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HCA challenged

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linny14

Rough_Rock
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Aug 1, 2004
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i was on another forum and i saw a banner with this topic. this must have been talked on this site before so if there is an old thread i apologize but i did ntt find it on my search.

http://www.diamondbrokersoffl.com/why-the-hca-does-not-work.htFor the last few years, there has been a system that claims to give visual performance of diamonds it never sees based on punching in a few numbers which are then spit back out as supposedly accurate visual results?!

Some consumers may have become familiar with this since it is preached as gospel on a particular forum that markets this system. I will give you some of the reasons why this system does not work in giving accurate visual performance of diamonds.

1. First and most obviously, the diamond is never *seen*, so how can visual results be given? They can''t. No gemological laboratory or professional would ever render opinions, and especially visual opinions, on something that it never sees. It starts off inaccurate from the get go. This should be common sense.

2. It is relying on mathematical external averages of only a portion of the diamond that it is supposedly giving visual results of? An average crown angle, pavilion angle, table and total depth cannot render the total visual possiblility of a diamond. There are 57 facets on a round brilliant diamond to begin with. The total external overall picture of the diamond is not even taken into account. Even if it did, it would not matter because the physics of light passing through a diamond and returning to the eye for maximum brilliance cannot be summarized using average measurements by a simplistic formula that is alleged to cover the "visual truth" over a wide spectrum of diamonds. This is so obvious with just a little bit of thought. There is an almost uncountable number of beams of light entering a diamond through each facet of the stone. How can any tool even approximate the visual "beauty" of a diamond when it does not take into account all the facets the beams of light enter from? Let alone the incredible path light takes as it bounces from facet to facet? One of the benefits of cutting a diamond by hand is that the cutter analyzes the diamond while it is being cut to determine how the light reflection is really working on that stone. And he makes adjustments as he goes along.

3. Facet size, length, and placement are something that also affect how a diamond will visually perform. The system does not even take these into consideration. Main facets and minor facets can vary in how they are placed and their shape, size and length can vary too. There is nothing in a mathematical formula that can cover this. There are infinite possiblities. Diamonds must be *seen*.

4. Sarin machines are not that accurate in themselves, and readings can vary on the same machine as well as different machines. It is not unlikely to have several different readings from the same sarin and other sarins can have a larger variance. This in and of itself makes it impossible to rely on numbers to give us *visual* results. External measurements do not provide *visual* results.

5. There is no control where the numbers come from. There are no laboratory conditions that would keep the results consistent from one source. Sarins are being provided from numerous sources and will not be consistent. They could even be from different stones for that matter. So this format is not reliable, the numbers could come out of thin air for all they know. So how can visual results be given? They can''t.

6. There are many ways to cut a beautiful diamond. Diamonds are not Sony TV''s. Light return and beauty are not something that can be predicted soley on numerical formulas. Many diamonds can have different facet arrangements and fall out of the so called "ideal numerical" and produce equivalent or greater light performance than some that are "ideal numerical".

7. Every diamond is individual and the cutters who turn the raw earth into a sparkling gem are individuals themselves. Like artists, they all have a different approach. This is one reason why diamonds are not something where one is identical to the next.

8. The HCA assumes that a diamond is perfectly symmetrical much like a computer rendering. This is not the case with diamonds. All the crown angles and pavilion angles are not identical. They do have variances and are not cut out of a cookie cutter. They are done by hand for the most part.

9. Worth repeating. Paper and numbers cannot give or express the visual or potential visual beauty of a diamond. Most in the industry don''t buy sight unseen. There are many stones that can sound great on paper and can just be average in visual performance.

10. It is theoretical and not supported by industry authorities. Much like a drug that was not approved by the FDA. It has many unspoken side effects. It really shouldn''t be on the market for consumers to use as some judgement of visual cut quality, or base buying decisions on. There are many things on the web that aren''t true, so keep that in mind. Test the facts and see if they hold water. This is mainly for consumers to review so that they can maintain a common sense approach to buying a diamond. There are some on the web that will try to convince you otherwise in their marketing efforts to have some magic bean calculator that will render visual opinions on something it doesn''t see. There is no one on the net that can give you results or accurate opinions on how a diamond looks with a few numbers and without *seeing* it. Think about that.
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Was there supposed to be a question or comment after the pasting of the website content? If not, I am confused.
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Or was this just a post to enlighten people? This has been discussed ad naseum before, click on 'Search' and type in HCA to see the hundreds of threads.
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i am investigating getting a stone , i have been trying to read all i can about cut , etc. i found these comments on a website and was curious if these points were addressed here. as i mentioned i did do a search. putting HCA is a bit broad and i did not find mention of this detractors comments. if someone can point me more directly to the thread that addresses these , i would be more than happy.
 
HCA is a tool for weeding out known poor performers. A good HCA score does not guarantee optimal performance. It is more likely your diamond will perform that well, but not a sure bet. Other things like idealscope or lightscope, Bscope, etc. have been known to help people finalize choices.

I think most would agree the best test you can do for a diamond is the one with your own eyes. Vendors listed on pricescope are willing to work with an independant appraiser to assist you. Or you can buy the diamond and return it if it is not the marvelous stone you thought it would be with no hassle.

If you work with the people on this site, I have yet to see someone complain about a diamond they purchased.
 
Did you read any of the posts you found? I ask this because practically every week a question surfaces about the validity of the HCA and/or asking if the HCA really works. Almost every post or response seems to address issues such as that webpage speaks about. Garry's website and also the HCA pages on here speak directly on how the HCA works. Garry is very frank as well about what scores well vs. what will not.




The HCA is not a magic tool where you wave your hand and it pronounces final judgement on your diamond. It's a tool, one of many, and it's hotly debated. I would use it to separate the wheat from the chaff in your search, I used it along with other reports, pictures, etc and I was more than ecstatic with my stone. Would I use just the HCA and a GIA report to buy a stone? Definitely not. But would I trust someone that I didn't know to tell me with their eyes how this stone looks? Expert or not? Definitely not. There is a happy medium somewhere in between that many people tend to find when shopping online.




Has anyone posted that sour grapes link from DBOF and asked about it? Yes I think actually once or twice, but usually the questions are couched in other HCA discussion threads, so you have to do a little research. If you really care to figure out the HCA and how it works, you can. Then you can make your own determination for yourself on what you would like to believe when you purchase your stone.
 
I agree with what wonka said. The HCA does not claim to pick out a beautiful stone for you. It is one of many tools that can help a consumer weed out the poor performers in order to narrow down the search. At some point, your eyes will have to tell you if you like the stone. The HCA is designed to help you waste less time looking at what will probably be the ugly ones out there.

I've used the HCA to narrow down my search, and since I was working with a vendor that does not provide the other useful tools like IS images and photographs, I did have to purchase the stone and look for myself. It scored a 0.8 on the HCA, but also looked great through the IdealScope, and had beautiful optical symmetry (turned out to be H&A even). The package was exactly what I was looking for.

Would I have trusted just the HCA score to guarantee a perfect stone? Of course not, but that would be silly, because the HCA doesn't try to. Did it help me narrow down my choices? Absolutely.

In short, it's a great tool, and one of many. Use it as intended, and you will probably find it helpful!
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If DBOF put 1/2 the energy into their *own* business instead of running around like chicken little about the HCA & PS, they would have nothing to worry about regarding competition. Their "debunking" of the HCA is less a community service & more like a vendetta. I tend to shy away from anyone who is fanatical.

As mentioned, the HCA can be an effective tool to weed out stones when one can not physically inspect several at a time. At the end of the day, everyone agrees that a visual is the most important aspect when selecting a stone. But, this should be what pleases *your* eyes and not what pleases the "salesperson's eyes."
 
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