help me with these studs please

[mandyd]

These are the 2 diamonds for studs. I was hoping to get H&A but this is about the best I can get in this size. How well cut are they and how close to an H&A? Please help me decide, I have to make a decision by tomorrow, Friday before they go back to the diamond warehouse. Even though they are SI1 the inclusions are on the perimeter.

Diamond 1: 3.03 SI1

Height: 5.707
Crown height: 1.378
Pav depth: 4.008
Table: 5.415
Culet: 0.026
Bezel: 0.321
Bone: 0.393
Valley: 0.199
Polish Symmetry GIA Excellent
AGS 0
Overall Symmetry: Ideal
Fluor: None

Diamond 2: 3.04 SI1

Height: 5.766
Crown height: 1.391
Pav depth: 4.076
Table: 5.254
Culet: 0.026
Bezel: 0.299
Bone: 0.336
Valley: 0.166
Polish Symmetry GIA Excellent
AGS 0
Overall Symmetry: Ideal
Fluor: Faint

 

[mandyd]

Here is the SARIN report on the same.

 

[stci]

6 ct studs? Are you sure about the size? It's really big! Do you have big ears lobes?

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Have you run the Depth% Table% CA and PA through the HCA (under the tools tab in the top right?)

I used the values from the Sarin report (GIA values) and they weren't the best. Sorry

6ct studs are huge! I would be worried that they would be too heavy maybe? (i don't know though). Is there a reason you are after 6ct studs? Maybe if you went a bit smaller you could still end up with some awesome H&A diamonds within your budget?

Just a thought.

 

[Phoenix]

I totally could rock 3ct each studs, so I say no such thing as too big, ha ha!! , though I agree with the other posters that the cut of these 2 stones is not the best (for eg. crown and/ or pavillion a bit too deep).

It's really a personal decision. I have a friend who has very-good-but-not-ideal-cut 3ct each earrings and they're AMAZING!! I've gone smaller myself for the best cut (and of course to save some $$$ too), but I could totally see someone else doing that, to get over the 3ct mark.

 

[Phoenix]

ETA: I remember now some of your other jewellery. You have some significant pieces there. I really can see why you'd want 3ct each earrings.

If you really don't mind not having H&A stones (and in fact for 3ct each, I may not require H&A either, and if it's within the right price range), I'd say "GO FOR IT"!!

Pls come back and show pics!!

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

ETA: I remember now some of your other jewellery. You have some significant pieces there. I really can see why you'd want 3ct each earrings.

If you really don't mind not having H&A stones (and in fact for 3ct each, I may not require H&A either, and if it's within the right price range), I'd say "GO FOR IT"!!

Pls come back and show pics!!

well if that is the case go for it! and yes, please post pics.. i would LOVE to see what 3ct in each ear looks like!!!

 

[mandyd]

They are AGS 0 and GIA Excellent for Polish and Symmetry. Ideal Light Performance and Premium Optical Symmetry. They look spectacular. The jeweller is very reputable and the price is upwards of $65K, which seems to be in the range. I know it is a lot of money but I have been looking for a 6ct matching pair with great opticals for well over a year now in 3 countries, so it's not an impulse buy! If I could have H&A's I would in a heartbeat but the sad truth is they don't exist in that size, forget about finding a pair. And this is as close to great optics in a pair, I have seen in over a year.

For the questions about size, well I like statement jewellery. I tried a 4ct pair for about a week and I returned them. They were simply not special enough for me, what can I say! For me size certainly matters but I like quality and beauty too!

I am an Indian and by virtue of that we have a special relationship with jewellery. We start wearing it almost as soon as we are born and every occassion is an excuse to buy jewellery - festivals, birthdays, achievements - anything you can think of. All of this so that we have an envious collection by the time we get married and it continues during one's entire married life as this is your nest egg in case of a disaster. The world has changed but the traditions linger on....

For those of you who missed my collection, here it is. Some of it is 3-4 pages so be sure to see the lot! Enjoy! I will post my 6cts studs when they arrive, as well as another new piece.

show-me-the-ring/back-from-india-again-t136732.html

show-me-the-ring/back-from-india-t84821.html

show-me-the-ring/3-42-h-a-cushion-square-t47723.html

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Thanks for replying btiger.

I see what you mean about the cuts of stones that size. I went to have a look around at the online inventory of a few vendors and you are right, none of the 3ct stones i put through the HCA scored better than a 3. Maybe it is something about the size of the stones, i don't know, i have never had the need to look for anything so big! (Lucky you )

Thank you also for taking to the time to tell us about jewelry traditions and your family, it sounds very interesting (and again, lucky you!) I am now off to take a look at your jewelry collection and i can't wait to see these 6cwt studs on your ears!


ETA: I just had a look and yes, you definately need 6ctw studs! Your collection is amazing and your studs are going to be amazing too. Make sure you post pictures when you have them!

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

ok, so i have seen the video of what i *think* are your studs and all i can say is wow!! They are absolutely incredible. Their light performance is just amazing.

I wont post the link since you never mentioned the vendor and i don't want to intrude, I just wanted to say that you have definately made the right decision if these are in fact your studs, but surely there can't be too sets of 6ct studs @ 3.03 and 3.04 out there at the moment?

 

[tyty333]

ok, so i have seen the video of what i *think* are your studs and all i can say is wow!! They are absolutely incredible. Their light performance is just amazing.

I wont post the link since you never mentioned the vendor and i don't want to intrude, I just wanted to say that you have definately made the right decision if these are in fact your studs, but surely there can't be too sets of 6ct studs @ 3.03 and 3.04 out there at the moment?

I think I saw the video too *gasp*! They look lovely and they definitly match very well. They would certainly be close
enough to H&A for me. I think you should get them!

BTW - I went back through your old threads and was in awe of your collection. I must go back and spend more time
reading all your post. You really seem to enjoy your jewelry and I like the idea that when you're tired of it you can
easily (and fairly cheaply) have it made into a beautiful new piece!

Hope to see pics of your new earrings soon!

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Can anyone expain how these two stones can score AGS0 and GIA xxx Ideal light performance, premium optical symetry and obviously look like little balls of fire, yet score so poorly on the HCA?

I know that the HCA is supposed to be used as a rejection tool and all stones scoring under 2 should be considered, but when a stone scores over 3 and only comes up with 'good' on the HCA and 'should' be rejected, but then actually has the performance of the stones above, why is this?

I understand that the HCA tool is not the 'be all and end all' but can anyone explain how this happens?

ETA and can anyone explain why you don't get H&A's in 3ct + sized stones?

 

[stci]

They are AGS 0 and GIA Excellent for Polish and Symmetry. Ideal Light Performance and Premium Optical Symmetry. They look spectacular. The jeweller is very reputable and the price is upwards of $65K, which seems to be in the range. I know it is a lot of money but I have been looking for a 6ct matching pair with great opticals for well over a year now in 3 countries, so it's not an impulse buy! If I could have H&A's I would in a heartbeat but the sad truth is they don't exist in that size, forget about finding a pair. And this is as close to great optics in a pair, I have seen in over a year.

For the questions about size, well I like statement jewellery. I tried a 4ct pair for about a week and I returned them. They were simply not special enough for me, what can I say! For me size certainly matters but I like quality and beauty too!

I am an Indian and by virtue of that we have a special relationship with jewellery. We start wearing it almost as soon as we are born and every occassion is an excuse to buy jewellery - festivals, birthdays, achievements - anything you can think of. All of this so that we have an envious collection by the time we get married and it continues during one's entire married life as this is your nest egg in case of a disaster. The world has changed but the traditions linger on....

For those of you who missed my collection, here it is. Some of it is 3-4 pages so be sure to see the lot! Enjoy! I will post my 6cts studs when they arrive, as well as another new piece.

show-me-the-ring/back-from-india-again-t136732.html

show-me-the-ring/back-from-india-t84821.html

show-me-the-ring/3-42-h-a-cushion-square-t47723.html

I understand better now! And I have to say you are lucky! I would like to have all those beauties! Wear them in good health!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I realize there may be an issue with staying above the 3 ct. mark, but if it were me, I'd probably get Brian Gavin to give a quote on recutting them just a little to get them to be top cut quality.

Can't wait to see them! I think I should adopt your traditions!

 

[stone-cold11]

Can anyone expain how these two stones can score AGS0 and GIA xxx Ideal light performance, premium optical symetry and obviously look like little balls of fire, yet score so poorly on the HCA?

I know that the HCA is supposed to be used as a rejection tool and all stones scoring under 2 should be considered, but when a stone scores over 3 and only comes up with 'good' on the HCA and 'should' be rejected, but then actually has the performance of the stones above, why is this?

I understand that the HCA tool is not the 'be all and end all' but can anyone explain how this happens?

ETA and can anyone explain why you don't get H&A's in 3ct + sized stones?

Larger lower half and the averaging (both labs) and rounding of numbers (GIA much larger steps) combine to make it worse than it look.

The AGS stone has no leakage in the ASET, even though it scored worse on the HCA than the GIA stone, mainly due to the larger lower half. The GIA has slight leakage, if you adjust for the tilt of the stone in the ASET.

You can get H&A in larger 3+ ct size, just that do you want to or not as the premium associated with a H&A is not that significant compared to the $/carat. Garry has seen a 50c H&A D stone in the process of being cut, check out his youtube channel. Also, some do not like the over large virtual facets pattern of a H&A in larger stones, so splintery, off symm facets make for smaller virtual facets.

 

[mandyd]

Yes, the stones are from Jonathan at GOG as shown in his video http://www.vimeo.com/14889257. I am having them custom mounted in 18K gold with 4 prong Martini setting with alpha backs so it is taking a little longer than usual but I should have them next week for sure.

As for the availability of such stones you can hear Jonathan in the video saying what a rare find these are and comparing them to needles in a haystack! I am not saying that you cannot find H&A's in larger 3ct+ stones, my 3.42 ct ring is one such stone but it took me 6 months to find. I love the way my ring looks, it's brilliance can't be beat, and so far I have never met anyone who did not like my ring, splintery facets or not and the studs won't make anyone turn away in disgust either! Garry's video of the 50ct H&A D stone is surely a rare piece. What I am saying with confidence is that if you could get a PAIR of H&A's in 3ct stones in I colour and above, I would have found them in the 1.5 yrs that I have been looking in 3 countries: US, India and Israel. At one time we contemplated buying them one by one if we could not find a pair but we vetoed that idea as being unrealistic. Then Jonathan suggested we custom cut them and he was looking for the rough stones when he grabbed this pair as soon as it appeared on the market. I know this because all my other contacts told me that the stones I was looking for had been sold in minutes! Even though these are not H&A's they are pretty close and Jonathan said they looked so good that it would not be worth my while to have them custom cut and I agree.

 

[bright&shiny]

I think they look fantastic ... and I'm also intrigued by their performance - which is fantastic - despite the unpromising HCA results. If I were in your enviable position, I'd go with these in a second I hope you will post photos of the finished products! Congratulations!!!!

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Can anyone expain how these two stones can score AGS0 and GIA xxx Ideal light performance, premium optical symetry and obviously look like little balls of fire, yet score so poorly on the HCA?

I know that the HCA is supposed to be used as a rejection tool and all stones scoring under 2 should be considered, but when a stone scores over 3 and only comes up with 'good' on the HCA and 'should' be rejected, but then actually has the performance of the stones above, why is this?

I understand that the HCA tool is not the 'be all and end all' but can anyone explain how this happens?

ETA and can anyone explain why you don't get H&A's in 3ct + sized stones?

Larger lower half and the averaging (both labs) and rounding of numbers (GIA much larger steps) combine to make it worse than it look.

The AGS stone has no leakage in the ASET, even though it scored worse on the HCA than the GIA stone, mainly due to the larger lower half. The GIA has slight leakage, if you adjust for the tilt of the stone in the ASET.

You can get H&A in larger 3+ ct size, just that do you want to or not as the premium associated with a H&A is not that significant compared to the $/carat. Garry has seen a 50c H&A D stone in the process of being cut, check out his youtube channel. Also, some do not like the over large virtual facets pattern of a H&A in larger stones, so splintery, off symm facets make for smaller virtual facets.

Thank you for explaining that Stone! Much appreciated.

btiger, i am checking SMTB nearly every day in anticipation of your thread. They are truly beautiful and I cant wait to see your ear shots!!

 

[Phoenix]

Good Lord, those are BLINDING !! I can't wait to see more pics, esp earshots!!

By the way, I saw an 4.68ct E VS2 yesterday in a local store which had specs that would fail the HCA test, but OMG, it was absolutely STUNNING!!! SPARKLES everywhere!! I was almost blinded!!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Can anyone expain how these two stones can score AGS0 and GIA xxx Ideal light performance, premium optical symetry and obviously look like little balls of fire, yet score so poorly on the HCA?

I know that the HCA is supposed to be used as a rejection tool and all stones scoring under 2 should be considered, but when a stone scores over 3 and only comes up with 'good' on the HCA and 'should' be rejected, but then actually has the performance of the stones above, why is this?

I understand that the HCA tool is not the 'be all and end all' but can anyone explain how this happens?

ETA and can anyone explain why you don't get H&A's in 3ct + sized stones?

Both stones are painted Hawaii, and that lowers the angles of some facet sets which are not measured or inputted to HCA. So it is possible the stones ASET's show little leakage even with those proportions.

Tiger you should clean these frequently because they will dull off with dirt more than lower HCA scoring stones.

 

[Rhino]

Hi Hawaii,

Just to add to Garry's statement since it has instilled some fear in Tiger now.

Garry is correct. There is a faint degree of painting which elimaintes leakage and is a positive.

The truth is if you were to take all of the round diamonds in the world and measure them on a Helium or Sarin DiaMension machine (both of which we possess) the greater majority of them (I'd venture to say in the high 90% range) have some form of painting or digging (ie. anything other than 0.0 degrees on both crown and pavilion). With the reports we generate and with the imagery we provide a research gemologist familiar with optical sciences can make deductions (as Garry has) regarding a particular gemstone.

On a practical level, if there is something truly wrong with the diamonds that would cause them to take a hit in light performance, I myself or a member of our staff (whoever is serving the client) would alert the client and make them aware of it if it does not meet top requirements from the most conservative labs (GIA/AGS).

Considering most diamonds are painted or dug to some degree, the key question on any round diamond, at least with regards to our lab is "Is this diamond painted or dug enough to be disqualified from a GIA Excellent or an AGS Ideal?

The answer in both cases regarding both of these diamodns is a resounding no. Both of these diamonds match and both of these diamonds have light performance factors that fall in the zenith of the GIA Ex & AGS Ideal zone and are not painted to any degree that causes them to take a hit in either cut grading system. This is a rare find.

Also, these diamonds do not have to be cleaned any more often than any other ideal cut or Hearts & Arrows diamond since there are Hearts and Arrows diamonds that are painted far more than the two diamonds in this thread.

As to why they are not H&A's ... they simply do not exist in this exact clarity, color and price point. I've been looking for a matched pair to meet all her criteria now for quite some time and it is difficult enough just trying to locate a matched pair that fall in the zenith of the GIA Ex/AGS ideal zone for light performance much less picture perfect H&A. If it was just a matter of finding two standard GIA Ex's this search would have been completed a long time ago.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Rhino I said the painting helps. It reduces the leakage.

 

[bright&shiny]

Rhino - thank you for the explanation. It is always great to hear from you & to learn

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Hi Hawaii,

Just to add to Garry's statement since it has instilled some fear in Tiger now.

Garry is correct. There is a faint degree of painting which elimaintes leakage and is a positive.

The truth is if you were to take all of the round diamonds in the world and measure them on a Helium or Sarin DiaMension machine (both of which we possess) the greater majority of them (I'd venture to say in the high 90% range) have some form of painting or digging (ie. anything other than 0.0 degrees on both crown and pavilion). With the reports we generate and with the imagery we provide a research gemologist familiar with optical sciences can make deductions (as Garry has) regarding a particular gemstone.

On a practical level, if there is something truly wrong with the diamonds that would cause them to take a hit in light performance, I myself or a member of our staff (whoever is serving the client) would alert the client and make them aware of it if it does not meet top requirements from the most conservative labs (GIA/AGS).

Considering most diamonds are painted or dug to some degree, the key question on any round diamond, at least with regards to our lab is "Is this diamond painted or dug enough to be disqualified from a GIA Excellent or an AGS Ideal?

The answer in both cases regarding both of these diamodns is a resounding no. Both of these diamonds match and both of these diamonds have light performance factors that fall in the zenith of the GIA Ex & AGS Ideal zone and are not painted to any degree that causes them to take a hit in either cut grading system. This is a rare find.

Also, these diamonds do not have to be cleaned any more often than any other ideal cut or Hearts & Arrows diamond since there are Hearts and Arrows diamonds that are painted far more than the two diamonds in this thread.

As to why they are not H&A's ... they simply do not exist in this exact clarity, color and price point. I've been looking for a matched pair to meet all her criteria now for quite some time and it is difficult enough just trying to locate a matched pair that fall in the zenith of the GIA Ex/AGS ideal zone for light performance much less picture perfect H&A. If it was just a matter of finding two standard GIA Ex's this search would have been completed a long time ago.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,

Thank you Garry and Rhino.

I went and brushed up on my painting skills for anyone who is interested..

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds


Rhino, I did not mean any disrespect when I asked my question about these stones. It really was just plain old curiosity that made me want to know why these stones were obviously so awesome yet scored poorly on the HCA, it makes me wonder exactly how many other stones I have disregarded in the past after running the numbers, especially in this size. But as you said, these two stones are a rare find and maybe that's what also sparked the curiosity.

I have no doubt that a reputable vendor like yourself would alert a client to any problems with light performance and of course once i knew the stones were in your possession when I stumbled upon the video you made I had absolutely no doubt in my mind as to how wonderful they were. I'm pretty sure it took me a few minutes to lift my jaw from the floor.

If I am every lucky enough to be in the market for a 3ct+ stone I will be sure to come straight to GOG for your help

btiger, please don't be worried! The video speaks for itself and i am sure you are going to be amazed by these babies when you finally get them.

Thanks again, it is great to learn new things about diamonds

 

[mandyd]

Here are the 6.07 ct beauties! Also posted on SMTB.

 

[yssie]

 

[antelope1]

They're so white and bright! Congratulations!