Guess the Color...

[Jennifee]

So I'm in the market for an oval and this one was presented to me. Its certificate is from HRD (which to be honest I have never heard of). I'm a little skeptical about the color grading... Its graded as an H but to me doesn't really seem like it... I'm no expert though! Please let me know on your thoughts on color or anything else you see that sticks out! Thanks!!!

 

[LLJsmom]

Maybe it’s the lighting but that looks more colored than an H, even for an oval. Actually, it maybe your hand that is causing me to see more color. Do you have pics of it upside down on white paper? Btw, I have heard of HRD. I understand that it is respected in Europe.

 

[tkyasx78]

Ovals show the most color in the “crushed ice look” areas( same for marquise) of the Stone.

It is hard to see what the actual color is without it unset and upside down and next to master set.

 

[AV_]

Beautiful Oval!

HRD is an old Antwerp joint
http://hrdantwerp.com/en/hrd-antwerp

I never knew what exactly it is that might obligate labs to keep the same technical definitions of grades, and the assumption seems to be that they, in fact, do not. Perhaps unjust, yet - paying for re-grading seems less of a hassle than second-guessing like this.

2c

 

[Karl_K]

1: its impossible to tell a color grade from a photo so I cant help you there.
2: the color in the last 3 pictures is environmental and fire not the stone.

There is no way I can give a solid professional opinion without looking at the stone in person and a personal opinion is limited by the data available. I like what I see so far.
That does not mean im saying its good or bad as I dont have enough data.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

HRD is a very well respected lab in Europe. My family jeweler told me on multiple occasions that he thinks they are more highly regarded in German jewelry circles than GIA. I cannot say anything about that myself , just repeating what I heard.
I have seen several outstanding (big and high color +clarity) stones with HRD rather than GIA reports, though, and so I'd think they are on par with GIA.
If it's a big stone I'd probably regrade for selling to the US

 

[Karl_K]

HRD has a mixed reputation depending on who you ask, but in general world wide is not thought of as highly as GIA.

 

[LaylaR]

Actually, HRD is very well regarded in Europe.

Fancies do not hide body color well. Some of them are worse than others about that. The color grade is probably correct, ovals show color. Some of them are worse about it than others.

Are you used to looking at well cut rounds for color comparison and color tolerance? Because that might be the problem. The round shape is unique suited for light return and calibrated light performance can hide a lot of body color.

So I wouldn't compare a well cut round H face up to an oval and expect them to look the same color. Face down... okay. But face up fancies have a distinct disadvantage with body color in comparison to a well cut round.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Hard to say but as suggested get a photo face down with a neutral background and/or ask for a comparison with a master set or some other stone with a known grade to compare them.

 

[LaylaR]

Hard to say but as suggested get a photo face down with a neutral background and/or ask for a comparison with a master set or some other stone with a known grade to compare them.

In general:
Any reputable dealer they will be honest with you about how accurate they feel the color grade of a non-GIA diamond is on a GIA scale if you ask them.

Also, keep in mind color is a range. Not only that but the ranges are not equal in size. What do I mean by that?

D-E-F are very tight, small ranges. The degree of difference between them is very slight. As you move farther down the color scale the ranges get larger. So a the degree of difference between 'high' I color that misses H by a hair versus a low "I" that is borderline J is about the same at the difference between D-F.

What does that mean? In a very well cut round? Not so much face up. High I, low I? Meh. Seriously. We stick H's and I's side by side and our clients can't tell face up. I'd set a three stone with our H's and I's side by side any day and it wouldn't matter how high or low they were. The cut compensates for the body color difference.

But in a fancy... the cut can't compensate so you see the body color even face up shining through. And since the color ranges are larger in the near colorless range the difference between a G and an H is going to larger than the difference between an E and an F. And if that diamond is a low H... close to an I, then you have a diamond that is both accurately graded at H and noticeably tinted to some.

 

[rockysalamander]

Do you like it in person?

 

[Stephan]

Here 2 reports to compare:
GIA 6183487175
HRD 14000576001
Same diamond
Color and angle differences.

 

[Matilda]

To my experienced eye tat looks like a K to me, just because of the greenish yellow tint...although It may very well be the photo/environment. Also I am no experts could be very very wrong!!! Just my thoughts

 

[yssie]

This stone’s pavilion faceting is a good choice for someone who dislikes the bow tie obstruction pattern.

I had a 3ct HRD J for a couple of weeks at one point. It was the most colourless 3ct J I’d ever seen. Just one anecdote.

 

[Jennifee]

Thank you everyone for your responses!!! I am working on getting some better images to share!

 

[Jennifee]

Do you like it in person?

The diamond is in NY and I'm in CA so I haven't seen it in person and probably won't until I purchase... I'm working with IDJ and have worked with them before. I totally trust them I just think its harder to purchase a fancy shape from a distance and the certification company is new to me.

 

[Jennifee]

In general:
Any reputable dealer they will be honest with you about how accurate they feel the color grade of a non-GIA diamond is on a GIA scale if you ask them.

Also, keep in mind color is a range. Not only that but the ranges are not equal in size. What do I mean by that?

D-E-F are very tight, small ranges. The degree of difference between them is very slight. As you move farther down the color scale the ranges get larger. So a the degree of difference between 'high' I color that misses H by a hair versus a low "I" that is borderline J is about the same at the difference between D-F.

What does that mean? In a very well cut round? Not so much face up. High I, low I? Meh. Seriously. We stick H's and I's side by side and our clients can't tell face up. I'd set a three stone with our H's and I's side by side any day and it wouldn't matter how high or low they were. The cut compensates for the body color difference.

But in a fancy... the cut can't compensate so you see the body color even face up shining through. And since the color ranges are larger in the near colorless range the difference between a G and an H is going to larger than the difference between an E and an F. And if that diamond is a low H... close to an I, then you have a diamond that is both accurately graded at H and noticeably tinted to some.

This makes a lot of sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain it so well! I am pretty much comparing it to my experience with purchasing round diamonds. I currently have a triple excellent G and then a OEC K.

 

[Jennifee]

Hard to say but as suggested get a photo face down with a neutral background and/or ask for a comparison with a master set or some other stone with a known grade to compare them.

THank you for the suggestion! I have asked for that and am waiting to receive them.

 

[sledge]

Here 2 reports to compare:
GIA 6183487175
HRD 14000576001
Same diamond
Color and angle differences.

Interesting observation. I'm not sure it confirms one lab is more accurate than the other. I think we would need more than one observation to make such a statement. Straight up, I've heard of HRD but not dealt with them so I have no feel to their accuracy (and not people's "feelings" about them).

A couple of thoughts based on this isolated case.

• GIA K color vs HRD J color grade
  • Color grading is subjective as it's done by humans.
  • As @LaylaR pointed out, color grades aren't pinpoint precision but rather a range which grows as you go further down the scale.
  • Most major labs allow one grade deviation in color/clarity because of the subjective nature of grading.
  • During grading a "master set" of stones is used to determine color grade by both AGS & GIA. The stones are graded and selected based on GIA criteria. I am not certain HRD's policies on the master set, but if reputable as noted, it should follow a similar structure. Assuming that is true, there will naturally be some small degree of variation introduced between the original master set and subsequent master sets, even though they are selected with precision.
  • In the case of GIA, and I presume the other labs as well, they utilize controlled lighting to simulate daylight conditions and as a result you get some UV radiation from the lights they utilize to emulate these conditions. As such, if the stone has fluorescence it can slightly & temporarily affect (possibly enhance) the color grade of the stone in question. https://www.gia.edu/gia-faq-analysis-grading-ultraviolet-light-grading
  • In regards to the above point, I might note that GIA lists this particular stone to have a fluor grade as faint, whereas HRD recognizes it as slight.
• GIA 35 crown vs HRD 35.2 crown
  • Given the close proximity of the values, I would assume you might have slight machine calibration issues.
  • But I presume the main reason is because HRD foregoes the rounding process that GIA implements. We also see this occur in stones that have both GIA and AGS lab reports. Without rounding, it's unusual to land on even numbers.
• GIA 41 crown vs HRD 41.1 crown
  • Same thoughts as above

I found a few PDF's from HRD of interest as well as it breakdowns how they analyze their word descriptions to hard analytical data. Also, they have a separate PDF for defining their H&A certification.

https://hrdantwerp.com/sites/default/files/2018-09/170063_hrd_cut_grade_a4_en_web.pdf

https://www.hrdantwerp.com/sites/default/files/2018-05/Article2_ Relation_HA_and_cut_parameters.pdf

Another interesting discussion took flight here not long ago. Unfortunately it didn't gain much speed but I found the content and @oldminer's comments rather interesting.

I'm not sure this does much for guessing the correct color of the oval stone in question, but I hope we can all walk away knowing a little more about HRD, as we have many PS'ers around the globe where GIA/AGS may not be the dominant lab.

 

[LaylaR]

This makes a lot of sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain it so well! I am pretty much comparing it to my experience with purchasing round diamonds. I currently have a triple excellent G and then a OEC K.

Hi Jennifee,

You are welcome.

I had a Transitional K color myself. NO ONE (And I mean no one-- PSer or Vendor) believed me when I told them that diamond was a GIA K face up. It looked whiter than white and when people guessed the color it was "H" until they really looked at it from the side. You having a GIA 3X G and a (I am assuming) well cut OEC is probably where the confusion is coming from.

I was in a local store here in Nor Cal-- oh probably ten years ago now-- and I was looking at some fancy diamonds (they have a large selection of large fancy diamonds in pretty settings to browse) and I was very surprised at how much body color some of them showed. Also in that trip, I saw for myself that larger fancy diamonds show more body color than smaller ones. Since you are looking at a 4 carat diamond, it's going to be an adjustment going from rounds to ovals.

Here 2 reports to compare:
GIA 6183487175
HRD 14000576001
Same diamond
Color and angle differences.

Stephan, The concern there is that you are assuming that GIA is correct. GIA makes a lot of mistakes. The HRD grade could easily be the more accurate one. And those same lab reports could be evidence of GIA's unreliability.

GIA has very high volume. Several labs. They need a LOT of graders. Just like anything else, there are people better at their job and people worse at their job. With the demand and volume GIA has quality control is difficult. And so is consistency of product. AGS and HRD have smaller labs and less volume.

CBI has one of the best graders in the world. She is the person the FBI and Interpol call to evaluate diamonds when they need an expert. She grades each diamond at CBI, so they have consistent grading by ONE person, and that one person is an authority in what they do. Why do I mention this?

CBI submits diamonds to GIA (overseas clients want GIA lab reports), and not only are they not infallible, they are just plain fallible and it's not getting better... in the last 18 months it has gotten worse. So disparate reports are not evidence of non-GIA labs being unreliable. It's just a difference of opinion, as long as both labs are reputable, until you get a tie breaker from an excellent independent appraiser (or your vendor if they are very good) takes a look at it and tells you which set of stats they agree with based on their in person examination of the diamond.

 

[Stephan]

Stephan, The concern there is that you are assuming that GIA is correct. GIA makes a lot of mistakes. The HRD grade could easily be the more accurate one. And those same lab reports could be evidence of GIA's unreliability.

Hi Layla, you are assuming that I'm assuming that GIA is correct, and yes it is what I think. Here is a video of the diamond:

 

[LaylaR]

I don't understand what I am supposed to see Stephan. Can you clarify? Stand alone videos are not reliable for color. I am not getting any volume though. Am I missing something?

 

[Stephan]

The side view is more tinted than most of the J diamonds I saw. I can understand you may not see it in one video.

 

[Bron357]

Reports aside, do you LOVE the diamond?
It’s a very well cut oval and that shape will show more yellow toning than a similar colour graded RB diamond.
The real question should be “does the ever so slight yellow toning bother me now” because if it does it will probably start bugging you more as time passes. That is an expensive diamond, you want it to be one you love a lot!

 

[LaylaR]

The side view is more tinted than most of the J diamonds I saw. I can understand you may not see it in one video.

Videos can unfortunately be very inaccurate for color. We just did a perfectly matched pair of Cut to Order 3+ carat diamonds for earrings. Depending on which stone sat in which side of the tray they looked alternately tinted. First one looked darker, and we tried to compensate for that with the shadows and lighting and camera set up. Then we switched the diamonds and the same thing happened with the other diamond. Then we played with them and tried our best to get them to look the same, but ultimately, it was not a matter of the diamond body color. It was due to the lighting and video set up and the shadows. So even when you have diamonds side by side in the same video... there are other factors that influence color appearance in particular.

GIA says outright that within one grade with color and clarity there might be disparity. As you know, is a subjective not objective call. And, of course even if the diamond in the video you posted is a true K, one diamond as an example doesn't mean that HPD is more unreliable than GIA as a whole. They have a very good reputation in Europe for both quality control and accuracy. And that's my only point. There is no evidence that this 4 carat H oval is graded incorrectly. It's a very large fancy shape which are known to have more body color. So an HRD lab report in and of itself is not indicative of a color misgrade.

Since Jennifee is spending, I assume, a lot of money on this diamond it might be a good time to see the diamond for herself. Ultimately the color grade is a piece of paper. It could be a true H and still be too tinted for her. Or it could be the photography or something else. It's all just conjecture at this point. So, to me, it is worth the shipping fees to gauge the appearance of the diamond in person.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

This exactly. Price difference aside, does the grade and brand on the report actually change how you feel about the diamond when you look at it? If you love it you love it, who cares if it’s “a grade or so out” to what you believe it should be. If it’s a good price and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, I wouldn’t be too concerned with the reputation of the labs and what colour it absolutely is. If the shoe fits

 

[sledge]

This exactly. Price difference aside, does the grade and brand on the report actually change how you feel about the diamond when you look at it? If you love it you love it, who cares if it’s “a grade or so out” to what you believe it should be. If it’s a good price and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, I wouldn’t be too concerned with the reputation of the labs and what colour it absolutely is. If the shoe fits

Yes, within limitations.

Being off one color or clarity grade may not affect the beauty and feeling towards the stone in terms of personal satisfaction; however, those values are detrimental in determining fair market value.

With all other things being equal a 4ct H will sell for a higher value than a 4ct I/J.

The problem is the OP has inexperience with ovals and using metrics associated with a round stone to make a layman's assessment of color (to her eyes). The matter is further complicated by the fact the OP is unfamiliar with and consequently untrusting of the HRD cert.

So in addition to figuring out her own color awareness and tolerance in this shape, she is struggling to know the right dollars to spend on this stone. Which is intensified by the size and consequently overall expense of such a purchase.

My 2 cents is to get the stone. Make an assessment in the flesh and blood. If the OP's eyes are happy with what they see then send to an independent and qualified appraiser to confirm color, value, etc.

If the appraisal comes back different than the HRD report then she can send the stone back or have valid leverage to negotiate a better price (assuming she likes what she sees).

Depending on location of the OP, it may be beneficial to recertify under GIA later on if she decides to sell/trade the stone so it's easier to market and move a stone where GIA is well known and trusted but HRD isn't.

I want to be very clear I am not bashing HRD but rather I believe the perception is they aren't equal. Unfortunately until a person is convinced and truly believes in something different, then their perception IS their reality.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HRD is simply not on the same level as GIA. Remember, the European diamond market for stones above .50ct is pretty much non existent outside the UK.
Think EGL when you’re presented with a stone graded by HRD.
By all means, some of the grades may be correct. But the discrepancies I’ve personally seen- and many of them- lead me to advise that HRD is more like EGL than GIA

 

[Rockdiamond]

To clarify- the presence of an HRD report does not mean there’s anything wrong with a given diamond. Also I’m not making any comment on the stone being considered.

 

[Jennifee]

HRD is simply not on the same level as GIA. Remember, the European diamond market for stones above .50ct is pretty much non existent outside the UK.
Think EGL when you’re presented with a stone graded by HRD.
By all means, some of the grades may be correct. But the discrepancies I’ve personally seen- and many of them- lead me to advise that HRD is more like EGL than GIA

So as I am awaiting more pictures and videos, I have to say this is all making me a little nervous! I also didn't mention that the cert also says is has medium fluorescence...I have a RB with fluorescence but on the cert from GIA it specifies that it is "medium blue" which IMO is really pretty and unique.... So since this HRD cert does not specify I'm wondering what it will look like in direct sun..... Hopefully IDJ will help me out with this.....