H&A or not, that''s the question

[1031Prime]

Hi all,

Thanks to PS members'' in-depth sharing of knowledge, my journey to find the right stone has been fun and educational.

My girl friend told me to get the "whitest", "brightest" ~1.5 carat stone, and she doesn''t care much about fire as long as the rock shines like crazy

I am from Canada, so due to the Canadian tax (14%) my budget is trimmed to 12K US (I am allocated around 1K for the setting).

Going for the best possible cut, I found two candidates from WF, both "A Cut Above":
1) G 1.548 SI2 12369 http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-232077.htm

This is already a bit over my budget, but not too far off. The issue is that it is a SI2 -- my former uneducated self really want to find a colorless (D-F) VS2 stone. It took me a lot of reading to convince myself that as long as it is eye-clean I can go for a lower clarity. But buying my girl friend a SI2, though we may not find any flaws by the naked eye, is making me feel that I am getting her something subpar.

2) F 1.552 SI1 13580 http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-231902.htm
If I increase the funds by 1.5K, I can get this one that would satisfy all my requirements. It pushes the color to the colorless range --- though I am sure that my gf nor I can tell the difference, it does play some kind of psychological factor here especially when whiteness is what she values.
The problem here is nothing new -- the price. I am more than willing to spend the 1.5K, but I want to be a mature and responsible husband, and I believe that even my girl friend would want the to go somewhere else (into our wedding plan or our future house).
[Though note that she is not aware of my rock hunting activities]

So I was asking myself -- do I really need to get a H&A diamond? I asked my girl friend before and she did not know of this pattern but expressed that she didn''t require this. I am considering these two stones cause I think I have faith in WF''s taste and selections.

The perfect scenario is for me to find a 1.5 carat ACA F VS2 fitting in my budget, but of course this is too far stretched.

Thank you for reading my muttering, and here is the advices that I am seeking for:
1) Is there any recommendations for other vendors who some super ideal rocks that may fit my budget and 4C criteria?
2) Is there some justification to the ACA brand that I should listen, that I should sacrifice both color and clarity to get the optimal cut?
WF''s homepage does explain that H&A diamonds, due to the aligned facets, perform better than other ideal cut diamonds under softer lighting conditions. Is this true? Is there other benefits aside from having fun to observe the arrows using the magnifying tools ?
3) To the extremist -- I am open to those who wants to convince me to spend more on THE stone for the woman I love. I have my principles, but not unalterable. If there are valid reasons I can always cut back in other less important spending to make up the 1.5K difference.

Thank you in advance!!!
1031Prime

 

[angeline]

I have had both WF ACA and their Expert Selection stones. I think you would be hard pushed to see a difference with the naked eye. MAny ES are still H&A. You need to ask WF about the eye-cleaness of the SI stones you are looking at. You can't tell much from the pics. Sometimes a stone will look terrible in a pic and it's beautifully eye-clean or vice-versa.

Here's anothe one to throw into the mix. If she likes white this one's white! and it's got great spread so it looks a lot bigger. The inclusions look to be white so you never know, it might just be eye-clean. I really advocate asking their honest opinion, they will be straight with you.

WF ES D SI2 $12,174

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

You certainly dont need the HandA if she has never heard of it. that would really come down to your region. In some places it is very famous and popular, other places consider it to be more of a gimmick and still others think it is cute, but not really important. I have read a@bit about the canadian perception but I am sure you know it better than me. So just make that decision based on how canadians percieve hearts and arrows. But I dont think you need to be overly concerened with it.

also, your gf specifically mentioned that she wants whiteness at sacrifice of fire. that is very doable. Its a little difficult for me to search virtual inventory on WF than others because they dont have the certs listed, but there are a number of options, maybe like this one? one possible example Here you can get the size and VS clarity, and you see that the price is under your limit meaning you stil lhave room to find a diamond with better color.

the fact is that if you buy an ACA you are going to get a very well balanced diamond, very white, lots of fire, lots of sparkle. AND you will be paying a PREMIUM for that diamond. However, your woman told you what she wants, so I think yo ushould get it for her. She wants a very white diamond that sacrifices on fire for white light, as large as you can get for the budget. I say call John Pollard and tell him that. I bet he can help you find a diamond that is larger than 1.5 that meets those requirements, probably with a larger table and better angles and LGF % to help emaphsis white light return at loss of fire.

In that way you will save money on the premiums associated with ACA, and save money on premiums associated with Ideal cut diamonds and the premiums associated with Hearts and Arrows, and that money you save can go toward getting her all three a higher color, higher clarity, and larger diamond, as sacrificing those premiums will free up alot of funds you can then spend on those three qualities.

This, I would def recommend because A, it is what she wants. and B, someone like Mr. Pollard (if I am spelling his name correctly) can use the resources he has and his excellent knowledge to find you a diamond outside of ideal cut proportionjs that will have incredible light performance, specifically in the nature of white light return. Every cut will have certain light return qualities, and he and others here on PS can certainly help to find one of those@that more specifically meets HER request than an ACA would. I dont have as much knowledge as john and others, but Ill go hunt for a few such examples anyway!

Also, even if you disregard all of the above, which would be reasonable as ACA ideal type quality cuts would certainly be beautiful and I doubt she would be unahppy with its performance, I really think you should sacrifice the premiums based on namebrand ACA of Hearts and Arrows to get her a higher color, for the sake that she has specifically requested that it be PARTICULARLY white and that there are a number of ideal cut non-ACA options available that will free up the funds to improve on that color. Seems to me that would be the least you coudl do to meet her request?

 

[1031Prime]

Wow I am overwhelmed by the quick responses!!
Thank you so much everyone!

Yes I agree that indeed I should consider shifting the funds from the H&A premium to upgrade the color/clarity.

Probably I won''t do too much to the size as my girl friend is afraid that a stone above 1.5 may interfere her from daily work, as she has every intention to wear it daily. (I would really appreciate if someone can help clarifying this may be the case).

Either way I am very excited now as it seems that many new options have opened!!!
Thanks again!!

1031Prime

 

[JulieN]

the setting has more to do with how much it will get in the way, than the difference between a 1.25 ct and a 1.5 ct stone.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

there are some like this that might be worht finding out more about:

GIA 1.7ct F VS2 13.5k

or you might think about looking at some EGL certs, as they can have good diamonds as well and with the help of WF you might be able to find a good one

EGS 10k


EGL D VS2 1.7ct 14.5


Or if you are happy with your 1.5ct size then there are plenty of options like these. All of the following are GIA cert 1.5 or greater, at@least VG VG sym and polish, many better, and all are listed on Whiteflash, many of them are probably triple EX or even AGS0 candidates pending angles, consistency of cut and rounding, and some of them have larger tables like I mentioned looking for above. also note that some of these have already been listed as ES, others have not, probably because nobody has requested the cert pulled and they havent gotten enough information to determine it merits that title yet:

GIA F VS2 1.5ct 10k

GIA 1.56 G VS2 11.5k

GIA 1.53 Prob. TripEX F VS2 for 12K.

GIA E VS2 59% table VG VG for 13k

GIA D VS2 for 12.250, looks like worth getting cert

Here is one of a numerous 60/60 E VS2 GIA that might be right up her White light return alley? if you found one with the right angles eh?

There are alot more and I limited my depth to 60-61.8% and table to 55-60% so if these failed once pullling the certs and inspecting the angles then there are alot out there and some of them woudl have angles that would either match AGS0 specs or fit other specs to emphasize white light return. I am sure that john or Jamie can help you sort through them to meet what you are looking for though, and if you do veer off of AGS 0 specs then they always have test, IS images, etc they can do to verify that the diamond is performing well and giving excellent white light return! and I bet someone there can check it out for you themselves once you actually settle on one and if it is john at least I am sure you can trust an honest opinion, though I am sure they have many other people, I would personally call on him if possible just do to his willingness to help out on this site. happy hunting!

 

[angeline]

The only thing about virtual stone like WHFSR has listed is that you will have to pay for each one that you want WF to bring in, to get the info like the idealscope, photos and Sarin. You basically pay to ship back any stones that you don''t decide to keep. Shipping for that price stone mght be around $90. So it can add up fast if you don''t find one you like.

I did this recently in my search and paid for 3 stones before I settled on an ES. Extra cost was $360. SOmetimes they can sound great on paper but once you get the idealscope and pics they''re not as good as they sound. Not to discourage you because you can find good stones this way, it''s just a harder way to do it and the cost can add up. Just something to bear in mind.

 

[phoenixgirl]

Since you have such a clear idea of what you want and seem to be looking only at WF stones (correct?), why not give them a call, tell them your criteria, and see what they recommend? They might have stones not yet on their website that would fit what you want.

I think that if you can find an Expert Selection stone that fits your other criteria, that would be a great way to squeeze a little more out of your budge color and clarity-wise. It''s not as though you''re going from A Cut Above quality to average mall quality cut; ES H&A stones can still be quite stunning and better cut than most of the stones out there.

I do wear my e-ring daily. It''s 1.14 carats, and I was worried that it would be too big (what a fool I was!) and had it set low in a Vatche X-prong setting (plus I really loved that setting). But already I have dreams of a bigger diamond! I think your girlfriend will be surprised how quickly "possibly too big" goes to "just right" (and hopefully stays there instead of heading into the "maybe could be bigger" category!).

However, if she really is leery of a 1.5 carat, you''d have an easier time getting H&A, high color and higher clarity in the 1.25 to 1.4 carat range.

BTW, I found this 1.57 G SI1 SuperbCert H&A stone for just about your budget, but I don''t think this company offers an upgrade program if that is important to you.

When you talk to White Flash, remember to ask for the Price Scope discount (5% off)!

 

[Ellen]

This one is as close to your perfect scenario as you can get. A great stone, with the "look" of a 1.5 (trust me, no one could tell, unless you want bragging rights), a colorless stone, not technically, but you won''t see any in a G, peace of mind clarity, and a price that fits your budget. (bankwire price at bottom of info on right)

I have purchased from this vendor as well as WF, both are on the same level as far as reputation goes.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

that is a pretty nice selection, I had capped my search off at 1.5 for the sake of reducing search numbers. But again, thats assuming you want a very well balanced performance. If she knows what she is talking about then it may be best not to actually aim for "ideal" cuts eh? of course if she doesn''t know what she is talking about then aim for ideal.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/5/2007 12:25:18 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
that is a pretty nice selection, I had capped my search off at 1.5 for the sake of reducing search numbers. But again, thats assuming you want a very well balanced performance. If she knows what she is talking about then it may be best not to actually aim for 'ideal' cuts eh? of course if she doesn't know what she is talking about then aim for ideal.

I always look for that size when someone wants a 1.5, as they can be a great bargain, as noted. I happen to have the same size.

And I would venture to guess, she's not seen many, if any ideal cuts. That is in no way a slam, I hadn't either until I started looking for my upgrade. I say, if he can find an ideal in his price range, go for it. It will knock her socks off, and he/she will never regret it.