Help! Should I return my expensive AGS diamond

[azuredragon]

Hi All,

I'm a Hong Kong based novice here asking for advice on a diamond engagement ring I bought off of James Allen. I had spent a considerable time educating myself about diamonds online, and decided to look for a "superideal" cut that I hoped would reflect light well. I had read that AGS triple ideals were held to a higher cut standard than GIA-3Ex so I focused on that. The diamond I bought is below, and cost roughly USD 14k and the halo ring I got with it was an additional USD 1.8k or so. I initially thought I made a decent choice (the HCA score was 1.2 and the diamond cut estimator website suggests it falls well within both the GIA-3Ex and AGS000 boundaries). I wanted a G color because I read that the central diamond color should match those of the smaller diamonds in a halo ring (which in this case was F-G), and I opted for a VS1 clarity largely because I was worried about some VS2's not being eye-clean, and this particular VS1 seemed only a little bit more expensive than comparable VS2's.

Diamond:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-g-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-5331139

Halo ring:
https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...-edge-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-item-49997

Here's my problem - Now, after I purchased it, a wholesaler friend in the jewellery industry immediately mentioned to me that the AGS certificate is useless in Hong Kong and also is not worth a lot even in the USA, and that I should return it and get a better, cheaper GIA diamond. Another jeweller friend, whom I know independently of the first friend, strongly recommended I stick with GIA, as AGS were often a grade or two worse than GIA in color or clarity, and also suggested I return it if I could. Yes, I realize both friends have a financial incentive to get me to return a diamond and instead buy from them, but I don't think they would tell me what they did regarding GIA vs AGS if there wasn't some truth to it. I've read people say on this board say that GIA and AGS are equal for cut and clarity and others say AGS is a bit more lenient, but I was very shocked to see how negative my friends were on AGS. For what it's worth, when I did get the diamond, it does seem that the center diamond is slightly darker or yellower than the smaller, encircling diamonds.


I am wondering if I made a mistake going for the AGS-diamond? I am thinking about returning it for a cheaper GIA rated triple excellent diamond with similar size and color, and perhaps downgrading clarity to VS2, while looking for something with almost as good of a cut. Before I do that, I just wanted to get an opinion from the pricescope community on whether I overpaid for this diamond or not, and if it's worth returning.

Thanks in advance,
AzureDragon

 

[the_mother_thing]

First off, I would NOT panic here. You have a gorgeous ring with an ideal cut diamond that rivals probably 95% of the diamonds people are walking around with on their fingers/ears/necks. My first question to you is this: did ANY of this worry/concern you when looking at your ring before your ‘friends’ (who do potentially have a financial interest in swaying your opinion) got in your ear? Did the color of the central diamond concern you when you first saw it? Did you notice the difference between the central diamond and the halo melee diamonds? Or did all of this come to fruition after your friends chimed in?

Yes, I too have read that there is speculation AGS *may* be softer on color grading than GIA; however, I’ve also read that AGS is far more strict on diamond cut. Given my personal preference is on cut (I’m not color sensitive/afraid of a little color), I’d be far more inclined to give more weight to an AGS report vs. a GIA. If someone didn’t care about cut (or didn’t care as much about it), and color was their primary/top criterion, then perhaps GIA would be the way to go here.

Another factor to consider is that a G colored diamond that is 1.5cts is going to show more body color than G colored melee diamonds. Your eye can make out what it sees far more easily in a 1.5 ct than it can a .01 ct diamond because there’s more to see of it than there is with a tiny diamond.

I wouldn’t worry about what Hong Kong views as ‘valued’ in terms of GIA/AGS unless you are planning to sell it there for some reason. Now, if you have cultural reasons for preferring a higher color diamond, then that may be reason to consider upgrading the color of the central diamond.

If cultural concerns aren’t an issue, and if it were me, I would keep the diamond & ring you have. It’s beautiful, very well cut based on what we can see/know from the cert, and again is a better performing/cut diamond than 95% of what you will see walking around you every day.

 

[SimoneDi]

You got yourself a gorgeous diamond with beautiful cut propositions and the halo setting also looks lovely! I wouldn’t second guess your decision, unless as @the_mother_thing indicated, a local resale option is important to you or you want a higher colored diamond. Please keep in mind however that small melee stones will always look “whiter”, regardless of the center stone color, as they don’t produce the same large flashes and therefore have a brighter appearance.

 

[Swirl68]

Just because it has an AGS certificate doesn’t mean it can’t have a GIA one as well. Return it and ask them to send it to GIA for grading. You will have pay this cost for the certificate yourself though.

 

[yssie]

First off, I would NOT panic here. You have a gorgeous ring with an ideal cut diamond that rivals probably 95% of the diamonds people are walking around with on their fingers/ears/necks. My first question to you is this: did ANY of this worry/concern you when looking at your ring before your ‘friends’ (who do potentially have a financial interest in swaying your opinion) got in your ear? Did the color of the central diamond concern you when you first saw it? Did you notice the difference between the central diamond and the halo melee diamonds? Or did all of this come to fruition after your friends chimed in?

Yes, I too have read that there is speculation AGS *may* be softer on color grading than GIA; however, I’ve also read that AGS is far more strict on diamond cut. Given my personal preference is on cut (I’m not color sensitive/afraid of a little color), I’d be far more inclined to give more weight to an AGS report vs. a GIA. If someone didn’t care about cut (or didn’t care as much about it), and color was their primary/top criterion, then perhaps GIA would be the way to go here.

Another factor to consider is that a G colored diamond that is 1.5cts is going to show more body color than G colored melee diamonds. Your eye can make out what it sees far more easily in a 1.5 ct than it can a .01 ct diamond because there’s more to see of it than there is with a tiny diamond.

I wouldn’t worry about what Hong Kong views as ‘valued’ in terms of GIA/AGS unless you are planning to sell it there for some reason. Now, if you have cultural reasons for preferring a higher color diamond, then that may be reason to consider upgrading the color of the central diamond.

If cultural concerns aren’t an issue, and if it were me, I would keep the diamond & ring you have. It’s beautiful, very well cut based on what we can see/know from the cert, and again is a better performing/cut diamond than 95% of what you will see walking around you every day.

Agree with all of this. The bolded is especially important here IMO.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

@azuredragon ,
Please take the advice of anyone who might benefit from your returning the diamond with a grain of salt. AGS and GIA are essentially sister organizations and their labs are top tier. The benefit you have with the AGSL light performance grading report is knowing that all-important cut quality is also top tier. You will not know this with a GIA Triple Ex report unless you obtain additional light performance imaging to verify.

You might consider taking the stone to a qualified, independent appraiser who is not connected to the sale to get an objective opinion on the diamond. It would be a mistake to return the diamond on the basis of biased and/or uninformed commentary.

 

[kmoro]

I’m only going to echo what has already been said.

However, I’m curious ... did your friends take a close look at that sparkler? Because it’s going to outperform most of the diamonds that they’ve seen, if not all. I hope you enjoy it! It’s beautiful!

 

[rockysalamander]

I suspect most of the sentiment is because AGS is basically unknown in Hong Kong. Most diamonds in Hong Kong are GIA only. There is also a very traditional "4Cs" only view...with high color and clarity being the primary drivers of "value" and "desirability." Quality of faceting is basically a non-issue in most Asian countries I've visited. Jann Paul is the only "super-ideal" vendor I know of from the region. It may be that you will have difficulty selling an AGS stone in Hong Kong, but you can always obtain a GIA later if the need arises. Since you bought this from JA, the buyer always has the ability to trade it back to them (thereby making the Hong Kong market irrelevant).

In terms of color, if there is a difference, it is really only at the margins. The photo you posted looks like the stone is reflecting back color from a ceiling, shirt or something in the room.

Small melee diamonds ALWAYS look whiter than larger diamonds, so I'm not surprised you see more color in the center than the halo under certain lighting. The diamond is fantastic and will perform exceedingly well. But, if the color bugs you now, it will bug you more later.

 

[HappyNewLife]

you received good advice here. wanted to ask you whether you noticed the tint or darkness in other lighting? I Have an I colored AGS ideal diamond from whiteflash and depending on the lighting, the color of the ceiling/walls and other factors (the color of my shirt, the angle of the sun, etc), my diamond can be a chameleon. It is as white as can be, but can turn dark in bright sunlight. It can look a dingy yellow in my kitchen with the brown cabinets, can lights and tan walls. Just things to consider. Try it out EVERYWHERE. My guess is your ring is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY nicer than anyone will find for you in HK.

 

[lovedogs]

Definitely do *not* take the advice of ppl who have financial interest in your returning the stone . That's a gorgeous stone, and almost certainly better than anything these ppl could find you.

IMHO they are likely coming from a view point of not being familiar with AGS. Ags and gia are both extremely reputable, with AGS being better for assuring an excellent cut (if ags 0). I think the fear of ags being "soft" on color is incorrect. But if it makes you feel better, you can certainly have the stone graded by gia as well. I think you should enjoy the gorgeous stone, and don't return unless *you* are unhappy.

 

[AprilBaby]

I would be interested in what Phoenix has to say.

 

[sledge]

Sorry to hear your friends are showing their bias and getting in your head. Because of Asian cultural preferences for high color and clarity, is it possible they over emphasizing (picking) on the G color and VS1 clarity of your current stone?

The stone you picked is killer. I would not return it.

Here are some facts for you:

• AGS and GIA are both well respected in the USA.
• Both are trusted labs that provide reliable test reports.
• GIA has multiple locations around the globe and consequently more popular internationally & even domestically.
• Popularity is just that -- it does not define "better".
• AGS utilizes a master set of stones procured from GIA to do their color grading.
• Both color and clarity testing is subjective at both labs, as humans perform the testing.
• Due to the subjective nature of the testing, both labs consider 1+/- deviation from color/clarity to be acceptable and within normal standards.
• For a few hundred bucks, you can always send your AGS stone into GIA and have them certify it. The stone will have to removed and sent loose.
• For GIA or AGS certified stones, smaller stones will show less color. So if you stick a 2 carat G next to a 0.25 carat G then the smaller stone will likely look more white.
• Color grades are actually a range meaning you can have high, low, medium or maybe even more variation. The further you go down the color scale (more yellow) the wider this range becomes.

 

[blueMA]

That photo you've posted shows an ideal cut diamond that's reflecting spot lighting. Sometimes it takes getting some used to with a superideal cut diamond looking quite dark and hollow, but try not to confuse that with the actual body color of a diamond being dark. Some of the less well cut (with leakage) or fancy cut diamonds can look whiter under spot lighting/sun in comparison. If you go grocery shopping where there are myriad overhead lights, the diamond will look very bright and breathtaking.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

I'm with everyone else here. In case of a resale, just get it freshly GIA certed et voilà.

 

[JPie]

You picked a beautiful diamond! I agree with what everyone has said so far.

 

[doberman]

Everyone has an opinion, particularly those who are on the possible receiving end of cui bono. They're entitled to their ooinion but that doesn't make it right. Your "wholesaler" friends are ignoring the fact that it's a global market these days. If AGS isn't well known in China that does not mean that it has no value. Any one of the diamond aficionados on this site would pick your diamond over some random GIAXXX. While AGS, like the term "superideal" is known to fewer people than GIA, that's likely to change over time. If you are concerned, send it to GIA, it's not expensive.

 

[bmfang]

If you are willing to have the stone unmounted, GIA in HK should be able to grade it for you.

However, I call BS on your friends. Most GIA graded stones sold in most Asian countries are high colour clarity with absolutely atrocious proportions. Have seen a number of GIA graded E-G VVS stones in HK and China that are only good for two things: colour and clarity. Cut quality left a lot to be desired. Even big chains like Luk Fook and Chow Tai Fook sell high colour-clarity stones with only GIA good-very good cut grades.

I have a sneaking suspicion your friends will get you to buy a GIA XXX but it will very likely be steep-deep rather than the AGS Ideal stone you actually did purchase.

 

[LLJsmom]

If you are a big girl and can appreciate a beautifully sparkly, lively and stunning diamond, ignore the annoying Chinese relatives. (I am Chinese and I'm from HK.) Truth is, at this point, you know more about diamonds than they do. Unless your goal is to buy a diamond for the sole purpose of reselling in the Hong Kong market, you don't NEED a GIA stone. They say, "AGS is blah, blah, blah...can't sell blah, blah, blah...nobody knows...blah, blah, blah..." I have had a LOT of practice tuning out the ignorant.

You know what you want. If they stand to gain from you returning your diamond... Don't live your life to please others. It's your eyes that will look at the diamond all day every day. You know what? Don't even talk to them about it and don't share. It's not even a matter of AGS or GIA. You know that you know better. Ignore those people. You're wasting your time and your breath.

Yes, I have gone diamond "shopping" in HK and the first thing any sales associate says is, "This is the best. It's GIA triple X." At that point, my eyes immediately glaze over and start rolling to the back of my head but I keep my smile pasted on my face and the auto-nod kicks in. Those two sentences are all I need to determine their level of ignorance and desperation to make a sale. I'm done.

Lastly, there was a thread that explained why melee always look whiter than the center stone in a halo. Can someone find that? I think it might have been @yssie that explained that.

 

[thebrady28]

Ask your friends in the industry to provide diamonds which they believe are better.
Put the images up here for PS to look over.

 

[bmfang]

Ask your friends in the industry to provide diamonds which they believe are better.
Put the images up here for PS to look over.

I suspect if you ask OP’s friends to provide IS and ASET imagery for their suggested stones, the usual “GIA XXX is all you need to know” guff that I have heard from quite a number of HK & China jewellery salespeople will be trotted out ...

 

[Dancing Fire]

If you are willing to have the stone unmounted, GIA in HK should be able to grade it for you.

However, I call BS on your friends. Most GIA graded stones sold in most Asian countries are high colour clarity with absolutely atrocious proportions. Have seen a number of GIA graded E-G VVS stones in HK and China that are only good for two things: colour and clarity. Cut quality left a lot to be desired. Even big chains like Luk Fook and Chow Tai Fook sell high colour-clarity stones with only GIA good-very good cut grades.

I have a sneaking suspicion your friends will get you to buy a GIA XXX but it will very likely be steep-deep rather than the AGS Ideal stone you actually did purchase.

Yup, A friend of mine showed me (3) 2+ ct high color/high clarity GIA XXX stones he purchased in HK. PSers here wouldn't touch these 3 stones with a 10' pole.

 

[Katya DXB]

Hi @azuredragon!

I'm gonna be the odd one out here. Whilst I agree with those who said you need to take your friends' advice with a pinch of salt, I personally have reasons to be cautious about consistency of AGS color grading. Much to my disappointment, my AGS super ideal came back from GIA with one color grade lower. I remember seeing a few posters here questioning color of their super ideals, too, so I reckon I might not be the only one.

I hear some are saying one grade difference in color/clarity grade is within norm, but not to me. I mean, I'd be fine with it if I was buying a cheap IGI graded stone from a local dealer. But if I am paying a lot more money for a very expensive branded super ideal diamond, I want to be 100% sure it is what it states, according to the strictest grading standards, which for me is GIA when it comes to color. I agree AGS is stricter on Cut, but to me it doesn't have to be either or. I buy the whole package.

I echo someone who once said on this forum that they wish super ideal vendors would send their stones to GIA since they (the vendors) can provide additional imagery anyways. That would definitely give me more confidence as a buyer. In fact, as I am saying this I remember being once told that CBI send their diamonds to GIA for the HK market.

Just my two pence.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

I’m in Australia and all of the jewellers I have discussed AGS with have been totally ignorant! Here it’s GIA is best - it’s like a sales “branding” they use to convince you their stone is supreme. Many have never even heard of AGS. I chose to have my stone graded by AGS because I believe they are a better lab (I have no intention of reselling my stone). Most Australian consumers have never heard of AGS, only GIA.

You have received excellent advice. A duel certification is the first step to ease your mind before rejecting a killer stone because of speculation.

 

[kathness]

You have a beautiful ring / diamond. I agree with above advice is to GIA certify it if that will make you at peace.

 

[kmoro]

Hi @azuredragon!

I'm gonna be the odd one out here. Whilst I agree with those who said you need to take your friends' advice with a pinch of salt, I personally have reasons to be cautious about consistency of AGS color grading. Much to my disappointment, my AGS super ideal came back from GIA with one color grade lower. I remember seeing a few posters here questioning color of their super ideals, too, so I reckon I might not be the only one.

I hear some are saying one grade difference in color/clarity grade is within norm, but not to me. I mean, I'd be fine with it if I was buying a cheap IGI graded stone from a local dealer. But if I am paying a lot more money for a very expensive branded super ideal diamond, I want to be 100% sure it is what it states, according to the strictest grading standards, which for me is GIA when it comes to color. I agree AGS is stricter on Cut, but to me it doesn't have to be either or. I buy the whole package.

I echo someone who once said on this forum that they wish super ideal vendors would send their stones to GIA since they (the vendors) can provide additional imagery anyways. That would definitely give me more confidence as a buyer. In fact, as I am saying this I remember being once told that CBI send their diamonds to GIA for the HK market.

Just my two pence.

According to the internet, there do seem to be a lot of cases of AGS being a bit softer on color grading ... I think the consensus is about .5 - 1.0 in color grade difference. But also, I’m sure sometimes GIA stones get a lower color grade from AGS (however, internet does not indicate this in any pattern). Color grading is still done by human eyes and depends on the quality of the master set. I don’t know. Both labs are trained the same way. Some of the people mentioning this issue on PS had the stones were reviewed and came back with the same color grade. Another PS member said it happened to them three times (AGS color grade higher than GIA). Personally, I’m not sure if it’s a real problem - always hard to tell with anecdotes.

I do wish AGS would confront this reputation in one way or another. Real or not - it is out there.

I also wish that AGS would report on fluorescence the same way as GIA, especially separating those with none from those with faint. With fluorescence having an effect on price, the more specific GIA grade of the same diamond would cause it to cost less ... maybe not a lot, but still. And then there is the simple issue of preference ... with “negligible,” you have no idea if the stone has fluorescence or not (until you test it).

However, I do believe that cut is king, and I absolutely adore AGS light performance reports. I really appreciate that it is part of the certificate. Without being able to see a diamond before purchasing, or being adept at ASET images, it really provides a lot of reassurance. As I’m in that position, I would only consider AGS for myself.

I guess I can end this ramble with a wish that GIA would begin the same precise measurements and light performance results on their certificates as AGS, lol.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[cmd2014]

If you have seen the ring in person, I think the real question is whether or not you are comfortable with it? Do you think it’s beautiful? Do you want to take it and compare it side by side to a GIA G XXX in store to see what you think, and decide from there? Sometimes that can really clarify things. You have a return window to decide. Do some comparison shopping maybe and then you’ll know.

 

[Katya DXB]

I guess I can end this ramble with a wish that GIA would begin the same precise measurements and light performance results on their certificates as AGS, lol.

I don’t necessarily see it the same way.

If I'm buying a super ideal diamond, it’s not because it has an AGS certificate. I am buying it because of the confidence in the brand. The certificate is just a piece of paper to re-confirm what I already know, and what I've already seen in imagery on their sites, which apart from ASET includes IS, photos, videos etc. As such, with super ideals I don't really need an AGS light performance report. In my opinion, it doesn’t add any value.

In turn, if am not in the market for a super ideal, I would choose a GIA XXX with a certain set of specs. First, I'd have a much wider selection. If you do the default search on the PS search page, you'd get about 19k results and about 50 of them are AGS. Second, it would most likely cost me less. Third, I’d be happier with color and fluo grading. Fourth, I don’t really need a report that would regularly remind me of how imperfect my diamond is.

As a consumer, I have plenty of confidence in the cut quality of certain branded super ideal diamonds, but I am not comfortable with AGS color grading. Which is why I don't think I'd buy another super ideal in the near colorless range with an AGS report. I'd have no issues buying one with a report from GIA though.

 

[SimoneDi]

Sorry to derail, @Katya DXB, if you are comfortable sharing, was the diamond in question the one you purchased from CBI?

 

[the_mother_thing]

As a consumer, I have plenty of confidence in the cut quality of certain branded super ideal diamonds, but I am not comfortable with AGS color grading. Which is why I don't think I'd buy another super ideal in the near colorless range with an AGS report. I'd have no issues buying one with a report from GIA though.

Or you can: 1) buy an AGS super-ideal and get it dual-cert’d by GIA (or perhaps make it a contingency on the purchase) to assure you that you are in fact getting what you are paying for; or, 2) have it appraised by a qualified, independent appraiser to confirm you got what you paid for.

I’m curious - if you bought a GIA XXX, and (once in hand) stumbled upon PS and/or questioned whether the cut was ‘all that and a bag of chips’, and sent it to AGS for confirmation and it came back as a non-ideal cut or even ‘mediocre/average’ cut, would you still be happy with it, or would you also second-guess your purchase because performance-wise, it’s not all that and a bag of chips?

This is where I really think it comes down to individual buyers’ prioritizing their 5-Cs: cut, color, clarity, carat and cost, and executing their search honestly & accordingly. EVERY diamond purchase involves some level of compromise among those 5 Cs ... otherwise, I suspect everyone would be walking around with 5 carat, IF D colored diamonds on their hands.

I’m really curious - given ALL the input to this thread - what @azuredragon (OP) is thinking, given he/she initiated the discussion but hasn’t weighed back in yet.

 

[Katya DXB]

@SimoneDi, yes...

@the_mother_thing
You hit a nail on the head lol. I got my first diamond as a gift five years ago, and it was IGI Good Cut. I knew nothing about diamonds back then and was very happy with it for about six months, up until I found out what IGI Good Cut really means.

I upgraded it 1.5 years later to a GIA XXX. I was super happy with myself, and the diamond of course, until I found out it was a deep steep cut and scored poorly on HCA.

I then upgraded it to my current stone with what I thought were killer specs. I was in love. Then, a few months later, I asked a pro to comment on its IS. The response was, 'it is a nice stone, AGS 000. The pavilion mains are a a little fat. Just enjoy it and don't over analyze'. There was a lot of drama that followed, I'll spare you that lol. But in the end of the day I learned to love and appreciate my imperfectly perfect GIA XXX.

Still, I was curious, and so I purchased a super ideal. I loved everything about it, but the color kept bothering me. When it came back from GIA with a grade lower, I was as disappointed as when I found out my old diamonds were cut poorly.

I feel I am hijacking this thread, so I will wrap it up by repeating what I said earlier - with super ideals, it's not either/or for me. I hear what you say about compromising, I just didn't have a reason to think I'd have to compromise with a super ideal.