Hearts and Arrows: cost vs. benefit.

[lenhejo]

I recently read that when viewing a hearts on fire diamond with a hearts on fire viewer you are only able to see 16 of the diamonds main facets. However, a round brilliant cut diamond has 57-58 facets. So basically, the viewer ignores the other 41-42 facets of the diamond any of which can be allowing light to pass through, leaking, and killing the brilliance of the stone. I also read that it was not uncommon for Hearts and Arrow diamonds to be cut with severely reduced brilliance and that most Hearts and Arrow diamonds leak light in the area near the girdle creating a "dead zone" of lost brilliance.

If so, what justifies the Hearts and Arrow Premimum? Is it just the added internal design or does it add to the external brilliance. I was under the impression that Hearts & Arrow diamonds were more brilliant and scintillating than regular stones.

Should I buy Hearts & Arrows?

What about an eightstar?

 

[verticalhorizon]

Where did you read that? I'd be interested in reading it too.

When using an H&A viewer, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, you're not looking at facest really, you're examining symmetry. Coupled with the diamonds specs you can guestimate it's performance and weed out as necessary.

H&A is really just a by-product of an excellent cut diamond. That's not to say that a diamond that has H&A symmetry can't be a leaker, but an excellently cut and proportioned diamond will have H&A symmetery. To make matters more confusing, a diamond that has excellent brilliance, doesn't have to have H&A.

There are a few newer round diamonds that have a lot more facets than the 57/58 and do not have H&A symmetry. I've never seen one up close though.

In my opinion, one reason to seek out an excellently cut and proportioned diamond is so that you can make the most of your $$ and compromise in other areas (like color) and perhaps increase in weight.

 

[lenhejo]

Thanks for the reply.

I actually read it on the eightstar sight. Was curious as to whether there was any truth to it.

Why can you compromise color when buying an H&A diamond?

 

[niceice]

You can't really use a Gems Fantasy Scope to evaluate the symmetry of a diamond, it merely enables the viewer to determine whether a diamond exhibits a pattern of hearts and arrows by diffusing the light source using a piece of colored filiment paper / film and enlarges the image a bit by use of a 3x magnification lens. Symmetry is graded by the consistency of facet shape and alignment and can only be determined by examining the diamond using a professional quality lab scope.

The hearts pattern is essentially a reflection of the kite shaped bezel facets located on the crown (top) section of the diamond as seen through the pvailion (lower half) of the diamond, an optical effect is caused by the angle of the facets causing it to look like hearts instead of kites.

The arrows pattern is essentially a reflection of the eight pavilion main facets which extend outward from the culet (bottom point) of the diamond towards the girdle edge with the same optical effect applied.

While it is true that there was a visual difference between ideal cut diamonds which exhibited a pattern of hearts and arrows and those which did not back in the mid-90's, that was only because most of the ideal cut diamonds that were available on the market at that time were not as precise as the ideal cut diamonds being sold today... We're unable to see a visual difference in terms of overall visual performance between most of the Super Ideal Diamonds (cut to tighter proportions than just ideal) and those diamonds which happen to exhibit a pattern of hearts and arrows. This is a statement based upon averages, so we're not saying "buy hearts and arrows or don't" we're simply saying that the presence of an H&A pattern is not an absolute indicator of superior visual performance, each diamond must be evaluated and considered on it's own merit and compared to the expectations of the buyer - in our case, we "buy" based upon our expectations for visual performance based upon our experience and developed expectations for brilliance and dispersion.

 

[verticalhorizon]

Is the 'Gems Fantasy Scope' the same as an H&A viewer? I had never heard it called that before.

What about the IdealScope/Firescope? I thought these tools were good for examining symmetry?

By purcashing an ideal cut diamond, not necessarily an H&A, it will reflect more light back toward the viewer (not leaking out the sides or bottom) and will mask a lower color grade. To people who are not sensitive to color (or who just don't care that much), it represents a good value.

 

[hoorray]

It sounds as if you've been reading up. I would recommend reading material from several sources just to get different points of view on the subject. The tutorials here, and www.goodoldgold.com and www.niceice are all good -- especially the cut sections.




That said, H&A is really a measurement of the precision of the cut. It, by itself doesn't guarantee a blazing diamond, but it is a good indicator -- it means all those facets are lined up symetrically to optimize light reflection. (That is my layman's explanation -- the experts are probably grimicing...) H&A, combined with the right cut proportions will make a spectacular diamond that looks bigger and whiter than it's non-ideal counterparts. If you are looking for the best you can find, I would recommend looking at the H&A's, but you can also find spectacular stones without perfect H&A.




Eight*'s are known to be beautiful diamonds with precision cutting. They also command a heafty premium, so it's up to you on whether it is worth it or not. I certainly owuldn't turn down an eight*, but probably wouldn't pay that premium since I know I can get other precision cut, beautiful stones for less. (I care about the overall value as well as the stone's beauty.)




Edited to add: looks as if some of those tutorials came to you while I was typing.

 

[lenhejo]

Thanks. And yes, I have been trying to read up. I also am trying to get the best value for my dollar.

You stated that "H&A, combined with the right cut proportions will make a spectacular diamond that looks bigger and whiter than it's non-ideal counterparts." I was under the impression that H&A diamonds did exhibit the right cut proportions. Is this not accurate? Aren't the table, depth percetption and symmetry measurements all ideal with an H&A diamond, or do I have to worry about those characteristics individually?

Thanks again.

 

[verticalhorizon]

There is a range that falls within ideal proportions, so you should be looking at everything. Plus, you can stretch your money a bit further by selecting a diamond that isn't completely within ideal categories, but where the performance is negligible to the nekkid eye. You have to set your priorities, but it can be done.

 

[niceice]

A non-ideal cut diamond can exhibit a crisp and complete pattern of hearts and arrows just as an ideal cut diamond can, so no the presence of a pattern of hearts and arrows is not an indication of ideal cut proportions. Remember, the pattern is merely a reflection of the facets and all round brilliant cut diamonds are cut with the same pattern of facets, just different proportions.

A Gems Fantasy Scope and an H&A viewer are the same thing, the GFS is the original scope created by the Japanese.

An Ideal Scope and a Fire Scope are different instruments and are not intended to evaluate H&A patterns although an arrows pattern may be visible through these devices because they do diffuse light in such a way to make that possible.

Is it "leakage" or "lack of reflection"? We discussed our theories behind this concept Here on PS but nobody really wanted to address our theory regarding that concept.

 

[hoorray]

My opinion is that you should still pay attention to the proportions as well as the H&A. Everything I have read says H&A is not a guarantee of great performance, but is always a good thing. The crown and pavilion angles (the combo) probably impact the light return the most. You should get a sarin report or something else that gives you the details of the stone and ask opinions here, run it through the HCA above, and check out the DIY cut chart at www.gemappraisers.com to see how the stone ranks and what the expected preformance would be.




I'm not an expert, but this is how I approach it. The experts here and the tools they provide are very helpful, and the vendors you talk to can "talk you through" a stone before you see it with pictures, reports, and their own experienced eyes.




Edited to add: Wow -- they keep beating me at the typing thing! I'm feeling very redundant -- especiall 'cuz R&T know so much more than I do.

They give good advice.

 

[verticalhorizon]

Ditto, Lop... I'm gonna let the experts handle it!

And it would seem that I have some light reading to do, thanks to Robin and Todd.

Always more to learn!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have done some work to show you what 8* mean - this is still H&A's proportions but more than half the light entering in this particular direction in the inside table region is leakage -as you can see in the ideal-scope image on the right.

Now on the IS image you can see the leakage near the girdle. this does make the diamond look a little smaller than an 8* or ACA newline. But as Brian from ACA says, the leakage provides additional contrast.

Now so that there are more people able to answer this question will you all please go read the http://www.ideal-scope.com/newsletter_issue_003.asp
And then read this http://www.ideal-scope.com/newsletter_issue_004.asp

If anyone could please help me find a better way to explain the benefit of girdle leakage please let me know

 

[hoorray]

So Garry,




I've read those reports, and they have shown me that girdle leakage is good due to the increased contrast. (I think the black and white pictures are a great way to show that btw...) I can't seem to get them to come up from these links, so there might be more there than I remember, (I'm on a loaner computer due to a death in my comupter family

), but are you saying that the leakage you show in the eight* tables is the same thing?

John-Aaron,

It sounds as if you are looking for a great stone at a fair price. Keep reading and do some searches on the web to see what you can find. If nothing else, it will show you what's out there for comparisons sake. If you find some that sound interesting, strike up a dialog with the vendors, and see if they can help find you the right stone if the ones they have in stock don't fit the bill. There is someone here recently who just bought a 4ct stone that way, and she is very happy with what looks like a beautiful stone. This group can help you sort through the ins and outs of the marketing material to get to the real meat. Cut is key. The more you learn about it, the more you'll be able to sift through this. H&A are important, but so is the actual proportions of the stone, and one doesn't guarantee the other.

Good luck and come back to ask more questions!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You are right Lop - I failed link posting - i made them into ordinary copy and paste links

 

[lenhejo]

Thanks for your reply.

As far as the actual proportions of the stone are concerned, won't the GIA certification specify the table, depth perception, etc...

Thanks again.

 

[hoorray]

GIA doesn't grade cut. The GIA cert will tell you color, clarity and basic dimensions, but they will not tell you everything you need to know to evaluate cut. Table and depth are not enough to evaluate cut with. This is why you need an OGI or Sarin report ont he stone (which most vendors can supply) and to read up on the basics of cut.

 

[limey]

To answer your original q' of cost/benefit of H&A. (assume I am talking about a better H&A)

1. Better light return - in all light conditions. Just sparkles like crazy
2. Looks bigger - 100% of the surface area is sparkling, hard to tell where diamond starts and stops
3. Face up whiter
4. Arrows look really cool thru the little viewer and give off a light show in spot lights (Hearts are hidden once set, maybe you didn't know that)
5. Wife loves it!

In my case premium for H&A was negligible and I got a great looking stone.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I share some other peoples opinion that it is possible to have a diamond that does not have perfect H&A's patterns and not ever be able to tell the difference between those diamonds with the naked eyes.
H&A's is however a very effective marketing concept and prooves the craftsmanship is top notch, and like the D Flawless concept - that has some value to some people.
But when a stone has very good optical symetry, and H&A's sym, I remain unconvinced that the H&A"s is always the winner.

I am of course assuming all other factors like proportions etc are the same.

But the issue is far more complex - as the size of the diamond increases it is Sergey's opinion that the symmetry should become deliberately worse, or otherwise the facets become too big in appearance and the stone looses small particle type scintillation. (the type princess cuts have)

 

[valeria101]

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On 5/24/2004 3:51:15 AM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:



But the issue is far more complex - as the size of the diamond increases it is Sergey's opinion that the symmetry should become deliberately worse, or otherwise the facets become too big in appearance and the stone looses small particle type scintillation. (the type princess cuts have)

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Yet one more source o complexity that mere mortals can hapilly ignore... unles one wants a 10cts H&A, and not a mirror-ring

Up to 3 cts, wouldn't such concern be just redundant?

At least one branded diamond cut (century diamonds) takes it's pride from cutting more facets the bigger the stones get (only they overdo it).

More, smaller facets are definitely routine for all-thing-non diamond, and obvioulsy effective. Has anyone tried to put ... err... ten arrows intead of eight on a diamond?