Hearts & Arrows...hmm

[SandyStar03]

Okay, so my boyfriend and I have been together for a lil' over 3 years-Of course, we both want our wedding day to be magical and so we are going to actually wait a few more years.But,he knows a lot about diamonds(hehe-I edu. him)only wants these specs.-(D-G;IF-VVS2)RB and $ wont be that big of an issue.We want a custom-made band and He wants my approval or have me draw a pic. of what I want my ring to look like-is that weird to see(physically) my ring before he even proposes Or maybe propose without the ring...? That wouldn't be as like "breath taking." We both only want the best in the diamond's 4C's and @ least 1.75+ CT. so we know we're looking at $$$$$$$ But-we'll make sacrifices, like get the lower end of color/clarity...like F/VVS2...We won't get anything below that(quality-wise):::Summarize::
We are buying the diamond now because we know a few years from now the specifications (4C's) we would like will increase...most likely more than we wish to spend..
He and I both really would like a Hearts & Arrows cut but judging from all the reading I've been doing it is only given the name H & A from a company that came up with that spec. for a diamond cut to proportions in japan-how are we going to get ahold of that? How are we going to solve the custom band design dilemma?

 

[SandyStar03]

I didn't have enough room but what I was trying to get through was the fact that only that specific company that discovered Hearts and arrows cut have very strict specific guidelines as to what a real H & A is, even the slightest flaw in the arrow or hearts doesn't count as a H & A and because of that, we would most definitely want only that...Anyways- lol heheheee....So-This older couple we know actually, 11 years ago he got her a 2.11 CT Cut: RB-Color: E-Clarity: FL (no I didn't make a mistake, it's FLAWLESS!Cost: a little over $ 25,000
Since we would like about the same specifications, except we would definitely like H & A but will settle for..ideal if we can't get ahold of H & A...How much do you think we'll be paying for:Cut: RB-Color: D-FClarity: IF-VVS2 (we are trying for @ VVS1/IF-but will settle)Cost:hopefully under $50,000
and no we're not rich-at all! he's 20 and I'm 18-He's just the type of guy that has goals and if he wants it, he'll make sure he gets it, and it may be too much $$$ or too big of a diamond for others but for us, we just want something that was specially made, and I am going to get him a custom-made wedding band, so-We are both students and work harder than any of our friends our age so it's not like mommy and daddy give us everything. No, my parents immigrated here and his parents made him learn responsiblity when he could work @ 15 and ever since, he's been supporting both of us.
KEEP in mind, we're not tying the knot for a few years...
I also want to mention the fact that my center stone will be 1.25 or so but my total carat weight will probably end p being about 2.50 or so....I personally love big blings but for myself, I have a size 4.5 ring finger...So I'll stick with a 1.25 ct. center not small but not Giantic.

 

[msbennie]

In my search on PS, found the following...no one had IF with your specs...they were all 2.0 and with F clarity. Actually, I believe the specs below are all for "one" diamond that is being sold by four different companies.


2.00
F
VVS1
61.9%
57%
GIA
-

vg
ex
no
8.05x8.1x5
$17347
$34694*SP
----------
2.00
F
VVS1
61.9%
57%
GIA
no
vg
ex
no
8.05-8.10x5.00
$17355
$34709*
---------
2.00
F
VVS1
61.9%
57%
GIA
vg
ex
no
8.05-8.10x5.00
$17358
$34716*S
--------
2.00
F
VVS1
61.9%
57%
GIA
vg
ex
no
8.05-8.10x5.00
$17600
$35201*SP

 

[denverappraiser]

SandyStar03,

Lots of questions here.

H&A has become a term that is used by many different vendors to describe their stones and they have differing opinions about what would qualiy. Whiteflash has a good discussion of this issue on their site.

The company you are refering to is probably eightstar. There are quite a few dealers that visit here that sell their stones. Wink is one that comes to mind but I'm sure there are others. There may be a local dealer that sells them as well. You can look up on www.eightstar.com for a referal to their dealer network.

Custom jewelery is available from most of the dealers here and most of the storefront shops in your community. There are quite a few discussions on this topic. The ring doesn't have to come from the same supplier as the diamond although there are some reasons to give an advantage to that particular jeweler.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[alexah]

As far as H&A goes, i suggest you go to the main PS page & click on knowledge & select H&A from the drop down.... LINK

Also, this was written by our sage Garry on the tutorial page:

"In Japan in the 80's someone noticed hearts patterns when they looked at the back of a diamond with a Firescope. They designed a novelty instrument to display the H&A phenomena. These diamonds became very popular in Japan, up to 80% of engagement rings sold there have been H&A’s.

The source of colored light is from a tube around the stone. The arrows are the same as they appear in symmetrical diamonds through the Firescope, but are white. The hearts are observed by looking at the back of an unset stone, and should be 8 well shaped hearts with Vee shaped arrowheads pointing to the culet.

The H&A scope places a white ring around its (lower power) lens so it cannot be used to assess the brilliance because you cannot detect light leakage. The device is a simple but effective symmetry tool. But many beautiful diamonds have poor symmetry.

H&A have become very popular in the USA. This is partly because they are seen as a safe way of buying an Ideal Cut diamond, and partly because of the cute patterns. If you are contemplating buying a H&A branded diamond you should consider some of these arguments:

As a way of buying a diamond H&A is an emotional decision that mainly has appeal only to a couple getting engaged.
The marketing money spent on establishing the various brands of H&A’s have ‘added value’, but the trend may not be around in years to come if you wish to sell your diamond. The premium you pay now could be of no value then.
Once the H&A is set in a ring, it is impossible to display the hearts pattern.

Here are some technical observations:

Most H&A look better than most AGS 0’s
The best are said to have AGS 0 ratings, but there are beautiful H&A’s well outside the AGS 0 range
Not all AGS 0 stones display H&A
Not all H&A are Ideal Cuts"

 

[Superidealist]

alexah wrote:
Also, this was written by our sage Garry on the tutorial page:

'In Japan in the 80's someone noticed hearts patterns when they looked at the back of a diamond with a Firescope.'

I think this is a little off. Katsunori Hirama of Zenhokyo has said that the hearts and arrows pattern was discovered serendipitously while using a cut proportion scope. The company the original poster mentioned may also be the Heart and Arrow diamond company, one of the very first makers of hearts and arrows diamonds.

By the way, if you'd like to take the Heart and Arrow hearts and arrows "challenge quiz," click on the start button (just abve the word "Macromedia"). Click the start button that appears then click on the "correct" hearts and arrows pattern. It gets progressively harder, but I doubt it will be much of a challenge to most Pricescope readers.

 

[Todd07]

Hi Sandy,
It sounds to me like his desire to please you isn't an issue but money is.

Since you are young and have other significant expenses if you get married, why are you spending $ on diamond requirements that won't add beauty or size to the ring?

Read the posts and tutorial. Everyone says a well cut stone looks whiter, larger and generally more beautiful. Make this C your priority. Use the "search by cut quality" link on the home page to compare options on Color, Clarity and Carat.

Why pay for VVS2 when VS2 or SI1 is equally beautiful? Use the Price Stat link at the top of every PS page to compare spec trade offs.
VVS2 F 1-1.5C costs ave $8885/c
SI1 F 1-1.5C costs ave $5372/c
= you are paying 65% more for a VVS2 that is not more beautiful and only you will know it is more rare and expensive. Anyone who sees you wearing the ring will not notice the difference.

How color sensitive are you and our BF? D E F stones are more rare and thus more expensive. An H or I does not look bad and is preferred by many people. If well cut they will be very bright and beautiful. Since they are less rare, they are also cheaper. Using the same price stats link
F VVS2 1A cut 1-1.5c costs an ave of $8885/C
I VVS2 1A cut 1-1.5c costs an ave of $5125/C
= the F color costs you 73% more per carat. Will you notice the difference and is it worth a 73% premium?

For reference:
F VVS2 1A cut 1-1.5c costs an ave of $8885/C
I SI1 1A cut 1-1.5c costs an ave of $4155/C
= you are paying 113% premium for what many people feel does not increase the beauty of the ring.

Just because your BF will get you the ring you want doesn't mean it's a wise financial decision for both of you. Think hard about the color and clarity you need. Your local jeweler can easily pull a selection for you to examine to test your sensitivity.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Super Ideal-sit wrote "I think this is a little off. Katsunori Hirama of Zenhokyo has said that the hearts and arrows pattern was discovered serendipitously while using a cut proportion scope."

What type of "cut proportion scope" would you think that might have been Riley?
A GIA or other propotion measuring scope (commonly used at the time) will not show H&A's.

 

[Superidealist]

I doubt this refers to the Firescope, since "Firescope" in Japanese is "ファイヤースコープ" and "cut proportion scope" is "カットプロポーションスコープ". Both are English "loan words" (though I believe both to have originated in Japan) written in katakana (Japanese symbols used to write loan words). The English translation of each would be obvious, so I doubt that Mr. Hirama would have confused the two. The cut proportion scope looks just like a hearts and arrows viewer from what I can tell. I don't know what, if any, difference there is between the two.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Riley I do not believe anyone set out to design a scope for H&A's diamonds.
There were Okuda and Firescopes used for cut grading before the H&A's concept was discovered.

Why / how can anyone design a device to view a product until the product has been discovered?

 

[Superidealist]

And there were proportion loupes even before Okuda and the Firescope. The cut proportion scope may not have been originally designed to view hearts and arrows, just as the Firescope was not originally designed to view the "EightStar pattern". If you would like, I could contact Zenhokyo for clarification. They made no mention of the Firescope in relation to the invention of the hearts and arrows viewer.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Please do.
I guess my point is Riley, that H&A's was most likely discovered as an accident after the red (colored) reflector idea for cut grading had been established.
I doubt anyone woke up at 3AM and said "wow lets see if diamonds have little hearts patterns in the back!!!"

 

[Superidealist]

I'll email him later this week when I have more time and get back to you. Was there anything else you'd like me to ask him?

 

[wanderlost]

Jumping back to Sandy's original post.....

Congrats.

I will soon be proposing to my gf of nearly 5 years & I just recently found the right stone to go into a really unique tension setting:
(the White Gold TR-025 from Gelin & Abaci - you can see some great pictures of their rings on Micky Roof's Site (her specific one is here)...

In any case.... I won't discourage you & him from pursuing a really big rock... they look awesome. But let me mention that if you trade off just a little bit on your color & clarity - you could put the extra money towards a huge honeymoon or a downpayment on a house for the two of you.....

Jonathan's site (Good old Gold) has some FANTASTIC information on what you should know before you buy a diamond (I've taken the last 9 months to educate myself & believe me - I've only scratched the surface) - and has several diamonds in the 2 Carat & Up section, but let me direct you to this little fireball....hey I'm into symmetry & this is beautiful! or you really could spend upwards of $50k on a stone and get something just breathtaking......

In any case... when you do get closer to knowing exactly what you want... we'd love to see the stones that you're looking at and would be happy to help you if you can't decide which one is best.

A few quick things....
* Avoid retail outlets (the mall, local jewelry stores, etc...) their markup on a similar stone could easily double the price that you could get from a vendor here....
* Learn more about cut & make it 'THE' or 'One of The' top priorities in your purchase.... a 2ct. stone could look dead & smaller than a 1.5ct. stone if it was not well cut. Time spent looking, reading & asking questions about this will pay off greatly in the end....
* If you need anyone to talk to about this purchase.... need help finding the stone & want to be treated in a way that makes you want to buy a million more diamonds.... talk to Wink @ Winfield's Jewelers...

You might also consider the relative rarity of diamonds versus other gems out there (as you'll learn by reading posts here, they're not incredibly rare....).... and consider buying a beautiful 1ct diamond @ 1/10 the price that you're currently thinking of & spend another 1/10 on a 5 ct or so deep blue sapphire like this one.... WOW.

(more of Richard Homer's work can be seen @ Concave Gems.com....!

Hope to hear from you again soon on the board.

 

[SandyStar03]

Hey thanks~You know- to many people it may not matter when someone looks at your ring and can't tell the difference. With me, I don't care if they can or cannot tell the difference, the thing is you buy quality, ten years from now it will still be quality-buy shit, ten years from now it will still be shit. In a sense, but I am not saying this is going to be an "investment" we're not in it for the money but it's more the value of the diamond. I'd like to have something that is somewhat rare and it would be a nice thing to be able to cherish something special-It's not the whole material stuff either. I mean, I also would love to hand down my ring to my daughter or son-I want it to be something absolutely beautiful outside as well inside. And we've come to the conclusion that-It's not so much the $$ but the physcial value of it. Just to know that you don't just have a diamond but a rare one which makes it that much more special. It's hard to explain what I am trying to say. Color is more important to me than clarity but the cut is a definite importance on my list. It defines the brilliance and light source and whether it be a H&A or just Ideal, we want something that just isn't any diamond. If you're going to spend some-odd thousands on a diamond might as well go for the best. Why throw away so much money on a diamond that isn't even going to be worth anything? Much less, the fact of just knowing you have purchased a bad color/cut/clarity diamond for 'x' amount of money isn't even worth my time- The point is, if we're spending $20,000 on a diamond that represents more than just our love-we want it to be as special and no matter how small the diamond, we want quality over quantity. So-just knowing that what I have on my finger is great in quality is good enough for us. We've had our experiences with diamonds. I have a 1/2 ct. color-G clarity-SI1 and before that I had a .94 ct-Which had a very good cut but the clairty was I2 and color was I- It was very noticable in the quality-So I downsized to the 1/2 carat and people ask why downsize? It's NOT how big it is, but we like to know that we spent $2k on something that's EVEN worth spending $$$ on. I guess it's also the fact that we both have HIGH expectations when it comes to quality of food, furniture, and anything that we're dumping hard earned cash on...which would be a ring.
BTW, It seems like some of you think I am uneducated about this stuff...I know that I want an Ideal-cut whether it be H&A or not, the cut is most important-polish and symmetry as well-I CAN tell the difference between a SI1 quality and VS1-or like the other person asked if we could tell the differnce in color? OH YES! Whenever I take a look at someone's ring, right off the bat I can see the flaws-feathering, if it's clouded, dirty-My sister's ring is absolutely gorgeous and you're right, how can anyone tell? I can, at first I thought maybe she just got ink on her diamond, no it was just a bad color- So yes-Color, definitely the cut and p/s are on top of our list. Clarity we WILL settle for something less like VS1/VS2-Thanks again all

 

[alstroemeria]

Hey,


This might not be relevant, but I did the test and got a perfect ten!

The last one was quite difficult though. I think the trick is to focus on the arrows from a distance rather than the hearts. Looking at the hearts, I have no way of seeing the subtle difference at all!


Now I wish looking at real diamonds is as simple as looking at those pictures.

 

[diamondsonthemind]

It sounds like you are set on what you want, so the only thing that I can offer is to repeat what wanderlost has said, learn more about the CUT. I had the same expectations as you when I started, but that was before I actually learned more about the other specs. In my searches I have found D color, vvs1 clarity, 1ct. diamonds that are not nearly as stunning as diamonds with lower specs, but a superior cut. In the retail word there is too much emphasis placed on the 4 C's alone and not all of the qualities that really make up a great stone. Do some searching on this site and you will find plenty of interesting info.