Help with search parameters for MRB upgrade w/trade in

[giamari23]

Hi All,

So my husband and I are in a place for me to upgrade and I'm finally starting the process. I started with going to my original vendor to see what value they would give me for a trade in. They verified they are willing to give me almost the total back he paid for the diamond back in 2015. Originally I did not have the best experience with them in boston but their NH office has been really good. So I wanted to start there for research purposes.

I had an excellent experience with your recommendations at IDJ and the stone I bought for my mom is the proverbial fire ball, I never stop looking at it, it packs so much punch for 1 carat that I know I definitely want to contact them.

I am in pursuit of an upgrade MRB as close to the presence of 2 carats as I can get. I am willing to trade in my stone, if i go above the 1.5 carats i had that means I'm also in the market for a new setting as well. I've been searching James Allen, my original vendor's site, IDJ's site, Good Old Gold.

Before i start contacting anyone do you guys have recommendations on what information I should definitely have ready to go. For whatever reason i'm just having trouble organizing myself.

I've been trying to find the right stats to use in my search I think last i saw I had been using the following:
epth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

I had this in a general notes folder so I am not sure if these are older values or their are caveats.

If I need to provide any other info let me know. I've been dreaming about doing this and using this community to really do it right this time. If any of this is redundant to previous posts i've made I apologize.

As always thank you for your patience and help.

 

[Lorelei]

Hi Giamari,

The specs you noted I wrote many years ago now as a ' cheat sheet' to form a basis for finding a well cut diamond, they still apply today I believe to get you in the ballpark but there can be some flexibility there depending.

You sound as if you know what you're doing pretty much, I'd say narrow down your colour and clarity specs, presumably, you're going with GIA or AGS grading so that's covered, then the fun can begin starting to search!

Of course if you'd like any help with that, you've only to say the word....

 

[giamari23]

@Lorelei Do you have experience in trade in process for a stone sold by another vendor. My main issue being how much variation is there in trade in values such that I can account for my budget to assume any shifts ?

In this case I’d be bringing an outside EGL USA stone to vendors. I picked the stone in a rush in 2015 (grandmother was sick in hospital) and while it’s beautiful I wanted bigger and better specs for a number of years.

The stone is 1.5 carats ideal cut G SI2 for EGL. My home vendor offered me around 7400 for trade in which is close to what we paid a few years ago. On that assumption budget for the stone is between 13-14k. If I cannot bank on that trade in value at around that number max I can put in is 6500 maybe a little more but I’d have rethink some things.

I had a really go experience with IDJ and pricescope and I’m hoping some sort of magic can happen here.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Lorelei]

@Lorelei Do you have experience in trade in process for a stone sold by another vendor. My main issue being how much variation is there in trade in values such that I can account for my budget to assume any shifts ?

In this case I’d be bringing an outside EGL USA stone to vendors. I picked the stone in a rush in 2015 (grandmother was sick in hospital) and while it’s beautiful I wanted bigger and better specs for a number of years.

The stone is 1.5 carats ideal cut G SI2 for EGL. My home vendor offered me around 7400 for trade in which is close to what we paid a few years ago. On that assumption budget for the stone is between 13-14k. If I cannot bank on that trade in value at around that number max I can put in is 6500 maybe a little more but I’d have rethink some things.

I had a really go experience with IDJ and pricescope and I’m hoping some sort of magic can happen here.

Let me know what you think.

Hi Gia,

Things are still the same to my understanding that IF you are lucky enough to have a vendor accept another seller's stone for trade in, you'll be lucky to get 30-50% back and that's for GIA/ AGS graded diamonds so EGL would be less still sadly, so if the original vendor is prepared to allow you close to what you paid, that might be the way to go if they can call in stones for you to choose from.

That's why the lifetime upgrade policies are so popular. But the numbers you're using as a guide can get you in the ballpark of a well proportioned stone, see if your vendor will stand by his original offer and he might be able to find you a winner from the virtual listings if you give him your parameters.

 

[giamari23]

I thought this might be the answer. I’m going to discuss with IDJ for the hell of it and I’ve been trying to use the stats and HCA ratings to avoid pitfall stones on the original vendor site.

I’m sure like a lot of people I learned a lot more of what I did wrong after being here and given the circumstances I was in at the time.

Nonetheless I’m going to carry on and see the best I can do. Thank your for putting the time into respond and as I find things if you feel like weighing in let me know!

 

[Lorelei]

I thought this might be the answer. I’m going to discuss with IDJ for the hell of it and I’ve been trying to use the stats and HCA ratings to avoid pitfall stones on the original vendor site.

I’m sure like a lot of people I learned a lot more of what I did wrong after being here and given the circumstances I was in at the time.

Nonetheless I’m going to carry on and see the best I can do. Thank your for putting the time into respond and as I find things if you feel like weighing in let me know!

You're most welcome Gia, we've all been there.
Further tips, use the HCA for rejection, then stones that score <2, further evaluate with images if possible. I'll be happy to weigh in as your journey progresses and if you need any help looking, just give us the nod.

 

[giamari23]

@Lorelei awesome. Thank you for the pointer on that (re: HCA scores). i found something yesterday that was in excellent end of things but when I looked at images I wasn't sure how I felt...worst case I guess means i can have them pull a few in and go review.

Also, I just wrote my heart felt proposal to Yekutiel....seriously that man helped me make my mom smile which hasn't happened in years with my grandmother's health. He's awesome.

I'm going to make a list of stones from the vendor's site, there aren't many prospects in bulk but that just might mean this is a slow process which I don't mind compared to the original event.

The other fun thing is if I do manage about 1.5ct (the original stone size) then I have to consider what i'l do about a setting since my original is a halo...and I obv built the look of my wedding set around it.

I will be in touch for sure.

 

[Lorelei]

@Lorelei awesome. Thank you for the pointer on that (re: HCA scores). i found something yesterday that was in excellent end of things but when I looked at images I wasn't sure how I felt...worst case I guess means i can have them pull a few in and go review.

Also, I just wrote my heart felt proposal to Yekutiel....seriously that man helped me make my mom smile which hasn't happened in years with my grandmother's health. He's awesome.

I'm going to make a list of stones from the vendor's site, there aren't many prospects in bulk but that just might mean this is a slow process which I don't mind compared to the original event.

The other fun thing is if I do manage about 1.5ct (the original stone size) then I have to consider what i'l do about a setting since my original is a halo...and I obv built the look of my wedding set around it.

I will be in touch for sure.

Yekutiel is a lovely man and is very well thought of.

It'll be a case of weeding through to find the wheat from the chaff but it can be done absolutely. And yes with the HCA it sounds like you're using it properly and you have a good eye with the images, which is so helpful.

Another thing you can do is ask the search be around GIA Ex cut grade ( be aware of the steep deep leaky combos that can sneak through) and AGS0 and possibly AGS1 cut grades which will get you close to the bullseye for the best performers.

 

[giamari23]

@Lorelei what am i looking for in the steep deep scenario (i.e what factors that tip me off to leakage)
I saw a few places where the stone looked good but the table was a little longer than desirable and couldnt figure if that could still work everything else in its place or its similar enough to the alternative where the table is right but depth is too far long.

 

[Lorelei]

@Lorelei what am i looking for in the steep deep scenario (i.e what factors that tip me off to leakage)
I saw a few places where the stone looked good but the table was a little longer than desirable and couldnt figure if that could still work everything else in its place or its similar enough to the alternative where the table is right but depth is too far long.

A good tool to help you catch these is the HCA Gia, that should weed out the steep deep combos to a point but bear this in mind, there's always a catch!

If a steep deep angle combo ( say GIA 35 CA/ 41 PA) has longer lower girdle facets and the overall cut precision is good, then it might show minor or no discernible leakage, also bear in mind GIA rounding the angle averages which in actual fact might be shallower than stated. So the proof of the pudding is in the image to verify the reality rather than the outline the numbers give. But this is only one scenario, the best way to proceed is this.

HCA first instance, scores <2 = further evaluation, BUT some that score > 2 still might be worth a look on occasion if the stone is a fiery ideal cut for example.

Then an image to show light leakage or lack thereof.

So I'd say try to steer away from pavilion angles that go over 41 degrees and are less than 40.6, especially if partnered with a crown angle of 35 or over. Sometimes a shallower crown can offset a steeper pavilion angle, say 34/41 but it's my personal preference to try to keep pavilions between 40.6 - 41 unless you want to spend extra time carefully evaluating stones that might not look so great on paper, but that's me.

 

[giamari23]

@Lorelei Hi! Going to look at some stones today, I was wondering if you were still interested in weighing in? I'll have some numbers later this afternoon!

 

[giamari23]

@Lorelei I am going back to my vendor this weekend. I'm in a debate with myself over the improving secs at the same size vs increasing size and still improving specs some what. I had an additional question, do you know if its feasible for me to trade up to a gia certed triple x and then try to see if IDJ or another vendor would take it for trade in once on a better certification?

I know for the initial trade in its best to go with the original vendor. But after that is it crazy to consider a multistep trade? If so, I'm debating how much to put down for the initial trade from egl to gia or ags and then how much to hold off to see what can be done at a price scope vendor.

 

[sledge]

For me, the first step you need to resolve is the trade-in issue. Right now, that value is simply unknown and really hampers your ability to upgrade size and/or specs until that issue is resolved. Worst case scenario is you have $6,500 cash. Best case is you have $14,000 with an almost full value trade-in credit.

In reality, you probably have some number between those extremes if you were to sell the stone outright, or get IDJ or another vendor, to agree to do a trade-in with them. For talk purposes, let's just assume $10,000.

Now comes the point where you have $10k of "cash" value to use anywhere, or $14k only at your local jeweler. My gut feeling is the local guy will not sell you a new stone for the same value as IDJ, or others. He will probably try to recoup some of that trade-in value by offering you a higher sales price on the new stone. Effectively, he is decreasing your $14k of buying power. Depending how much he overprices the new stone will ultimately determine how much buying power you really have when you consider the entire picture.

Or maybe he is on the up and up and doesn't overprice, gives you a generous trade-in, will bring in the finest GIA/AGS graded stones and will provide all imagery, etc and time needed for you (and the PS folks) to make a well informed decision. Then you almost have to stay with him.

I definitely would not do some "intermediate trade". Before I did that I'd spend a few hundred and have your EGL stone re-certified with AGS or GIA and then ask IDJ or other vendors for a trade in. Worst case, they say no or offer you a crazy low value. You then either sell outright with your new GIA/AGS cert and gain as much of the $7,400 as possible or you decide to work with that local guy.

Right now your maximum loss exposure is capped at $7,400. Doing an intermediate swap just increases your exposure risk and does not get you closer to your big picture goal.

So really step 1 in this entire ordeal is determining what you will do with the existing stone. I know briefly looking at WF for superideals you can get about a 1.70-1.80ct I SI1 for about $14k. Not sure how those specs sit with you. You can manipulate to a point but thought I'd toss it out there as food for thought.

 

[giamari23]

@sledge THIS IS AMAZING! and exactly the sort of break down thought process I was in need of.Thank you so much for the thorough response. This is exactly what I was looking for someone else to also walk the idea around. I'm going to think on everything you said.

a follow up question; how do you got about the recertification process? So I just contact them directly? Any info on that would help save me the time of research, which I always appreciate...but if not no big deal.

So far the original vendor is holding at around the $7000 value I noted. I am supposed to go back some time this or next week to also look at stones around my carat weight to increase specks. Being a regional B&M store they told me they don't do ASET or Ideal scope images, but I've bought my own scope that should be here next week to attempt to get some info comparable. I've also inquired as any info that might be able to share on light performance.

While this is going on I'm going to look into the recertification point you mentioned and see if that gets me anywhere.
I'm going to think on this more and write more later. Again thank you for all of this, it really helps me organize my process.

For me, the first step you need to resolve is the trade-in issue. Right now, that value is simply unknown and really hampers your ability to upgrade size and/or specs until that issue is resolved. Worst case scenario is you have $6,500 cash. Best case is you have $14,000 with an almost full value trade-in credit.

In reality, you probably have some number between those extremes if you were to sell the stone outright, or get IDJ or another vendor, to agree to do a trade-in with them. For talk purposes, let's just assume $10,000.

Now comes the point where you have $10k of "cash" value to use anywhere, or $14k only at your local jeweler. My gut feeling is the local guy will not sell you a new stone for the same value as IDJ, or others. He will probably try to recoup some of that trade-in value by offering you a higher sales price on the new stone. Effectively, he is decreasing your $14k of buying power. Depending how much he overprices the new stone will ultimately determine how much buying power you really have when you consider the entire picture.

Or maybe he is on the up and up and doesn't overprice, gives you a generous trade-in, will bring in the finest GIA/AGS graded stones and will provide all imagery, etc and time needed for you (and the PS folks) to make a well informed decision. Then you almost have to stay with him.

I definitely would not do some "intermediate trade". Before I did that I'd spend a few hundred and have your EGL stone re-certified with AGS or GIA and then ask IDJ or other vendors for a trade in. Worst case, they say no or offer you a crazy low value. You then either sell outright with your new GIA/AGS cert and gain as much of the $7,400 as possible or you decide to work with that local guy.

Right now your maximum loss exposure is capped at $7,400. Doing an intermediate swap just increases your exposure risk and does not get you closer to your big picture goal.

So really step 1 in this entire ordeal is determining what you will do with the existing stone. I know briefly looking at WF for superideals you can get about a 1.70-1.80ct I SI1 for about $14k. Not sure how those specs sit with you. You can manipulate to a point but thought I'd toss it out there as food for thought.

 

[sledge]

No worries, and glad I could help. I haven't done a re-certification myself so I am not familiar with the details of the process. I have heard of others doing so. I don't want this to come across in a negative manner, but my concern is that because your stone is EGL graded then it may come back as less stellar specs through GIA or AGS.

I am hoping one of the vendors like @Wink or @Texas Leaguer can weigh in on the detailed process as they deal with it more.

Here is GIA's fee schedule. I think it takes about 3 weeks for grading and I believe the stone has to be LOOSE which can problematic for some people.

https://www.gia.edu/doc/GIA_DtoZServices-20171001-USD.pdf

 

[WinkHPD]

Thanks for the shout out Sledge.

The process is pretty simple really. Contact GIA or AGS, and ask them what form(s) need to be filled out and sent with the stone. I suggest AGS if you have reason to believe it might be an AGS 0 cut grade. If it is just nicely cut, then GIA is probably better as GIA Excellent cut grade is a LOT easier to sell than an AGS 2 or lower cut grade.

The other issue that many may have, is getting adequate insurance for their unmounted diamonds.

UPS will only insure mounted goods and FedEx will charge for insurance, but in the small print, they only cover $100 unless you have supplemental insurance. You can get up to $50,000 I believe for registered mail but it may take two to three weeks, or more to arrive, by which time the sender is usually in an outright panic.

For this reason, I suggest that most non professionals go through a jeweler to send in their diamonds to the lab of their choice. Most jewelers will have supplemental insurance that covers shipping through either UPS or FedEx. Depending on how well cut educated the retailer is, he/she should be able to tell you whether your diamond is a great cut or just an average cut. The client will pay the grading fee, shipping and a profit for service to the jeweler involved, but you may find it to be well worth the extra fee for the convenience and security of good insurance during the shipping process.

Wink