symmetry VEry Good


Under comments it says:


EGL report says is it was polished with superior precision and craftsmanship and 8hearts and arrows can be viewed at certain angles.


Also says ''Tolkowsky Ideal Cut''


Price is 4,919 which is where I want to be price wise.


How is the CUT???? Everything else looks good to me


Forget about the cut for now. Worry about whether the color and clarity are accurately represented. It''s going
to be more than a grade off. Using the search function above, I couldn''t find a GIA graded J/SI2 for under 6K. So for 5K, do you really think that will be just a grade off to a GIA G/SI1? Not all EGL labs are grade the same. EGL-Israel is notorious for being way off.
 
Vinese - I agree with Whatmeworry about that stone you listed. It''s just not possible at that size and specs for that price, and so its more likely it could be up to 3 grades off on colour, clarity or both.
You need to be looking at GIA or AGS graded stones only, as it takes most of this guesswork out of it for you.

It seems like you are very strongly looking for a *deal* - I have to tell you now, you are not going to find one, I''m sorry.
However, if you decide to shop with one of the recommended PS online vendors, do your research and be realistic about size vs budget, you can potentially buy one of the prettiest diamonds you can find at the fairest prices out there, and usually with strong policies to back it (unlike your friend in the DD.
2.gif
)

If 5k is your budget, you are looking around 1 - 1.3cts in a H&A make diamond, dependant on what colour and clarities you choose. I''m sorry but you just won''t get close to 2ct at 5k, something''s got to give - you''ve seen how that works already.

I would suggest you read the tutorials at Good Old Gold.com - you can learn about the 4 C''s and cut more indepth there in beginners language, they are very helpful. Jon, the proprietor of GOG will also be very helpful with any questions you might have.
Than, when you are ready to start looking at options again (personally I would wait for this mess with this store to be cleaned up first, but that''s your choice),

than contact one of the following for an ideal cut round:

Good old gold
High performance diamonds
Whiteflash
Brian Gavin Diamonds
James Allen

these vendors are all run by very decent people who will be straight with you, they will also happily answer your questions and help you learn. You can give them your budget and your desired specs and they will come back to you with what they have available.
I would also suggest starting a new thread, something like "help me find a diamond" and the cut gurus around here can give you some more advice on whatever you care to ask.

I hope this helps and good luck with Visa
1.gif
 
It''s pretty simple. You''ve got something in writing that you''re entitled to a refund if the diamond is clarity enhanced (smart move on your girlfriend''s part).

Just get something in writing from a qualified appraiser that the diamond is clarity enhanced. Fax that both to the seller and Visa. Have Visa stop the transaction, getting your funds back.

Then I''d send the stone back.

I personally would be hesitant to give them the stone back until you''ve got your money back. They''ve already demonstrated that they are liars and cheats. They''re not likely to change their m.o.

If you need to use an appraiser as an intermediary, many offer this service. Give the appraiser the diamond, with instructions to release it to the seller after your money has been refunded. That way the vendor doesn''t have to worry about you keeping the diamond after getting your refund, yet you don''t give up the only thing you''ve got to show for your $4700.
 
Thanks for posting in regards to the stone. I''m not looking for a deal as much as the right stone. I''m not looking for for an engagement ring. Wife already has a very nice 2ct. set.

She just wants a nice big solitaire. She really wants to be in the 1.5+ range. We would be perfectly happy with a well cut I1 clarity. I''ve seen a few GIA I1 stones that looked great to our eyes.

Color is more tricky I guess. The stone we have now is fine color wise. All the appraisers have graded it as an H. An I or J might would be acceptable if the cut were better though.

Why would EGL be so crappy with there grading???? Are they at least somewhat consistent so as to say a GIA G= EGL I.



It was EGL israel btw.... Not good I guess....

I do find this incredibly odd.

Here is a link to the stone I am talking about
http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=65709463&src=builder

Now here is a stone that weighs the same is graded the same clarity wise. Cut is not as good, and color is not nearly as good. SAME Lab also yet is still more expensive. Something don''t add up......
http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=64581997&src=builder
 
Date: 6/13/2009 10:56:45 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
It''s pretty simple. You''ve got something in writing that you''re entitled to a refund if the diamond is clarity enhanced (smart move on your girlfriend''s part).

Just get something in writing from a qualified appraiser that the diamond is clarity enhanced. Fax that both to the seller and Visa. Have Visa stop the transaction, getting your funds back.

Then I''d send the stone back.

I personally would be hesitant to give them the stone back until you''ve got your money back. They''ve already demonstrated that they are liars and cheats. They''re not likely to change their m.o.

If you need to use an appraiser as an intermediary, many offer this service. Give the appraiser the diamond, with instructions to release it to the seller after your money has been refunded. That way the vendor doesn''t have to worry about you keeping the diamond after getting your refund, yet you don''t give up the only thing you''ve got to show for your $4700.


Hey Rich,

Thanks For posting. Would a lab such as EGL or GIA use any methods to determine if the stone was clarity enhanced that a an appraiser could not????

Thanks,
 
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