gia vs egl purchase advice

[stonedtodeath]

I have two B&M vendors with 1.26 D SI2 stones, but can't really get a feel for which stone might be the best bet.  Neither will let me take the stone for appraisal w/out a full purchase (supposedly refundable, but I'm a little concerned about laying out the $ first).  I have spent a lot of time cruising this forum and bought an Ideal-scope.  Both look about the same to my very amaturish eye, pretty pink, w/what looks like a small amount of leakage, in the table,  but both are better than the others I have had the chance to view with the device.  I have yet to see an "AGS000" with it or a "super ideal" so I can't say I know exactly what I should be using as a benchmark.  I did buy the Ideal-cut calibration CZ and have looked carefully at the Ideal-scope website grading charts.  But I think real-world lighting conditions, and color saturation characteristics are different from what we see on computer screen ideal-scope images.  Anyway, they both have nice dark arrows, etc...

Here's, the rub. One stone is an EGL and one is a GIA. The GIA is $7400 and the EGL is $6000. The EGL vendor provided the attached Megascope report, which tags it as AGS 2, (if you look at the shallow crown angles on the left and the one crown facet of 36.1 on the right you can see that this might be part of the issue, but the report shows "0" next to the crown angle data, so I'm not sure. The stone is eyeclean, with a very small feathers/inclusions under the upper girdle facets mostly. It gets the supposed Excellent Ideal cut, w/EX/EX polish/symmetry. Their store is mostly pretty dim and strong spotlights, which make the stone appear rather firey, but dark otherwise. When I voiced suspicion about EGL and color grading issues, they took out a D GIA certed stone and placed both side-by-side in a white folded card. They looked identical to my untrained eye, having now looked, though, at several stones down to H color in this way. They will finance at 0% and offer to exchange Scott Kay/Tacori settings, depending on my fiance's reaction to my first choice-- very important, since my money situation is tight, and I'm partial to the Scott Kay setting, but she has seen and likes Tacori.

The GIA stone (see attached cert) is EX/EX with one small black inclusion deep off-center in the pavilion. It casts a few reflections under the bezel facets, but all this is very small, and localized. There is also an inclusion under a bezel facet, but again small, possibly hideable. The stone is totally eyeclean even from quite close up. Their store is bright mixed natural and flourescent office lighting. The stone appears white, with the contrasting pavilion mains looking nice and dark under the table, but fire is very reduced. They will not provide a detailed sarin report, so I'm left with their very basic sarin data with a top down of bezel angles only and sideview report :

crown angle: 34.5 (34.0 - 34.9) (the two 34.0's are across from a 34.7's and the 34.9 is across from a 34.2, others are 34.7 or 34.4)
crown height: 14.8
pav. angle: 40.8 (I have no min/max data)
pav. depth: 42.9
table size: 57
total depth: 61.2 (the Gia Cert reads 60.9, is this variance significant? Does it mean all this data is way off?)
culet: 1.3
girdle: 1.15-2.44
star/upper%: 50/50

If I remember correctly the GIA stone gets and HCA of 1.7 w/in AGS 0 proportions, and the EGL is .8, but just outside of the left edge of the AGS 0 range.

The GIA store offers no financing, carries only the Tacori, but here's the deal: THEY HAVE THE GIA STONE!!!!! AND I THINK I LIKE IT BETTER, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHY. Am I a fool to deal with no financing, no setting choice, and a $1400 price premium for that GIA stone!!!! The EGL stone looks great, too!! Totally eyeclean. maybe it's just a dark store setting that 's bothering me. Both stores have been extremely gracious, and I would love to give them both the sale. I'm still shopping online and would like to get the best of both worlds with truly documented ideal stone that has been appraised, and in a great setting, but so far this is where I'm at and I need to make a move SOON!! I leave it to you. How bad is that EGL stone anyway? Everybody trashes EGL. Is it legit criticism in this case? Are both of these stones duds? How very much better will a true super ideal AGS 0 stone be anyway? Should these stones look EXACTLY like the calibration CZ to be good? Oh, so very many questions. This has all been very fun, by the way, in large part because of all the wonderful information made available through this site. The EGL megascope is below followed in the next two posts by the certs.

 

[stonedtodeath]

Here''s the EGL cert.

 

[stonedtodeath]

Here''s the GIA cert.

 

[Dancing Fire]

the EGL stone has a pretty wide crown angle variance (32.4-36.1)

 

[stonedtodeath]

I agree. The GIA stone varies from 34.0-34.9, don''t know if this better enough to improve its performance.

 

[denverappraiser]

Get the return offer in writing and then go get it appraised. The dealer is being reasonable to not allow their stone to walk out their door in the hands of a stranger (you) without payment first. You want it appraised by an appraiser chosen by you, not them, so it does you no good to have them send it to their guy. The obvious solution is for you to pay them and get a refund if you decide you aren’t happy. If you don’t feel you can trust the jeweler’s return policy, you shouldn’t be shopping there at all. The offer should be something like this:

At least 10 days, 100% refund, any reason as long as you don’t lose or damage it. No restocking fees. No qualifiers about what is and what is not an acceptable reason. Disapproval by your astrologer or your mother should be sufficient to comply with the policy.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[fire&ice]

Did you compare the EGL and GIA D stones at one vendor face down? Color is graded face down not face up. Get them to put both stones face down on a white piece of paper. Do you see a difference between color in this circumstance?

Second, look at the GIA (other vendor) & EGL (other vendor) under different lights. Scrutinize both as to inclusions & whether either is eye clean.

If you answer is yes to both senarios - I would tend to go with the EGL stone. It''s more than 20% cheaper. For your piece of mind, I''d have the stone appraised & if it didn''t check out to be what you want - you can always return it. Your out the appraisal. But, you also could be saving yourself 1400.00 & have the option of free financing.

Are either places negotiable or is this their bottom line?

Good luck.

 

[codex57]

Also, compare out of those jeweler lights. Those can make a piece of dog poop look brilliant.

One store I went to had those lights. A little dim, with strong spotlight things (I just call them jeweler lights) over the display cases. Owner showed me a stone he said was a poor cut. Looked pretty darn good to me. Then, he let me go into the back of his store where he had all his equipment. In the standard flourescent office lighting he had there, I could immediately tell the poor cut one really was dull and lifeless. Also, when checking color, I sat in the office lighting and yeah, the white tray was used but I looked at the stones upside down to compare color. If you look at them upright, even with that tray, it''s real hard to see the color difference.

 

[stonedtodeath]

O.K. just to follow up. I did have the stones turned upside down in the white card, but again this was in a rather darkish incandescent lit showroom. If the EGL did turn out to be an "E" grade, that makes little difference to me --- I just don''t want to have to pay for a "D", which given its discounted price wouldn''t be the case in any event.

Both stones are totally eyeclean,even when scrutinized from close up, so that''s a plus for the EGL stone.

The GIA vendor has offered to knock another $600 off their stone.

I''m trying to secure another means of 0% financing to make this a doable option, plus they do have a 90-day interest-free payment plan available. They have a been extremely helpful and pleasant to work with (not that the others have not), so I have basically committed to make the purchase from them, pending a resolution to my financing. Am I nuts to pay the now extra $800 for this GIA stone?

As for an appraisal, I''m afraid time is now of the essence, and I will likely be forced to dispense with that step (although I know some would strongly urge me to get one at whatever sacrifice to a timely proposal).

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/30/2005 11:23:28 PM
Author: stonedtodeath
O.K. just to follow up. I did have the stones turned upside down in the white card, but again this was in a rather darkish incandescent lit showroom. If the EGL did turn out to be an ''E'' grade, that makes little difference to me --- I just don''t want to have to pay for a ''D'', which given its discounted price wouldn''t be the case in any event.

Both stones are totally eyeclean,even when scrutinized from close up, so that''s a plus for the EGL stone.

The GIA vendor has offered to knock another $600 off their stone.

I''m trying to secure another means of 0% financing to make this a doable option, plus they do have a 90-day interest-free payment plan available. They have a been extremely helpful and pleasant to work with (not that the others have not), so I have basically committed to make the purchase from them, pending a resolution to my financing. Am I nuts to pay the now extra $800 for this GIA stone?

As for an appraisal, I''m afraid time is now of the essence, and I will likely be forced to dispense with that step (although I know some would strongly urge me to get one at whatever sacrifice to a timely proposal).

if i were in your situation i''ll pay the extra $800 for the GIA stone,that''s a "no brainer" because in the future if you decide to upgrade, a gia cert stone will worth some weight but,teh EGL europe cert.

 

[stonedtodeath]

O.K. Are you ready for this? I told the EGL store of my decision to move on the GIA stone after the price break, and told them how very happy I was with their service, but that I just couldn''t buy a ring from both! Well, guess what! They countered by offering another EGL stone, this time a 1.22 F VS2 for $6300 (a hefty discount off rap, and good, even if you do a worst case assessment and assume both color and clarity are misgraded). I asked for their megascope report and, after seeing that it was cut a little deep, with slightly deep pavilion angles, and a rather narrow spread, (all cut factors I learned about thanks to this site) I told them I just didn''t feel comfortable backing out of my GIA stone after everything the other store had gone through to get it in for me, and besides the F VS2 stone just did not have what I felt were good numbers. About half an hour later, they called me with another EGL stone with the following stats:

1.51 G SI1 "Excellent Ideal"

table 55.8 (55.3-56.1)
pavilion angle 40.9 (40.7-41.0
crown angle 34.5 (34.4 - 34.7)
t.depth 62.3
Pav depth 43
crown depth 15
girdle sl. thk 2.6 (2.3-2.9)

AGS proportion 0

Their Price: $7000 (listed as 11,000 + on their website) -- $200 more than the GIA 1.26 D SI2 which was dropped to $6800

On the megascope pavillion facets 3-5 are 41.0 and the rest are either 40.8 or 40.7. I know 41.0 is a crucial figure, which is why I give it second mention here ( but I was hoping someone would tell if I should be concerned based on this info.).

Now what do I do? The numbers look pretty darned good here. I''m no color snob. I only landed on the DEF range because I noticed that clarity seems to have a greater impact on price, so why not pay the extra $700 or so in my clarity (SI2) and size (+/-1.25) and snag a DEF? Thecolorless range will certainly look great in the platinum settings I have chosen, which show the entire pavilion. G cetainly does not scare me. And this stone is far larger than I ever imagined I could afford, with a cut that looks pretty safe.

I''ve asked to see the stone tomorrow, and that they lay out a couple of GIA F,G,H stones face down in a white card, so I can at least see if this stone is really a G. What do you think? The price is extremely attractive, made possible,they tell me, by the very large inventory they carry. These folks have been extremely accommodating and fun to work with. I must say the pendulum seems very much in their favor with this, assuming I don''t go in tomorrow and see a real dud. I''ll bring in my Ideal-Scope, CZ, Ideal Light, etc.. and see what there is to see (any advice there is welcome). I am a little concerned that the other store may freak out and threaten to keep my deposit of $1000 if I bail on them. But they have so far been totally courteous and told me repeatedly that the deposit was fully refundable at any time for any reason, and gave me that assurance in an e-mail. I don''t want to walk on them, but I just feel like a fool not to consider the deal that has been put before me.

Any advice is most welcome!

 

[Dancing Fire]

$4000 discount off the top.

is this another EGL europe cert? if so,EGL europe cert always sell for a lower premium than gia/ags cert.i''ll tell you why this stone weights 1.51ct because,of the FAT girdle.the cutter wanted to make sure this stone weight 1.50+ct to get the extra premium for that magic # (1.5ct weight)

 

[stonedtodeath]

It is an EGL Israel (Yikes!) cert. and , yes, I figured the that girdle was left relatively fat to ensure the 1.50c monster premium. However, just looking at the crown and pav angles, it doesn''t look like this should have too great an impact on the stone''s performance, and the bottom line, is that still has a huge spread compared to the 1.26 stones, and not particularly bad spread compared to the other 1.51 stones I''ve checked out (granted that''s not many, since this all came up so suddenly). But , based on the other numbers, and the price, assuming it is eyeclean and looks good colorwise, and sparkles, how good of a deal is this? I know that''s hard to figure, but just curious.

 

[valeria101]

If I understand it right, one of these EGL stones was graded "D" on paper and turned out "E" after appraisal. That doesn't sound like much of a disaster, given price & all.

Since you get to see these stones, I would not worry much about what those angles are and how they vary. Since these are not supposed to be H&A anyway and the light return is there (taking what you say about the IdealScope reality check for good)... what else matters ?

As for price, 7k would be nice even for 1.4cts H/SI1 with GIA paper. And among "ideals" I/SI1 would be more.

IMO, take this one through IdealScope and Appraisal and go for it

 

[stonedtodeath]

Actually, the original EGL D SI 2 stone did not grade as an E. We compared it upsided down next to a GIA D on a white card and it looked fine, as best we could see, given the jewelry lights, etc... What I was getting at, was simply the fact that, based on the low price, even if we were wrong, and it really would re-grade as an E if sent to GIA, it wouldn''t be a bad value.

Thanks for the tip in the relative value it might have in comparison to GIA/Ideal stones. I''m going to post for advice on reading my ideal-scope, maybe you''ll have a thought there, too.

 

[RockDoc]

Comparing color grades without Diamond color comparison diamonds and under jewelry store lighting...

That''s a big no no. It is not the way to grade color.


Find a really competent, independent gemologist who has DIAMOND color master comparison diamonds and have him check both stones.

I side with the GIA stone, over the EGL one. The inclusions are away from the girdle in that stone, and you can rely on the grading being reasonably accurrate.

But you''re best bet for comparison, is to get help.

Buy the diamond- not the price..

Rockdoc

 

[stonedtodeath]

Thanks for the tip on color grading, Rockdoc. I''m not surprised to hear that we did a very half-baked color grading comparison. Unfortunately, I''ve run down to the wire with shopping/comparing stones, reading endlessly on Pricescope and elsewere, ordering the Ideal-scope, getting financing, finding setting, etc... Now, despite my better judgement, I''m probably going to have to ditch the independant appraisal part of the equation. That said I''m not sure if you were referring to the original EGL D SI2 1.26 certed stone, (the one with the cert posted), or the second one they offered in response to the lowered price of the GIA stone. The one I''m now presented with is the EGL 1.51 G SI 1, brand new stone FEB 25, 05 cert date --- for $7000 ($4k of supposed rap), see the numbers I posted earlier in this thread. My big decision now is

GIA D SI 2 1.26c -- $6800 totally eye-clean HCA 1.3 (see above in thread for scanned GIA cert)

with the following Sarin data:

crown angle: 34.5 (34.0 - 34.9) (the two 34.0''s are across from a 34.7''s  and the 34.9 is across from a 34.2, others are 34.7 or 34.4)
crown height: 14.8
pav. angle:  40.8 (I have no min/max data)
pav. depth:  42.9
table size: 57
total depth: 60.9 (the Gia Cert reads 60.9, the store''s Sarin = 61.2)
culet: 1.3
girdle: 1.15-2.44
star/upper%: 50/50

or

EGL (Israel) G SI 1 1.51 -- $7000 ( I only have a faxed copy of the cert. which is dated FEB. ''05)

Megascope data:

EGL 1.51 G SI1 "Excellent Ideal" EX/EX polish/symmetry

Diameter: 7.32 (7.30-7.35)
table              55.8   (55.3-56.1)
pavilion angle   40.9   (40.7-41.0) (three pavs are 41.0, the rest range from 40.7-40.9)
crown angle    34.5   (34.4 - 34.7)
t.depth          62.3
Pav depth       43
crown depth   15
girdle             sl. thk  2.6  (2.3-2.9)
AGS proportion 0

It''s obiously reaching the 1.50c mark by keeping a sl. thk girdle. I''m a little worried about the 41 degree facets. But, it''s obviously much larger than the GIA. So that''s really what I''m comparing now.

These stone are basically the same price, but the theoretical discount on the EGL is +4000 of rap, while the GIA is obviously a much lesser discount. Does size really matter here? The numbers don''t look so scarry. I''m actually out of here in a few minutes, Ideal-scope in hand to check the EGL out in person. Let me know what you all think. I''ll be back with a report, soon I hope.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/2/2005 10:30:56 AM
Author: stonedtodeath
Thanks for the tip on color grading, Rockdoc. I''m not surprised to hear that we did a very half-baked color grading comparison...

My big decision now is

GIA D SI 2 1.26c -- $6800
totally eye-clean HCA 1.3 (see above in thread for scanned GIA cert)

or

EGL (Israel) G SI 1 1.51 -- $7000
( I only have a faxed copy of the cert. which is dated FEB. ''05)

The colorless grades are so tight that it is more like "not even in the owen" rather than "half baked"

The difference between one color grade and the next gets more significant (menaing, less out of controll) down the scale.

D-SI2 surely sounds as a good deal given the "eye clean" quality.

The other stone would qualify as well, if brilliance looks satisfying and clarity is ok as well. I would rather assume two color grades "off" if that''s not the US branch of EGL. SI1 could be SI2, but in either case, the discret-ness of inclusions (as in "eye clean" versus not) makes allot more difference (IMO) than the fine line between grades. And that is something you can see without any help from a lab. The 7k price would not be bad for some 1.5 cts labeled I-Si1 by GIA. So if you do like that stone, it does seem likely to me that the price is right on target or better.

It would be nice to have an appraiser''s nod, but that is up to you, of course.

Just my 0.2, as usual

 

[stonedtodeath]

Valeria 101:

Thanks for your thoughts. I did go to check out the EGL stone today. They offered to bring out an AGS 000 stone, which was also certed as a "G". After a little scrutiny upside down in the white card, it was clear to me that the EGL stone was slightly, ever so slightly, yellower/browner -- closer to an H, maybe somewhere between grades --- Again, I''m a total amature at this stuff, so a pro might have jugded more or less off the AGS stone, but under the very wrong lighting conditions of the Jewelry store, that''s what I saw. I do think it was a pretty legit SI 1, certainly cleaner than the several SI2''s I''ve seen at this point. Even if it''s weak relative to other SI 1''s (which I don''t know since I haven''t really been shopping in that clarity range), it''s most definitely eye-clean.

Placed in the setting I''ve been eyeing, it looks significantly bigger than the original EGL D SI2 1.26 they had offered me (see earlier in this thread for details on that stone). The Ideal-scope looked very good, no white under the table, good strong arrows pattern, nice pink, saturated reds throughout. A nice stone, I think. But the color is definitely noticably darker from a D stone, especially since the setting I like really shows the entire pavilion from all sides.

So, now I must assume I''m looking at what equates to a well-cut GIA H SI 1 1.46, and since I know the girdle is thick, the stone probably should be priced more in line w/1.46c stones, not 1.51c. So now, although the deal is certainly not as sweet as it might have first appeared (what deal ever is), it''s still pretty good. But it certainly has me wondering if the GIA D SI2 1.26 stone is the winner. Size does matter!! I can really see this 1.5 pop off the hand of the wearer.

I went to the GIA store, told them what was going on, and they jumped on the thick girdle issue, as expected, but I countered that the crown/pav angles were good and light return very good. I told them honestly that I thought the color was probabably closer to an H, too, just to keep everyone on the same playing field. THe GIA D stone looked fantastic mounted, but I just can''t get over the impact of that extra size on the EGL. Am I a fool for being a color /cert snob w/the GIA D stone? Don''t girls who haven''t had much exposure to fine diamonds (like my Fiance'') generally go for size over color?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/3/2005 1:43:30 AM
Author: stonedtodeath
Don't girls who haven't had much exposure to fine diamonds (like my Fiance') generally go for size over color?

More exposure to diamonds certainly didn't make me like more colorless more... "H" should not show any color once set (even in an open setting like that) unless one insists on holding a D color next to it. And that rarely happens and even more rarely matters.

Somehow, your description brings "I-J" to mind rather than "H" . But even then, 7k for a stone with great light return and symmetry sounds good.

Does the shop with the 1.5 EGL piece have any return or upgrade policy ? If they do, then your girl will have a chance to make a different choice sometime. Honestly, I would be very surprised if anyone qualifies the respective stone as "yellow". Judging from what you say, of course. This is more a question of taste and personal choices than diamonds