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HELZBERG DIAMONDS store...

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diamond326

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guys I went to this store few days ago trying to see their diamond rings.. I decided to play stupid and pretend I don`t know anything about diamonds.. So I spoke to this lady who wanted to sell me a 1.5 carat diamond H color, Vgood CUT and Vs2 clarity for $10k.. Also I wanted to have it set up in PLATINUM setting..so she told me it would be another 1000 for setting it in 2mm platinum sollitaire setting... so the total came up to 11k... I asked why so expensive she told me its BECAUSE HELZBERG has the best diamonds. So i asked how about some discount.. sHE replied.. HELZBERG DIAMONDS doesn`t discount their diamonds unlike other diamonds stores because THEY offer better quality diamonds then others... LOL I was like WOW thats GREAT!! She really wanted to me to apply for their credit card... I said I will go around and see what other stores have to offer... She said I will not find a better deal anywhere else...

GUYS don`t you just love this type of store? I live in NY and I need to buy a diamond ring next month.I am tired of walking around the stores trying to buy something!!! The only decent offer I received was from whitehall jewellers in NJ mall. $6200 for 1 carat princess cut , I color , vs clarity set in a beautiful setting with diamonds on the sides. I have never seen a setting like that.. Those diamonds weren`t set up like always on the left and right side of the diamond but rather on the front and back of the diamond on the side 90 degrees to the diamond..I can`t explain how it looked..

I am looking for a 1.25 carat princess cut diamond Color I , VS2 clarity and VERY GOOD/IDEAL cut with some nice setting for no more then $7000.00 total .. I can`t find a jeweller in NY to have it..
 

Asschman

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Date: 2/25/2005 12
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6:42 AM
Author:diamond326
guys I went to this store few days ago trying to see their diamond rings.. I decided to play stupid and pretend I don`t know anything about diamonds.. So I spoke to this lady who wanted to sell me a 1.5 carat diamond H color, Vgood CUT and Vs2 clarity for $10k.. Also I wanted to have it set up in PLATINUM setting..so she told me it would be another 1000 for setting it in 2mm platinum sollitaire setting... so the total came up to 11k... I asked why so expensive she told me its BECAUSE HELZBERG has the best diamonds. So i asked how about some discount.. sHE replied.. HELZBERG DIAMONDS doesn`t discount their diamonds unlike other diamonds stores because THEY offer better quality diamonds then others... LOL I was like WOW thats GREAT!! She really wanted to me to apply for their credit card... I said I will go around and see what other stores have to offer... She said I will not find a better deal anywhere else...

GUYS don`t you just love this type of store? I live in NY and I need to buy a diamond ring next month.I am tired of walking around the stores trying to buy something!!! The only decent offer I received was from whitehall jewellers in NJ mall. $6200 for 1 carat princess cut , I color , vs clarity set in a beautiful setting with diamonds on the sides. I have never seen a setting like that.. Those diamonds weren`t set up like always on the left and right side of the diamond but rather on the front and back of the diamond on the side 90 degrees to the diamond..I can`t explain how it looked..

I am looking for a 1.25 carat princess cut diamond Color I , VS2 clarity and VERY GOOD/IDEAL cut with some nice setting for no more then $7000.00 total .. I can`t find a jeweller in NY to have it..
Can''t speak to the quality of their cuts, but a quick search of PScope vendors reveals 50+ stones that fit your carat, color, and clarity guidelines. The vast majority of them are under or around 5K. Are you certain that you have to buy a stone at a brick and mortar store, vs. using an online vendor?
 

valeria101

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Date: 2/25/2005 12:6:42 AM
Author:diamond326

[Helzberg] wanted to sell me a 1.5 carat diamond H color, Vgood CUT and Vs2 clarity for $10k.. (with setting) the total came up to 11k...

[...]

The only decent offer I received was from whitehall jewellers in NJ mall. $6200 for 1 carat princess cut , I color , vs clarity set in a beautiful setting with diamonds on the sides.
Something escapes me here.

Helzberg's offer sounds ok-ish. I don't know what they call "very good" cut - but every store has some language like this. If it was AGS0 this would have been at least as good as online (all, as far as I know, of course).

The 1 carat I/VS princess would be about 3k -3.5k. Which leaves half of the $6200 tag for the setting. It had better beed a really nice one !

From these two bits, I guess you are allot more into a nice setting than the diamond in question. This is ok, of course. Just one question: do you know what to get ? If the setting is going to count for a good chunk of the total cost, perhaps it makes sense to let the girl choose one. A temporary solution (= simple temporary setting) would be about $100 and hold diamond on finger. Besides, it definitely is fun to hunt down the perfect engagement ring once the deed is done and there is a diamond to work around. For you, just a safe bet that the resulting ring is right on target.
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It worked before
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pqcollectibles

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There are several Vendors here who physically stock Princess cuts that have been professionally evaluated and chosen for quality and performance. I did a quick check for you and found some viable candidates for you to consider.

http://www.niceice.com/certcopies/gia13275855/index.htm 1.25, H, VVS2 $6195 cash price

http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=7468917 1.35, I, VVS2 $6089

http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=7093574 1.31, I, SI1 $4845

http://www.whiteflash.com/princess/Princess-cut-diamond-1154688.htm# 1.22, H, SI1 $4017 PScope price


I also checked the Good Old Gold website, but they don''t currently have anything in the 1.25 carat range.
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pricescope

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Date: 2/25/2005 8:47:15 AM
Author: crankydave
I decided to play stupid and pretend I don`t know anything about diamonds..

Why?

Dave
Why not? Playing ignorant helps to see who you''re dealing with.
 

JCJD

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I had an interesting experience at our local Helzberg... The salesman didn''t know the difference between pave, bead-set, shared prong, and channel settings, and I had to explain it to him.
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But they all LOVED my e-ring!!!
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denverappraiser

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Date: 2/25/2005 12
6.gif
6:42 AM
Author:diamond326
guys I went to this store few days ago trying to see their diamond rings.. I decided to play stupid and pretend I don`t know anything about diamonds....

Diamond326,

I understand the strategy of asking questions for which you already know the answers in order to gauge the credibility of answers where you don’t know. I do it regularly in my own shopping habits, much to the irritation of my wife. This works reasonably well but there are some serious traps that you should watch out for. Firstly, the conversation you have with the salesperson is usually led by the customer, not the salesman. This means that if you ask about brands and financing when what you really want to hear about is optics, you are likely to be disappointed in the advice you receive. Also bear in mind that the salesepeople will only be willing to devote a limited amount of time to your education. If you spend all of your available time talking about irrelevancies, you have no opportunity to learn anything new.

If you’re looking for education, let them know this and have an actual conversation. Keep your BS filter tuned, of course, but your chances of learning something useful improve greatly in a two way exchange. It still works to ask a few ‘credibility check’ type questions but these actually work better if they understand you are fairly well informed anyway. It makes them more careful about their choice of words. If you are looking for something other than education (like a firm offer), it will go faster and easier if you are as clear as possible about your parameters. Keeping your knowledge a secret does you very little good and can lead to a frustrating experience for everyone involved, especially if what you know to be true is, in fact, incorrect.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
 

RockDoc

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NESSECARY TOOL FOR MAUL SHOPPING...


A PAIR OF GOOD RUNNING SNEAKERS, AND BS REPELLANT SPRAY (think you can get it from Spencer Gifts).

Rockdoc
 

Kaleigh

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RockDoc
Too funny!!!
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denverappraiser

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Date: 2/25/2005 11:32:50 AM
Author: RockDoc
NESSECARY TOOL FOR MAUL SHOPPING...


A PAIR OF GOOD RUNNING SNEAKERS, AND BS REPELLANT SPRAY (think you can get it from Spencer Gifts).

Rockdoc
Sencer Gifts. Hmmm. And where would that store be?
 

codex57

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Date: 2/25/2005 11
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3:55 AM
Author: Pricescope
Date: 2/25/2005 8:47:15 AM

Author: crankydave

I decided to play stupid and pretend I don`t know anything about diamonds..


Why?


Dave

Why not? Playing ignorant helps to see who you''re dealing with.

Exactly. I actually was totally ignorant about diamonds when I went to this one B&M store. But, the guy was great, super patient, andtaught me a lot. Basically everything he told me, I confirmed later through the PS tutorials and stuff. Totally honest guy. B/c of that, I went back and looked at his diamonds b/c I trust the guy.

Now, if I ever need to check out a store, I''ll play dumb to see if I want to shop at a particular store or not based on their honesty.
 

codex57

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Date: 2/25/2005 11:36
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5 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Date: 2/25/2005 11:32:50 AM

Author: RockDoc

NESSECARY TOOL FOR MAUL SHOPPING...



A PAIR OF GOOD RUNNING SNEAKERS, AND BS REPELLANT SPRAY (think you can get it from Spencer Gifts).


Rockdoc

Sencer Gifts. Hmmm. And where would that store be?

Spencer''s is in a lot of mauls. They sell hilarious stuff. It''s not a gag store, altho they have a lot of joke items. It''s like a weird humor gift store.
 

denverappraiser

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Date: 2/25/2005 12
6.gif
0:32 PM
Author: codex57


Spencer''s is in a lot of mauls. They sell hilarious stuff. It''s not a gag store, altho they have a lot of joke items. It''s like a weird humor gift store.
Houston, we have a problem.

If it''s necessary to avoid the malls for lack of appropriate supplies, it will be necessary to find your spray somewhere else. Perhaps they sell it at Walmart, where they always have good advice. Always.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
 

pricescope

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Date: 2/25/2005 12
6.gif
2:24 PM
Author: crankydave



Date: 2/25/2005 11
6.gif
3:55 AM
Author: Pricescope




Date: 2/25/2005 8:47:15 AM
Author: crankydave
I decided to play stupid and pretend I don`t know anything about diamonds..

Why?

Dave
Why not? Playing ignorant helps to see who you're dealing with.
I'm surprised to hear this from you. How about trying to engage in an intelligent conversation? Endorsing playing ignorant is endorsing deception.

Dave
Dave, I'm not endorsing anything
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I merely replied on your question: "Why?".

Please do not attack consumers. They are entitled to ask any questions the way they like. The jewelers should be working for consumers; not other way around.
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Please also avoid inflammatory postings.
 

ammayernyc

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Date: 2/25/2005 2:55:52 PM
Author: crankydave
Dave, I''m not endorsing anything I merely replied on your question: ''Why?''.

My question was directed to the poster. I do however appreciate you taking the time to reply. Encouraging consumers playing ignorant would have perhaps been a better way to phrase my opinion.

Please do not attack consumers. They are entitled to ask any questions the way they like. The jewelers should be working for consumers; not other way around.

I did not attack anyone let alone a consumer. I asked a question ''Why? and then made my opinions known on you encouraging playing ignorant, then Rocdoc''s characterization of a mall. I endorsed the first visit to a ''B&M'' by the poster and then offered an alternative to your endorsement of playing ignorant, namely ''asking''.

Please also avoid inflammatory postings.

I was presenting and discussing my opinions in a civil manner. Inflammatory? Rocdoc''s post was inflammatory. Your post encouraging consumers to play ignorant was inflammatory. The use of the intentional mispelling of the word ''mall'' is inflamatory. Yet again, you chose to single out my post in light of all the others.

This is my honest opinion.

Dave
Not to be inflammatory, but you''re really living up to your name.
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denverappraiser

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I’m with Dave although I hate to hijack diamond326’s thread to discuss the matter. I supposed it’s already done so here goes.


There is a decided tendency in the forum to suggest that a jeweler who decides to rent a space in a convenient shopping mall or jewelers that are owned by large and successful companies are somehow by definition bad. This is simply not the case. Stores in the mall are there because that’s where customers want to go to find stores. They pay big money to be there, they hire large staffs so they can be open long hours and they do all of this because it’s convenient for their customers. Sure, they may not have the right products or services for everyone but no one does. That’s why there are so many different types of stores and they have their own place in the market. Nothing in the original post suggested that either Helzburg or Whitehall behaved badly, had unsatisfactory merchandise, charged unreasonable prices, had uninformed staff or even has unreasonable policies. The only thing that either one of them did was wrong was to set up shop in a location that’s convenient for their customers. Ok, Helzburg doesn’t discount. What’s wrong with that?


Rockdoc, you know better. It was a pretty good joke but you present yourself as an expert on jewelry and the jewelry industry. You shouldn’t be posting such things. As you well know, it’s not the address that makes a store good or bad and you do a disservice to the public to suggest otherwise, even in jest.


Diamond326, please don''t let all this nonsense confuse you. I think your question was actually answered in the above series of posts but please feel free to ask for more details if you wish. You seem to have touched a nerve with some of us but everyone here is still happy to help you find your perfect ring.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
 

IrishEyes

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Messages
1,246
I''ve purchased from Helzberg before. Yes, they are a bit overpriced, but I have a beautiful diamond from them. But I would definitely look around and do comparison shopping, many places have great diamonds for reasonable prices
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codex57

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Date: 2/25/2005 12:21:18 PM
Author: crankydave
Here''s a novel idea, If you''d like to know who you''re dealing with...ask.


Dave

That''d be nice in an ideal world, but unfortunately, many consumers, me included, have run into many jewelers who... for lack of a better term, "stretch the truth." They don''t always lie. It''s usually just being vague, exaggerating, basically acting like a used car salesman. Some do it all the time for every question, some do it selectively.

Now, if those jewelers are allowed to play that way, why can''t the consumers? Why should consumers be at a handicap all the time? By playing dumb when we''re actually decently knowledgeable, we are in a position to tell if a particular jeweler is trustworthy or not.
 

cute330xigrl

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Date: 2/25/2005 8:57
6.gif
5 AM
Author: pqcollectibles
There are several Vendors here who physically stock Princess cuts that have been professionally evaluated and chosen for quality and performance. I did a quick check for you and found some viable candidates for you to consider.

http://www.niceice.com/certcopies/gia13275855/index.htm 1.25, H, VVS2 $6195 cash price

http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=7468917 1.35, I, VVS2 $6089

http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=7093574 1.31, I, SI1 $4845

http://www.whiteflash.com/princess/Princess-cut-diamond-1154688.htm# 1.22, H, SI1 $4017 PScope price


I also checked the Good Old Gold website, but they don''t currently have anything in the 1.25 carat range.
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Diamond326, these are some great finds for that great budget of yours (we got ours from Good Old Gold). I went windowshopping in Bailey Banks just this past weekend at Roosevelt Field Mall. They''re ideals are mucho $$$$$$$$$, so my opinion would be to forget them. PQCollectibles finds are the way to go. Plus I''ve seen nothing but great reviews for all these vendors.
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lostdog

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Why play games on either side of the counter? Why perpetuate distrust? Why make the assumption that a jeweler is "playing that way" right from the start before they even have a chance? This approach is destined for failure and disappointment for both parties.


I think there are a few different things being discussed here.

It seems fairly clear that a half-way knowledgable consumer targeting store by store to see the complete depth of everyone's educational presentation is a waste of time for both sides. Playing completely dumb may be too extreme.


Here's a novel idea, If you'd like to know who you're dealing with...ask.

That's the point. What are you supposed to ask? "Are you honest? Will you be taking advantage of me? Slight advantage or huge advantage? ". The good guys and the not as good guys and the bad guys are all going to claim to be the good guys.

That's exactly what a few well-chosen questions are going to help a consumer figure out for themselves. It's not evil, it's a way of learning who you shouldn't trust. And buying a diamond for most consumers is eventually going to involve a lot of trust on their part.

There's always the caveat that if you think you are asking a question you already know the answer to, but somehow you actually don't know which answers are correct, you might come to an incorrect conclusion about the jeweler.

So the risk to the consumer if they probe the jeweler's conduct is that, as a downside, if the consumer has the wrong "facts", they might unfairly pass over a given jeweler. But as an upside, it should also limit their exposure to the retailers that conversely are least fair to them.

If that's your advice as a jewelry retailer, what is your practice when you buy a car for yourself? Just go in trusting the salesperson to get you the best deal?

Why make the assumption that a jeweler is "playing that way" right from the start before they even have a chance?

It is not assuming they are playing either way. As a consumer I don't know how they are playing and I am trying to figure it out. Option A, ask a few questions first that may give me some clues. Option B, take commission salesperson's word as gospel, buy diamond, have it appraised (or not), hope for the best. So as a diamond retailer, do you suggest Option B primarily?

I would agree that tarring all B&M's or all mall outlets with the same brush isn't appropriate.

"There is a decided tendency in the forum to suggest that a jeweler who decides to rent a space in a convenient shopping mall or jewelers that are owned by large and successful companies are somehow by definition bad. This is simply not the case. Stores in the mall are there because that’s where customers want to go to find stores. They pay big money to be there, they hire large staffs so they can be open long hours and they do all of this because it’s convenient for their customers. Sure, they may not have the right products or services for everyone but no one does. That’s why there are so many different types of stores and they have their own place in the market"

Mall stores are in there to be "convenient" for customers in a sense. They are really there for the traffic. And they do pay for it. And benefit, most likely, too. Why do you think in a typical enclosed mall there are almost always jewelry stores planted on the major "intersections"?

(and who is ultimately paying for that convenience? what choice does the average non-internet consumer have? there's nothing wrong with selling goods at prices people will pay for them. Now is it admirable to sell goods at a high markup with puffed up quaility and then tell consumers they got the best quality at the best price? The mall based diamond economy seems to thrive on limiting information to the consumer and puffing the quality while suggesting the consumer is getting a good deal. Wait that's not enough, a GREAT deal. It was, until recently, a very one-sided wrestling match. Jeweler with the information to understand the economics and the goods, consumer armed with money. (A few of us malcontents are just hung up wondering if that GREAT deal is really true. Too bad for us, we should just get with the program, huh?))

Different terminology might help a little. It's not simply the location that tends to correlate to retail behavior. Corporate/chain versus stand-alone or family ownership tends to suggest certain things. Certainly I can think of non-mall located jewelers who exhibit most of the negative attributes usually assigned as stereotype to the maul-ers. But it's not the bare fact of ownership or location that equates to whatever sins we are talking about, so what is it, then? Coincidence or a pattern?

And since many of the internet diamond consumers in here are likely looking for the kind of thing that PS vendors specialize in, it's easy to let PS Vendor experiences stand in for all on line sources and present a too rosy picture of the entire internet diamond retailing picture, and as a result miss all that might be very wrong with some other internet diamond offering. Generalities easily mislead.

I for one would certainly admit there are some nice, decent B&M's out there. In fact, probably the good guys, regardless of where they sell, are probably the exceptions, unfortunately. Excellence isn't typical, that's why they call it excellence. Especially in this day and age, it's rare for any retailer to have a business model that consists of treating customers well and delivering a good product with true service. Maybe it's rare in every day and age for all I know, but I can only do one at a time.

But while a general condemnation of all mall jewelers maybe doesn't hold water, neither does a blanket defense of them. I find it hard to believe that if you did shop a random sample to see what they are selling and how they are selling it and how they sell it to the less-than-expert, that you would not see a pattern in the results that might, at the very least, displease informed consumers.
 

denverappraiser

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Lostdog,

I wouldn’t begin to defend all mall jewelers. I wouldn’t even defend most of them. It’s the tendency to attack them, and all storefront jewelers as a group that makes me a little cranky.

If someone were to make a post saying all internet merchants were frauds and then defended it with an example or two, there would be a dozen replies within an hour explaining the difference between the good dealers and the bad. It’s not the internet that makes the good ones good any more than it’s the mall that makes the bad dealers bad. We should all be painting with a smaller brush, especially the pros.


I have never been in a town big enough to have a mall that doesn’t also have jewelry stores elsewhere in the community. There’s TONS of choices. Every department store sells jewelry. Every gift shop sells jewelry. Walmart is the biggest selling jeweler in the world, just ahead of the home shopping network. Want to buy online? A quick google search for ‘discount diamonds’ produces 2.7 million hits, Yahoo! Found 3.2M! How many of those would the crew here endorse? My guess is that a few hundred would make the final cut. My TV has entire channels devoted to selling jewelry. There are tupperware style parties, barter clubs, pawn shops and mail order catalogs everywhere. None of this is especially new. No one is forced to shop the mall.

What I’m suggesting is that it’s unfair lump them all together. I think you agree. If you’ve got a problem with a particular store, have at it. There are plenty out there that deserve your spite. By all means, take your business elsewhere and tell your friends about your experiences. It’s what helps the good dealers thrive and drives the deadbeats away. The misspelling of ‘mall’ should be added to the filter that weeds out certain other 4 letter words. It’s gone from being a cute play on words to an unfair attack on your neighbors business.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
 

Iceman

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Joined
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Messages
1,374
Obvious the lady working there use to work at Orange Julius a week before and was flipping hot dogs :)
If you played above her level most of the time they just walk away or get three clowns over there telling you the same thing. Like more then one persons take on it is going to help convince you.

I do the same thing, I let them stay in their own world it helps my business.


Its so bad around the area here with me. If the consumer even utters my name they have been known to take the ring out of the clients hand and lock it back up in the case and walk away!!!! If your educated in the field you work in you dont fear anything.
 

fire&ice

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7,828
There''s a big difference between playing dumb and being dumb. No, a huge difference. Nobody on this forum, that I''m aware of, including me, advocates taking anyone''s word as gospel. Here''s my first suggestion... ''How about trying to engage in an intelligent conversation?'' Isn''t this exactly what you described in Option A?
Often times engaging in intelligent conversation comes only about when you ask about a object/whatever *without* disclosing what you know. I usually know FAR more about an object than the person selling it. I play dumb to find out pertinent information that would not be forthcoming if I was to reveal my knowledge on an item. I glean the information that the person selling the item has - like where it came from, how they acquired it, possible repairs, exposure, time frame -lots of stuff. Another point, if I reveal my knowledge, they get very suspicious about the item. One time, the vendor wouldn''t sell the item.

So, from a consumer point of view, I find it an advantage to playing dumb and/or going in with a clean slate perspective. As a retailer, I try to gauge how much knowledge the consumer may have about an object. I never assume I know more about an object than the interested party.

And, yeah, by saying nothing - one can glean alot about a person''s ethics, level of knowledge and whether they truly want to sell you something you *want* or whether they just want to sell someone something. BIG Dif.

So, I''m not advocating playing dumb to see how little the other person knows; but, it can certainly have it''s advantages as insite.
 

pricescope

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Messages
8,266
Got this via PM...
Just an observation.....re: Helzberg thread.... I DO feel bad for the consumer making the original post, asking for information....my concern is that consumer thinks he/she has "said" the wrong thing!!

Diamond326, you didn''t do anything wrong of course! Every consumer is entitled to ask any questions.

Thank you, David, for expressing your point of view from another side of the counter...
 
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