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Hearts & Arrows image seems a bit off - ASET/IS pic included

AM1102

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 6, 2016
Messages
26
Hello all,

I am in the process of purchasing a ~1 Carat F SI1 that is confirmed eye clean. I received the ASET & IS images and I think they look pretty good, but the Hearts & Arrow viewer images are throwing me off a bit.

It seems like the hearts & arrows aren't as aligned as I've seen in other images on WhiteFlash. On WhiteFlash, even the stones below the ACA & Ideal cut levels seem to have the hearts & arrows much more aligned, and have a different, more uniform pattern in general.

Can you guys take a look at the images below and let me know what you think? Is it possible that the stone was not centered perfectly or tilted when the photos were taken? Any feedback on the diamond below would be much appreciated. HCA is 1.3. Numbers are 61.4%, 57%, 34.5%, 40.8%.

Thanks

_38428.jpg

_38429.jpg

aset_37.jpg

_38430.jpg
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
21,680
Re: Hearts & Arrows image seems a bit off - ASET/IS pic incl

Is the vendor claiming that this is an H&A stone? (are you paying for an H&A stone?)
 

AM1102

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 6, 2016
Messages
26
Re: Hearts & Arrows image seems a bit off - ASET/IS pic incl

tyty333|1476197439|4085591 said:
Is the vendor claiming that this is an H&A stone? (are you paying for an H&A stone?)
I did not explicitly request a H&A stone, but something with an ideal cut. This is a GIA XXX, and the HCA puts it in the acceptable range.

To make more sense of my question, the stones I just looked at on WhiteFlash don't claim to be H&A either, but they patterns are much more distinct, even with "excellent" cuts and only being labeled at "premier selection", rather than the true top of the line stones they have.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
4,607
Re: Hearts & Arrows image seems a bit off - ASET/IS pic incl

The first two are not Ideal Scope pictures but taken through a hearts & arrows viewer which just shows the picture of the hearts or arrows and does nothing else.

The Asset is correct.

This diamond cannot qualify as hearts & arrows as there are split clefts I the hearts, they all need to look identical too and there are many other parts which need to line up like arrow heads, v''s etc.

Whiteflash are just picking better stones for their premium range, maybe a larger business or something, also they are well educated in what makes a hearts & arrow. Their premier range have missed that mark but may look good to someone who does not want a true hearts & arrows diamond but one that has a similar look.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
4,607

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
4,607
Re: Hearts & Arrows image seems a bit off - ASET/IS pic incl

Does look like an ideal cut would in the asset and looks good.
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
21,680
Re: Hearts & Arrows image seems a bit off - ASET/IS pic incl

AM1102|1476197692|4085594 said:
tyty333|1476197439|4085591 said:
Is the vendor claiming that this is an H&A stone? (are you paying for an H&A stone?)
I did not explicitly request a H&A stone, but something with an ideal cut. This is a GIA XXX, and the HCA puts it in the acceptable range.

To make more sense of my question, the stones I just looked at on WhiteFlash don't claim to be H&A either, but they patterns are much more distinct, even with "excellent" cuts and only being labeled at "premier selection", rather than the true top of the line stones they have.
WF tries to hit the ACA mark but some diamonds get dinged for reasons other than not being H&A or only being close to H&A but
not close enough to make the ACA line. I guess my point is if you want a true H&A then you'll need to buy a stone like an ACA
where the company has a STRICT definition of what an H&A stone is. It takes extra time (read cost) to cut and
ensure an H&A. There is also more that goes into an ACA then just H&A (like Pyramid said).

The good news is that you dont have to have a strict H&A to have a nice stone. The aset on your stone looks good however,
if you dont like that the arrows look a little off then you'll need to keep looking.
 

miraj

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
77
Re: Hearts & Arrows image seems a bit off - ASET/IS pic incl

I suspect the images were correctly photographed -- they seem to be within reason for a GIA XXX. The light return appears to be excellent, so I wouldn't worry about it looking bad.

H&A simply means a diamond (1) has a higher threshold of symmetry and (2) displays a precise pattern when viewed under the scope.

Whiteflash and a lot of the PS vendors focus on providing a superior cut stone, which includes higher levels of symmetry than what is required to meet the GIA Excellent Symmetry threshold. That is why you'll find their stones to be closer to the ideal H&A pattern.

The higher the level of cut symmetry is, will result in more symmetrical flashes of light patterns when you move the stone, which is generally taken as a positive attribute. But I haven't read anywhere that H&A necessarily provides a higher light return when comparing two excellently cut stones.

In my opinion, you have a stone that shows excellent light return and shows excellent symmetry already. So you need to ask two questions:
* If you see the light patterns coming from that stone, will they be satisfactory to you, or do you need even more symmetry?
* Do you need the stone to more closely adhere to the H&A ideal pattern in order for it to be 'mind-clean', or is it satisfactory if it slightly deviates from that pattern?
 

AM1102

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 6, 2016
Messages
26
Re: Hearts & Arrows image seems a bit off - ASET/IS pic incl

Thanks to all for your insight. It was very helpful.

miraj|1476207249|4085695 said:
I suspect the images were correctly photographed -- they seem to be within reason for a GIA XXX. The light return appears to be excellent, so I wouldn't worry about it looking bad.

H&A simply means a diamond (1) has a higher threshold of symmetry and (2) displays a precise pattern when viewed under the scope.

Whiteflash and a lot of the PS vendors focus on providing a superior cut stone, which includes higher levels of symmetry than what is required to meet the GIA Excellent Symmetry threshold. That is why you'll find their stones to be closer to the ideal H&A pattern.

The higher the level of cut symmetry is, will result in more symmetrical flashes of light patterns when you move the stone, which is generally taken as a positive attribute. But I haven't read anywhere that H&A necessarily provides a higher light return when comparing two excellently cut stones.

In my opinion, you have a stone that shows excellent light return and shows excellent symmetry already. So you need to ask two questions:
* If you see the light patterns coming from that stone, will they be satisfactory to you, or do you need even more symmetry?
* Do you need the stone to more closely adhere to the H&A ideal pattern in order for it to be 'mind-clean', or is it satisfactory if it slightly deviates from that pattern?
Thanks for your reply - this now makes more sense to me. To answer your questions: I don't think I need 100% perfect symmetry, because quite frankly neither I or my girlfriend are experts, and I think this stone will satisfy us both. I think the more important thing for us is having a stone with excellent light return because I do not believe we'd be able to discern the difference between this and a perfect pattern stone (but maybe I'm wrong..).

My biggest concerns as I've mentioned are good light return, great brilliance and fire, but most importantly is being eye clean. The grade setting inclusion in this stone are twinning wisps. Based on the picture I attached in the OP, does this stone look eye clean to you?
 

miraj

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
77
Re: Hearts & Arrows image seems a bit off - ASET/IS pic incl

AM1102|1476208008|4085700 said:
does this stone look eye clean to you?
I can't tell whether it is eye clean from the picture: I'm not an expert, the picture is highly magnified, it's just one angle, etc... Besides which, "eye-clean" means different things to different people.

If you are buying online and you are concerned that the stone will have visible inclusions when you see it in person, just make sure that the vendor you are buying from has an ironclad return policy with zero shipping/restocking fees and a good reputation for honoring it (including the ring, if you are buying them together). And make sure that the person selling the stone to you knows that you intend to return the stone/ring if it does have visible inclusions -- they don't want to waste their time/money either. You can also take the stone to an appraiser to get a professional opinion.

It might also help to ask the vendor for their definition of "eye-clean". Maybe their definition is very strict or very easy, or maybe they don't even have a definition. For example, WhiteFlash's definition is:

No inclusions visible to the naked eye of a person with 20/20 vision when viewing the diamond in the face-up position at a distance of approximately 10 inches under normal overhead lighting.
 
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