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H&A question

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ringabling

ringabling

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
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Has anyone here been able to compare, side by side 2 VERY comparable {size, color, clarity} good size diamonds {3 carats theoretically ;)}size, color, clarity} when one is a Hearts & Arrows or Hearts on Fire and an Ideal cut?
Is there a truly noticable difference?
Would you only notice the difference when directly comparing them?

TIA!
{thanks in advance}
 
LOL! No one?
Anyone compare any ideals to H&A?
 
There have been people who say they can tell this difference, but no-one ever volunteered for the pepsi taste test.

Round these''ere parts it is generally agreed that the difference is a mind thing rather than a visual thing.

FYI it is possible for a diamond to have H&A''s patterning and not have what moi and many others call very nice proportions and optimum light return.
 
I think your question is more puzzling than anything, so folks don't know how to respond...except the man from OZ
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The problem is with your terms - H&A and Ideal have several definitions depending on whom you are consulting, and HoF is simply a trade brand name...so under any given set of circumstances any one of these terms may, or may not, be included as sub-set of any of the other two terms...confusing enough?
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Date: 12/10/2007 10:53:36 PM
Author:ringabling

Has anyone here been able to compare, side by side 2 VERY comparable {size, color, clarity} good size diamonds {3 carats theoretically ;)}size, color, clarity} when one is a Hearts & Arrows or Hearts on Fire and an Ideal cut?
Is there a truly noticable difference?
Click to expand...
This question (in a few forms) does seem to have been asked a lot recently. Here is a similar thread (forgive me if I repeat some of it here).

One important answer to your question is that many things are easier to see in larger sizes and various lighting: Tonal body color is more apparent in some lighting, inclusions are spied with greater ease in some lighting and the crispness of the ''arrows''/contrast patten is more evident in some lighting.

As Gary Dutton notes, it''s hard to say more without knowing specifics. When you''re talking about generalizations like Ideal or GIA EX there are some visible differences inside those grades so it’s a stone-by-stone call. Second, cut sensitivity varies among people in the same way color & clarity sensitivity does. Some people pick out insane detail. Others don''t. I distinguish more now than when I started my GIA coursework. Born and bred diamantaires like my boss detect things most people never will. None of us can speak for the next person.

Our experience: We carry several hundred top H&A ideals and an equal number of ideal cuts that are not H&A. Something I learned from Brian Gavin when showing diamonds side by side in our offices is to say little and allow the viewing consumers to make decisions by themselves. Different people see different things and it is only after they have formed their opinions that we give details.

With that said, you should know that when you ask for professional ''opinions'' the answers will tend to be loaded. Pros will logically support what they believe in and/or sell. Diamantaires who specialize in H&A precision will tell you there is a difference. Sellers who only have access to ‘close-to-H&A’ ideals will say there’s no difference. Merchants in some markets flat out preach that ‘ideal’ is baloney, IGI is as good as GIA and the whole H&A concept is a gimmick (but just LOOK at this steep/deep fracture filled beauty I have!).
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It''s all personal. No one can speak for what another individual will perceive, or value. The success of top H&A brands sold side by side with other ideals in the US and abroad provides one answer your question. That doesn’t mean it’s the answer for everyone.
 
Ever thought of a career in the diplomatic professions Sir John?
 
Very diplomatic indeed, John. To summarize it, it is not because you CAN see a difference, that everyone WILL see a difference.

A second problem in this regard is that the cut-quality-research is still not fully completed, and that part of what we observe in highly symmetrical stones, still is not proven scientifically. Let me explain.

Hearts-and-Arrows constitutes of two parts. I would rename the Arrows-view the contrast-view, and the hearts-view the symmetry-view.

The contrast-view, or arrows-view, is a similar viewing environment to the idealscope, the ASET-scope and various other variances. I immediately add that it is a simplified view, which does not give the same information as the other scopes, but the principle is similar. Contrast is one of the important factors in scintillation, but since scintillation (unlike brilliance and fire) is not fully studied and proven yet, it is easy for non-believers to talk down the importance of H&A (A in this example). From experience, I know that the crispness of the pattern adds enormously to the scintillation of the stone, but with many less crisp and pseudo-H&A''s in the market, the non-believers generally see these, and it strengthens their non-belief.

The symmetry-view, or hearts-view, is another matter. The idea that symmetry in a stone is beneficial has been intuitive for a long time. The initial preliminary results of AGS'' scintillation-studies show that symmetry is very beneficial for the scintillation of a stone. Again, this is something that we observe too. But scientific confirmation is pending. And again the same story: the term H&A is too broadly used.

In a sense, it is the same story as chocolate. In Belgium, chocolate has to contain a minimum level of 43% of cocoa paste. I should say ''had'' actually, since European legislation overrides Belgian rules. So, theoretically, one can now produce Belgian chocolate with lower levels of cocoa paste. And if that happens, soon people will be telling you that Belgian chocolate is actually not better tasting than English or Dutch ''chocolate'', which we would never call chocolate in the first place.

In the end, it is a never-ending-struggle. The more we convince people that H&A is worthwhile, the more other cutters will try to push pseudo-H&A''s as the real thing. And the more that happens, the more difficult it becomes again to convince people that H&A is worthwhile. To summarize the message: it is only H&A if both the Hearts and the Arrows-view show at least a very symmetrical and very crisp pattern, which is instantly visible in the H&A-viewer. This can be further elaborated, but most pseudo-H&A''s do not pass that test even.

Live long,
 
thank you both for your thoughtful responses
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the search tool only works for me about half the time for some reason, I've tried to search for some topics to prevent posting duplicate threads, but have had a little trouble on/off w/ that.

I was able to get an "arrows" search to finally pull up late last night and I read a few comments about H&A's being a little too perfect in larger stones and I could definitely relate to that.

John, I'm trying to convice DH, who is out of state right now to buy an H&A a WF rep is recommending to me.
I'm not in Houston so I can't see it but I trust the GIA report and other reports attached to this stone.
But I'm wondering if a "regular" Ideal cut may appeal more to me since it may have a little more chrarcter and a little less precision.
I want Ideal, definitely not just a "good" cut, but w/o seeing some stones compared it's hard to decide if there's such thing as "too ideal" for me personally.
KWIM?
Part of the reason the WF H&A is appealing to me is because I kow I can trust that cut w/o seeing it. Otherwise, I don't care about it being a branded stone.

I'm not completely ignorant about diamonds, but compared to most members here I guess I could be! LOL! The broker we used for years is in the same building w/ you. . . we just aren't able to drive down and my local jewelers are looking for some steep profits on their stones
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Date: 12/11/2007 1:55:51 PM
Author: ringabling
can I ask your opinions on this stone?
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-71343.htm#

This is the one I am waiting on DH to see or talk to WF about. The sales assoc says the medium blue flourescence counters the I color really well, she''s seen it in person and says it''s a stunning stone.

Is there a premium on this stone for it being H&A?
Click to expand...
Gorgeous diamond!!! I don''t know how much of a difference the cut makes to the price...
 
OT - Lorelei, your avatar is adorable
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Date: 12/11/2007 2:23:07 PM
Author: ringabling
OT - Lorelei, your avatar is adorable
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* blush* thank you!! To answer my above post better, there is a premium on the ACA brand, but as to how much I couldn't say.

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Date: 12/11/2007 1:55:51 PM
Author: ringabling
can I ask your opinions on this stone?
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-71343.htm#

This is the one I am waiting on DH to see or talk to WF about. The sales assoc says the medium blue flourescence counters the I color really well, she's seen it in person and says it's a stunning stone.

Is there a premium on this stone for it being H&A?
Click to expand...
There is a premium because this is A Cut Above H&A stone, which is cut to very strict proportions. Brian Gavin, the developer of this cut, decides which diamonds are ACA and which are not. It is also graded by AGS, which is a stricter lab, in terms of cut and light performance. That diamond looks like a stunner. Tell your DH he has the opportunity to make you a very happy lady...and I'm glad you put that rock on reserve
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Date: 12/11/2007 1:55:51 PM
Author: ringabling
can I ask your opinions on this stone?
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-71343.htm#

This is the one I am waiting on DH to see or talk to WF about. The sales assoc says the medium blue flourescence counters the I color really well, she''s seen it in person and says it''s a stunning stone.

Is there a premium on this stone for it being H&A?
Click to expand...
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I looked at some Ideals locally tonight same price for same size and color, ideal however, not H&A. I think the prices were before DH negotiates them down a bit.
Does that price seem good for a H&A that size?
 
For the type of stone you're getting, the price seems fair to me, but I'm not an expert in this area. I compared it to two similar stones. For a more realistic number, I would order the stone and have it appraised--by an independent appraiser--for its retail value and the specifics of the diamond. You have a 10 day return period. When looking a "ideal" stones, remember only an AGS graded diamond can be truly called ideal, so if the local shops are calling GIA--or God forbid EGL or IGI--diamonds ideal, they are not being accurate. GIA's top grade is excellent. I guess this means DH is on board with the upgrade
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BTW: The closest branded diamond I can compare with an ACA is Hearts on Fire. I own several pieces. If you want to compare apples to apples, look at HOF--that's the look of an ACA. Bring your smelling salts...the prices are a tad high
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Date: 12/11/2007 8:04:06 PM
Author: risingsun
For the type of stone you''re getting, the price seems fair to me. You could order the stone, have it appraised for retail value and compare to some of the ideals. You have a 10 day return period. Only an AGS graded diamond can be graded ideal, so if the local shops are calling GIA--or God forbid EGL or IGI--diamonds ideal, they are not being accurate. I guess this means DH is on board with the upgrade
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Click to expand...
the upgrade is actually his idea! LOL! Can you imagine!? And he''s anxious to get ''er done!
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I just don''t know how he feels about this H&A stone because he''s on the East coast working and I can only talk to him a few minutes at night. He can''t even call Traci @ WF to talk to her about it
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The stones locally were GIA but your comment made me remember that they were graded as excellent, not ideal. I have about 12 sticky notes w/ specs and info on them!
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Date: 12/11/2007 8:15:43 PM
Author: ringabling

Date: 12/11/2007 8:04:06 PM
Author: risingsun
For the type of stone you''re getting, the price seems fair to me. You could order the stone, have it appraised for retail value and compare to some of the ideals. You have a 10 day return period. Only an AGS graded diamond can be graded ideal, so if the local shops are calling GIA--or God forbid EGL or IGI--diamonds ideal, they are not being accurate. I guess this means DH is on board with the upgrade
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Click to expand...
the upgrade is actually his idea! LOL! Can you imagine!? And he''s anxious to get ''er done!
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I just don''t know how he feels about this H&A stone because he''s on the East coast working and I can only talk to him a few minutes at night. He can''t even call Traci @ WF to talk to her about it
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The stones locally were GIA but your comment made me remember that they were graded as excellent, not ideal. I have about 12 sticky notes w/ specs and info on them!
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Click to expand...
I added a few things to my original post...please read
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the "sister" store to the one I was in today showed mw a HoF diamond and gave me the tool to check out the hearts and arrows, was the 1st time I had ever seen it w/ my own eyes.
I guess that was probably 2 mos ago and it was about 1.5 I think. . . I can''t remember the price but I remember giggling about how high it was!
Seeing it is what makes me feel comfortable buying this one site unseen. But I REALLY like to pick them up and tilt them and stuff. . . hard decision!

OOOH, I hate that DH is out of town!
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any other opinions on the quality/price of the WF stone?
 
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