Help me understand Ideal cuts vs ACA, H&A, etc.

[vr4_rider]

Hi, guys! I'm new here and I'm glad I found this place. I'm looking for a diamond ring for the special occasion. However, I am soooo confused on what "Ideal" cut is. Of course I would like to get the best (within my budget) for my special lady.

I have been browsing James Allen, Blue Nile, Whiteflash and all of them have cuts above "Ideal". What exactly is True Hearts, Signature Ideal, and A Cut Above? I know all of these have "Hearts and Arrows" pattern. Are these special cuts even certified by any labs?

Here is what I would like:
Shape: Round (and Brilliant--with the 57 or 58 facets)
Cut: Ideal
Color: H or better
Clarity: SI1 or better
Carat: 2.25 or bigger
Ring setting: http://www.tiffany.com/Engagement/Item.aspx?GroupSKU=GRP10018&SelectedSKU=23660938
Price is between 30-40k for diamond and e-ring.

I just want an AGS Ideal cut diamond, with AGS0 Ideal polish, AGSO Ideal symmetry, and AGSO Ideal light performance.

So, how does what I want (Ideal cut, Ideal polish, Ideal symmetry, (and if it matters) Ideal light performance) different than True Hearts, Signiture Ideal, or A Cut Above?

Please help me understand. I was told so many times that Ideal cuts with Ideal/Ideal polish/symmetry is the best. So how can there be something better than the best?

Thank you and I'm so excited to hear what you guys have to say.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

WhiteFlash ACA's, some True Hearts, and other signature ideal cut stones from certain vendors are AGS Ideal cut stones (and sometimes GIA Excellent cut) that are the very top cut quality...they will display close to perfectly cut hearts and arrows. That is not the case of all ideal cut stones, but I would say that most ideal cut stones will be very nice stones!

I have ACA earrings and they are gorgeous. I do recommend ACA's and other H&A stones for the person who really wants the "best" cut stones. But others are totally happy with AGS Ideal cut or GIA excellent stones.

I'd probably have Victor Canera make that particular setting.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2696792.htm ($27,630 with pricescope/wire discount)

 

[vr4_rider]

Hey, diamondseeker. Thanks for responding.

So let me get this right. I can have a AGS ideal cut, polish, symmery, and light performance, but it may not be at the same quality as a ACA, True Hearts, or Hearts on Fire diamond?

Let's say I have 100 red apples, but not all are equally red--some are dull and some are bright. But, the reddest red apple would be like the vendors claim that their hearts and arrows diamonds are 1% of ideal cut diamonds?

 

[vr4_rider]

And I have to say, the scope images of the ACA diamond you just sent me is way better than the True Hearts diamond from James Allen.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

And I have to say, the scope images of the ACA diamond you just sent me is way better than the True Hearts diamond from James Allen.

Sometimes it is just photograph quality, and other times there is a true difference in cut quality. I think that WF and a couple of others are more strict with their qualifications for hearts and arrows than some others.

You said: "So let me get this right. I can have a AGS ideal cut, polish, symmetry, and light performance, but it may not be at the same quality as a ACA, True Hearts, or Hearts on Fire diamond?"

Correct. Hearts on Fire is generally priced higher than the others, however.

I am trying to think of an analogy that works a little better than the apples.

 

[vr4_rider]

haha, please do! I need a basic understanding on what sets these different "ideal" cuts apart from one another so I can make my decision

Thanks for your help so far.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Okay, maybe let's take a basic model Porsche and one with a higher horsepower engine. They look pretty much alike, but those who value best performance may opt to spend more to get the better engine. The one with the premium engine sells for a little more, but they are getting the top Porsche available. The engine matters to a true sports car enthusiast. A H&A diamond matters to people who want the satisfaction of having "the best". Plus vendors such as WF selling them do have a liberal upgrade policy in case you ever want to upgrade size, color, etc.

 

[m-2-b]

I agree w/ everything DS has posted already. Really love the WF diamond she referenced! I would use Victor Canera to recreate your perfect hand forged setting. He has a slightly similar design on his website, but he can make anything to your specifications since it would be custom:

http://www.victorcanera.com/jewelry/engagement-rings/old-european-cut-diamond-in-bezel-halo.html

 

[vr4_rider]

Thanks for the replies, DS2006 and mom2boys. I like the analogy with the Porsche. But let me see if I can understand it on my own...

Since not all AGS ideal cut diamonds with ideal/ideal/ideal pol/sym/light performance are the same (due to error and variations in the cutting whether by hand or by machine), there will be 1% that will be selected to be the true H&A because of their top level of idealness. The rest of the ideal cuts will be just considered AGS Ideal cut. Would that be right in understanding this?

Labs such as AGS grade cuts, but does any lab grade H&A diamonds, such as the WF ACA?

I think I am going to stay away from BN, and will more than likely buy the diamond you suggested me, DS2006. Thank you! It's nice I'm not alone in my search

What are people's thoughts about the side diamonds and halo diamonds? How do those usually come? I want something in near brilliance and fire as the center stone, esp the halo diamonds.

Thank you!

 

[m-2-b]

If you are interested in that WF ACA diamond, I would reserve it immediately and ask their gemologists to examine it for you!

Most melee are usually F/G VS--take a look at Frankie's halo ring where she has a H colored center diamond just to get an idea:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-075ct-h-vs1-rb-diamond-in-victor-canera-emilya-halo-ring.181019/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-075ct-h-vs1-rb-diamond-in-victor-canera-emilya-halo-ring.181019/[/URL]

She used regular cut diamonds on her halo to match her center RB diamond. I have single cut diamonds on my RB halo so it's all personal preference.

 

[vr4_rider]

OMG!! That is just beautiful! I have to go for now, but I will be back to ask more questions

 

[yssie]

Thanks for the replies, DS2006 and mom2boys. I like the analogy with the Porsche. But let me see if I can understand it on my own...

Since not all AGS ideal cut diamonds with ideal/ideal/ideal pol/sym/light performance are the same (due to error and variations in the cutting whether by hand or by machine), there will be 1% that will be selected to be the true H&A because of their top level of idealness. The rest of the ideal cuts will be just considered AGS Ideal cut. Would that be right in understanding this?

Not exactly... it gets complicated because of how different labs value and grade different artifacts.

The hearts and arrows patterns that you see when you look through a H&A scope has absolutely nothing to do with quantity or type of light return. The "symmetry" grade noted on the GIA/AGS report is a qualification of physical facet-meet symmetry - how well the 58 facets that are actually cut into the stone line up with each other, etc. When you look into the stone you see a lot more than 58 facets - reflections of facets in the stone, reflections of reflections - those are "virtual facets", and optical symmetry is a qualification of how symmetric that virtual facet patterning is... looking at a stone through a H&A scope is just an easy way of seeing that optical symmetry, but visible H&A patterns isn't really the *goal* - it's a side-effect of cutting the stone so precisely (w/ optical symmetry as a goal) that you can actually *see* it.

Different rounds with different proportions that are all cut for high optical symmetry will show different patterns when you look through a H&A scope -


http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VVS2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1522198.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1275701.asp
(asymmetries in hearts pics b/c the stone wasn't totally face-up during photography)

These two will have different 'flavours' - different "types" of light return, different amounts of big bold flash/sparky sizzle/white light/coloured light in different types of lighting environments... neither is objectively better than the other, just different! You could cut a stone with poor proportions from a light return standpoint (without that red IS, say) that has excellent optical symmetry, but since that sort of precision cutting is expensive, and since the people to whom it appeals generally also value other things that would require a certain quantity of light return (of whatever "type"), you won't find all that many. Some vendors require that their H&A branded stones also have certain proportions so those stones will all show a certain distinctive flavour of light return, and their hearts pics all look similar (WF, BGD, Infinity...) other vendors like GOG and JA require excellent optical symmetry but don't require that the stones have certain types of proportions so their inventories have a wider variety of H&As.

GIA grades cut with a proportions chart - table is T, crown is C, pav is P, LGF is between X and Y... okay that's the VG box so VG it is. AGSL has several ways of grading RBs and several reports (it's actually more than a bit ridiculous) - the prestigious one is the Diamond Quality Document with Light Performance Analysis - they use a ray tracing "light performance" programme (PGS) so it's not just proportions based like GIA, and most on here would consider an AGS0 a much "safer" choice if you must narrow it down without any more info. Neither AGS nor GIA consider optical symmetry at all, so what they consider "most ideal" has nothing to do with optical symmetry - what they consider most ideal is just GIA EX or AGS0. The EX and 0 grades include a range of proportions for a reason - different people will prefer different 'flavours'...

So the short answer - no, you can't just look at GIA EX or AGS0 and know that the stone is A) what flavour you want, B) has any perfection of H&A patterning, or C) a good "blind" buy... Yes, I have seen GIA EXs and AGS0s I wouldn't want anything to do with, and yes, I have seen GIA VGs and AGS1s/AGS2s I would love. Use the grading and HCA tool to help narrow it down. I *always* recommend getting more info on any stone of interest, or having it shipped out with an ironclad return policy to see in-person if getting more info from the vendor isn't an option.

Labs such as AGS grade cuts, but does any lab grade H&A diamonds, such as the WF ACA?

I think I am going to stay away from BN, and will more than likely buy the diamond you suggested me, DS2006. Thank you! It's nice I'm not alone in my search

What are people's thoughts about the side diamonds and halo diamonds? How do those usually come? I want something in near brilliance and fire as the center stone, esp the halo diamonds.

Thank you!

EGL has a H&A designation but since noone seems to know how this is determined or what the specifications and requirements are who knows how they go about it? HRD has a H&A report - more info here http://www.hrdresearch.be/en/Projects/HeartsArrows/HenA.html I think someone posted a couple of WF ACAs w/ AGSL DQD w/ pav hearts view of some sort a few weeks ago - dunno anything about that though

GIA polish & symmetry: http://www.gia.edu/diamondcut/pdf/polish_and_symmetry.pdf

 

[TC1987]

Also look at the upgrade and return and possible buy-back policies of the vendors. Some let you trade in on any diamond that's more expensive than the trade-in diamond. But some have rules like the upgrade can only be used on a diamond that costs at least 2x as much, etc. GOG does or did have a buyback policy. Personally, those policies would influence my purchase.

It's nice to buy "the best of the best" but keep in mind that some of those parameters can't really be seen without a loupe or a microscope, or without an expert pointing it out. Good Old Gold has a lot of videos online, as well as lots of information. They also offer Gemex BrillianceScope and Gem Adviser whose animations can help you visualize the diamond. (No affiliation. I'm just a happy GOG customer.)

Also read Lorelei's post in this thread:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-me-narrow-my-search-cut-specs-table-crown-depth-etc.131374/#post-2319317#p2319317']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-me-narrow-my-search-cut-specs-table-crown-depth-etc.131374/#post-2319317#p2319317[/URL]

A diamond can be a top-rated cut (and polish and symmetry, but there are still individual nuances in diamonds. For example, how they are proportioned can result in a balance between fire and brilliance, or more bias toward either brilliance or fire. (You can search FIC, BIC, and TIC and read more in this forum.)
BIC Brilliant Ideal Cut Crown angle is less than 32.5° (has a shallow crown angle and probably a large table 58%-62% and might also be shallow like a 60/60 diamond 60%table and 60%depth)
TIC Tolkowsky Ideal Cut Crown angles between 32.5° and 35.5° (aimed for fire + brilliance, a good balance)
FIC Firey Ideal Cut Crown angle as above (cut more for fire: small table, tall crown, might face up slightly small for it's weight and might appear "dark" due to more fire = less white light reflected back)

Referring back to Lorelie's post, the super-ideal H&A diamonds tend to fall within the Pricescope "cheat sheet" of dimensions. The length of girdle facets affects the width of the arrows, and I prefer fat arrows but other people like the thin ones.

 

[TC1987]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiM3COzjFM&feature=BFa&list=UUEV7slr-i-VduBBnfv9MxhA&lf=plcp
^ That video shows a couple of hearts & arrows diamonds next to a Good Old Gold August Vintage round that's like an Old European Cut, and also a Solasfera. You can see how the different faceting affects the look of the diamonds.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The advantage to going with Victor on that setting is that it is almost a no-brainer if you show him the style you want. He is an artist and knows exactly the right details and uses high quality components and the ring will be hand forged.

I think the WF stone is an excellent choice, and I think you will never regret going for an ACA! My only regrets over jewelry have to do with settling for lesser quality. (And just FYI, I have bought diamonds from both WF and GOG and totally trust them for their diamond quality and good trade-in policies, which I have taken advantage of!)

 

[vr4_rider]

Yssie and TC, thanks for your detailed post. It's very informative.

That youtube video just confirms that I can't really tell a difference. It's all about preference I am learning. When I was at Kay's I was shown a Leo and a Tolkowsky. The Leo was GIA Excellent with excellent pol and symmetry. The Tolkowsky was an AGS Ideal. To the naked eye, the Leo looked brighter and more vibrant (it sparkled more--like blindingly). The Tolkowsky was more deep and sparkled less and looked less "messy", and my gf prefered this one. It's like when you go into Best Buy and look at TVs. I like the TVs that are more vibrant in color. My gf likes the more natural color. What does this tell you guys about her and what cut is better for her? I know she likes the Tokowsky, so what things should I be looking for?

Also, I went to Greenberg jewelery to look at their Hearts on Fire diamonds. The guy showed us a HoF and an Ideal non-HoF without any of the overhead lighting (he placed a brochure over the diamonds) and asked if we can spot a difference. Visually, we couldn't. He said either one would be fine for us in that case.

So really, what I am gathering is "Will it matter if you know it's not a H&A diamond." It's all in the mind, because unless you examine it under the scope, then I think it's very hard to distinguish an Ideal diamond with ideal/ideal pol/sym from a H&A. Right? Or can some of you spot the difference (given the carat, color, and clarity is the same) with your naked eyes?

DS2006, how much do you think that ring will run me? My budget for the ring is 3-4k. She doesn't like prongs showing holding the center stone in place, so it must be bezel then? If so, she doesn't like the bezel to be thick where you can see the metal. She would like the transition from the center stone to the halo to be smooth and not apparent that metal is separating the diamonds.

I'll say it---I didn't think it was going to be this difficult to pick out a diamond..haha.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The ACA should look like the HoF diamond. It is a very safe bet when buying online. You were smart to go look at stones locally, but as I am sure you can see, you can do better on price by buying an equivalent stone online. That was precisely what I did, too, when looking for a new diamond for our anniversary a few years ago. I went and looked at a HoF diamond and realized it was better than any stones I had seen before. So after that, we got a ring diamond and earring diamonds from WF and GOG.

If I had to take a wild guess, I would say around $4000 or so for handforged, but that is just an educated guess. Victor does really outstanding, though. Here is an example of a gorgeous bezel halo that he has made:

http://www.victorcanera.com/jewelry/engagement-rings/old-european-cut-diamond-in-bezel-halo.html

 

[TC1987]

...

That youtube video just confirms that I can't really tell a difference. It's all about preference I am learning. ...

...
.So really, what I am gathering is "Will it matter if you know it's not a H&A diamond." It's all in the mind, because unless you examine it under the scope, then I think it's very hard to distinguish an Ideal diamond with ideal/ideal pol/sym from a H&A. Right? Or can some of you spot the difference (given the carat, color, and clarity is the same) with your naked eyes?

Yikes! ( haha) I was trying to show patterning differences, but I guess I didn't explain that. I thought that video was pretty good. It shows different pattern variations in the faceting. All of those diamonds have ideal or near ideal performance, but a different look. The hearts and arrows is a particular way to cut the facets. The August Vintage diamonds have a different facet pattern and the facets are chunkier, like an old-fashioned diamond from say, early 20th century (Old European Cut for round, and Old Mine Cut for more cushion or oblong or squarish shapes. And the Solasfera or whatever the remaining stone was is yet another style of cutting/facets, and the arrows are slimmer plus I think there might be one additional arrow (I'd have to go look that up.)

If your gf liked the Tolk diamond, then probably you can't go wrong with a hearts & arrows round brilliant.

But, yes, a diamond can be graded Ideal yet not be a hearts & arrows. I just pulled two pictures at random (both from GOG's site), but these two diamonds will have a different look and different "personalities." And one is H&A and the other is not.

This PS article talks about H&A and other patterning in diamonds. https://www.pricescope.com/journal/hearts_and_arrows_diamonds_and_basics_diamond_cutting There are also some good stones that are just a tad off from meeting all the criteria to be called H&A.

 

[TC1987]

http://www.goodoldgold.com/Articles/GIACutGrading/Summary/
^ That shows patterning in diamonds. And has some good pics of various diamonds in the "BrillianceScope" so that you can see how the different patterns light up and how they throw flashes of brilliance and fire. There's a really good "typical" H&A pattern in there. The arrows do not look like black limes in real life, at least not often. They are flashes of fire sometimes, and flashes of white brilliance at others.

 

[vr4_rider]

Guys, I appreciate all of your replies.

I'm still at a crossroads, because I just don't know what to do...haha.

There's too many choices.

After looking at Frankie's ring and diamond, I'm almost considering getting a GIA Excellent cut with excellent/excellent pol/sym instead of the Hearts and Arrows. No one is going to look at the diamond under a loupe, and we both prefer size.

I have noticed that GOG and James Allen are cheaper than WF...Which of these three vendors would you guys buy from??? What other vendors should I consider?

 

[yssie]

Guys, I appreciate all of your replies.

I'm still at a crossroads, because I just don't know what to do...haha.

There's too many choices.

After looking at Frankie's ring and diamond, I'm almost considering getting a GIA Excellent cut with excellent/excellent pol/sym instead of the Hearts and Arrows. No one is going to look at the diamond under a loupe, and we both prefer size.

I have noticed that GOG and James Allen are cheaper than WF...Which of these three vendors would you guys buy from??? What other vendors should I consider?

Nothing wrong with that - I chose a non-branded RB for myself based on my priorities at the time, and I'm still very happy with it There are other advantages to buying a branded stone besides the H&A patterning though - generous upgrade/trade-in policies, discounts on settings, the guarantee of a beautiful stone.. other things to consider. If you go through those vendors' policies you'll see that JAs are less generous, but they make up for it with lower pricepoints overall - GOG and WF are usually similarly priced, though of course there might be differences on a per-stone basis. Again - no wrong answers!

If one of the vendors has the setting you want I'd recommend choosing a stone from the same vendor to keep it all in one place. Less hassle, less liability, no shipping/outside stone setting fees..

 

[frankiextah]

hi ! i heard my name being mentioned a couple times here so i want to chime in too !

i'd like to recommend this stone :

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.258-g-si1-round-diamond-ags-104061594001#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/2/

 

[vr4_rider]

Frankie, I love your ring and diamond.

What type of ring design is that?

You didn't get a H&A did you? If you didn't, may I ask why you went the route you did?

I like the link you sent me; however, I found this: http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.280-g-si1-round-diamond-ags-104061594002#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/1/

The one I linked to is a couple hundred more, but there are a lot less imperfections.

Thanks!

 

[TC1987]

I think it is a H&A. Here are previous threads (more images and specs in the second link I posted, if I hastily dug up the *right* threads, hehe):

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/its-here-3-075ct-h-vs1-rb-diamond-thanks-to-james-allen.180372/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/its-here-3-075ct-h-vs1-rb-diamond-thanks-to-james-allen.180372/[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/for-those-who-have-upgraded-3ct-question.179678/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/for-those-who-have-upgraded-3ct-question.179678/page-2[/URL]