Help with steep/deep diamond?

[natalie123]

Hello! I'm considering buying a diamond off of a colleague (so I have seen it in person), with the following stats:

• IGI 2.51 F, VS2, Excellent
• Measurements: 8.65x8.67x5.43
• Table: 59%
• Depth: 62.8%
• Crown height: 14.5%
• Crown angle: 36
• Pavillion depth: 44.5%
• Pavillion angle: 41.7
• Girdle: medium to slightly thick (faceted)
• Florescence: None
• IGI report: https://igi.org/verify.php?r=LG350869155

I can buy this stone for $10k, which also avoids a drastic 9% sales tax. However, I'm afraid the light performance is poor based on the steeper pavilion and crown angles. I'm wondering how drastic of a difference this makes? If its light performance is only slightly worse than more standard angles (Ie 34/41) than that's not a huge deal for me, but if it makes the stone significantly worse (say 25% less sparkly or appear smaller), than I'd rather get a slightly smaller stone with a better cut. Please help!

 

[lovedogs]

We can't quantify how much worse this will be compared to traditional options, but it will be worse. I would say significantly worse, and 10K is a large amount of money to get something that isn't great (IMHO).

I would also never buy anything off a friend, because there is zero return policy. You need a return policy for something this expensive. All that on top of the fact that the certificate is not from a highly trusted lab makes it a "no" for me.


EDIT! WAIT! THIS IS NOT A NATURAL DIAMOND! It's a lab grown stone, meaning it's going to be significantly cheaper than a natural stone. You can find much better (and if you'd like lab stones then there is a sub forum for that).

 

[tyty333]

You do know this is a lab grown diamond right?

This thread needs to be moved to the lab grown stones forum.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/forums/laboratory-grown-diamonds-man-made-diamonds-mmd.60/

 

[natalie123]

Moved to that thread, thank you! Though theoretically the calculations behind cut shouldn't differ between LG and natural? Just cost?

 

[lovedogs]

Moved to that thread, thank you! Though theoretically the calculations behind cut shouldn't differ between LG and natural? Just cost?

Nope, dimensions, etc, won't change. But it changes which labs will certify the stone and significantly affects cost.

 

[lovedogs]

My response is the same here as it was in the other forum--I wouldn't buy this one.

I think it'll look significantly worse than a well cut stone. This isn't close to what we recommend in terms of angles (see the HCA score). Anything under 2 has potential, anything over 2 = reject. Sometimes stones in the 2-2.5 range can be considered, but this is pretty bad.

 

[Eellee44]

Hello! I'm considering buying a diamond off of a colleague (so I have seen it in person), with the following stats:

• IGI 2.51 F, VS2, Excellent
• Measurements: 8.65x8.67x5.43
• Table: 59%
• Depth: 62.8%
• Crown height: 14.5%
• Crown angle: 36
• Pavillion depth: 44.5%
• Pavillion angle: 41.7
• Girdle: medium to slightly thick (faceted)
• Florescence: None
• IGI report: https://igi.org/verify.php?r=LG350869155

I can buy this stone for $10k, which also avoids a drastic 9% sales tax. However, I'm afraid the light performance is poor based on the steeper pavilion and crown angles. I'm wondering how drastic of a difference this makes? If its light performance is only slightly worse than more standard angles (Ie 34/41) than that's not a huge deal for me, but if it makes the stone significantly worse (say 25% less sparkly or appear smaller), than I'd rather get a slightly smaller stone with a better cut. Please help!

Have you looked at any others at all to compare?
I would definitely contact a few vendors and see what’s available within your budget.

Are you able to spend some time with it even in this friends company to see whether you like the diamond and how it performs?

The proportions aren’t what’s recommended by PSers but a lot of people like diamonds that aren’t within that range. It just depends whether you’re looking for a near perfect diamond or just something you love. It seems like a good price but then again it’s second hand and I really don’t know what second hand lab diamonds sell for because I’ve never actually come across any ‍ I do know people who have purchased second hand lab diamonds (set in rings) on another site and they honestly picked these up for I’d say nearly half the price of the original purchase.

I was buying online so stayed within the recommendations because I couldn’t see them in person to decide. I felt that was safer.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

@natalie123,
Be aware that lab grown diamonds have just recently started to come on to the market in large numbers. Some sellers are still attempting to market them at some price ratio relative to natural mined diamonds, but they are quickly being seen as an altogether different product and prices can be expected to diverge dramatically over time. Therefore, prices for lab grown today are much higher than they will be in the foreseeable future.

 

[natalie123]

Appreciate the advice! I did compare it to two 2.5 carat stones at Tiffany, and couldn't see a difference in several different lightings (store light, low light, florescent, etc). I'm just curious if it's something I'll only notice while comparing with other stones, or if it'll still perform well and look brilliant despite the deeper cut.

 

[natalie123]

@natalie123,
Be aware that lab grown diamonds have just recently started to come on to the market in large numbers. Some sellers are still attempting to market them at some price ratio relative to natural mined diamonds, but they are quickly being seen as an altogether different product and prices can be expected to diverge dramatically over time. Therefore, prices for lab grown today are much higher than they will be in the foreseeable future.

Totally understand, though I don't see a diamond as an investment (more like a depreciating asset), and if one day I'd like to change it I'll probably have it reset into another piece of jewelry. Natural diamonds are also a poor investment given its resale value will be substantially lower than an appraisal (loosing 30%+ on original purchase price is normal given sales margins on both ends).

With that, is a steep/deep diamond really that terrible in person? Or is it like F vs D color where it's only noticeable to the trained eye and/or in direct comparison with other stones?

Thanks all!!

 

[sledge]

If I put aside the debate about LG vs natural and the economics of the situation, I would not buy this diamond because of the (poor) cut quality.

We strive to purchase stones within ideal parameters. Assuming the lab information is correct, ignoring rounding errors and looking blindly at proportions only we can see this stone is projected to fall somewhere in the fair to good category.

To give you a matrix:

1. Ideal
2. Excellent
3. Very Good
4. Good
5. Fair
6. Poor

 

[the_mother_thing]

We usually suggest rejecting anything with an HCA score higher than ‘2’. This would get a hard-pass from me, and I’m pretty tolerant to some just over a ‘2’ if they perform well.

 

[Dancing Fire]

@natalie123,
Be aware that lab grown diamonds have just recently started to come on to the market in large numbers. Some sellers are still attempting to market them at some price ratio relative to natural mined diamonds, but they are quickly being seen as an altogether different product and prices can be expected to diverge dramatically over time. Therefore, prices for lab grown today are much higher than they will be in the foreseeable future.

Yup, LG diamonds will soon sell for XX dollar per lb, not XX dollar per ct...

 

[lovedogs]

Tiffany isn't known for cut quality either to be honest. I expect you'll notice that it doesn't perfeom well, but obviously can't say for sure. If you love it and you've compared it to other options you can buy it, but I wouldnt.

 

[Eellee44]

Appreciate the advice! I did compare it to two 2.5 carat stones at Tiffany, and couldn't see a difference in several different lightings (store light, low light, florescent, etc). I'm just curious if it's something I'll only notice while comparing with other stones, or if it'll still perform well and look brilliant despite the deeper cut.

But have you had a look online at other lab diamonds?
With a HCA of 5.1 I’m pretty certain everyone here would say keep looking but I’m a newbie myself.
I would probably explore some other lab options but again, if you saw no difference and you loved it, at the end of the day it’s for you.

I found this article helpful when I was trying to understand the relationship between crown angles and Pavillion angles.

https://www.prosumerdiamonds.com/pavilion-depth-table/

Hopefully some experts weigh in and if you tell us budget and what you are after maybe we can offer alternatives too. I personally would not buy it.

 

[sledge]

Yup, LG diamonds will soon sell for XX dollar per lb, not XX dollar per ct...

Haha, yup. If I were interested in LG stones I would not be a buyer in the current market, as things are evolving and prices will flatten.

It reminds me of a time I once bought some stocks knowing a big announcement was coming. I bet on it to be good. It was bad and I had several thousand shares of penny stocks. But hey, at least I had a tax write off for some losses, lol.

 

[the_mother_thing]

@sledge Are you sure you want the post immediately above ‘in writing’? Just sayin’ ...

 

[Wewechew]

@the_mother_thing can they charge you with insider trading if you lose money?

 

[the_mother_thing]

@Wewechew I’m really not sure. I just know I wouldn’t want to find out - either way - because I posted about or even inferred it on a public forum.

 

[sledge]

Thanks for having my six @the_mother_thing. No insider trading involved.

Basically the company made a public announcement at the end of one week they had big news to share early the following week. Looking at past trends, I made (stupid) speculation it was going to be big and I bought in with hopes to see it spike, sell and pat myself on the back. Unfortunately, the big news was the opposite and the bottom dropped out of the stocks before I could dump them. I held onto them thinking they might rebound once they restructured but they never did.

I should have worded this better earlier, as my intent was not to infer such an action occurred.

 

[Dancing Fire]

@the_mother_thing can they charge you with insider trading if you lose money?

Nope not if you lose... Can't charge you if you didn't make $$$.

 

[mwilliamanderson]

It’s going to look great in some lighting and dark in many lighting conditions. It is large and it has high color so there’s that. But honestly as far as cut goes this diamond has nothing going for it and cut determines light return. The table is large and both the crown and pavillion angles are too steep.

 

[Wewechew]

Nope not if you lose... Can't charge you if you didn't make $$$.

Fact? Or Dancing Fire “fact”

 

[tyty333]

Its really not well cut. We cant give you a percentage. What are the chances you could go look at well cut stones (in different lighting conditions)
and compare them with that stone (in different lighting conditions)?

Do you have any up-close pictures you can post?

 

[sledge]

Fact? Or Dancing Fire “fact”

Haha, I think that is @Dancing Fire fact.

Theoretically, you could use insider info to avoid losses as well. Think Martha Stewart. She used non-public data to dump med stocks that were being rejected by the FDA. Regardless of her buy in price, she used the data to jump out before the FDA rejections became public thereby neutralizing any losses. Funny enough, the drug that was rejected in late 2001 by the FDA was later approved by the FDA in 2004 and was used to help treat colon cancer.

But even so, while no dollars was actually received she did avoid loss which technically was "for gain" as she would have sustained greater loss without the inside info. Intereating enough I believe she traded roughly $230k of money in this stock. Decent change to most folks but probably not to a person of her wealth. Also, it was her stock brokers assistant who tossed a tip to the SEC that led to the findings. It's easier to understand the exec's and their families who were dumping millions of $ of stock that made more sense to be dinged.

Regardless, what I've read I understand it to mean the act of using private information with the intent to make personal gain. Key words private, intent and personal gain.

I would agree that unless the SEC received a tip or a person was already on the SEC radar for something else, it would be unlikely the SEC would pursue a low level straight loss situation.

It's still not worth the risk IMO. But then again, it's my conscious that would eat me up way before any legalities. Always been wired that way so I tend to take the harder paths, even when no one is watching because I believe it to be the right thing to do.

 

[OoohShiny]

Yup, LG diamonds will soon sell for XX dollar per lb, not XX dollar per ct...

I wish they would, I need me some bling

 

[OoohShiny]

Totally understand, though I don't see a diamond as an investment (more like a depreciating asset), and if one day I'd like to change it I'll probably have it reset into another piece of jewelry. Natural diamonds are also a poor investment given its resale value will be substantially lower than an appraisal (loosing 30%+ on original purchase price is normal given sales margins on both ends).

With that, is a steep/deep diamond really that terrible in person? Or is it like F vs D color where it's only noticeable to the trained eye and/or in direct comparison with other stones?

Thanks all!!

You can see the different effects of the differing combinations of crown and pavilion angles in terms of H&A images in this excellent table from Serg
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...et-a-diamond-recut.251264/page-2#post-4608145


And in terms of IdealScope images (which are more useful than H&A images because they show light leakage):
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...et-a-diamond-recut.251264/page-3#post-4608900


And also in terms of ASETscope images:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...et-a-diamond-recut.251264/page-3#post-4609401



I am not very good at analysing Round imagery, though, so I'm not sure how that very different appearance to SuperIdeals seen at the 35.7c/41.8p location in those tables will look 'in real life'

 

[the_mother_thing]

Thanks so much for posting those images & links @OoohShiny SUPER helpful!

 

[OoohShiny]

Thanks so much for posting those images & links @OoohShiny SUPER helpful!

No worries - all thanks must go to @Serg for his excellent information and assistance for us noobs!