GIA or EGL....in regards to color & clarity...

[cdander2]

I am not asking about specific stones, but just in general....

Would you rather have a 1.8ct F VS1 EGL or a 1.8ct J SI1 GIA stone, if they were the same price?

What would you guys say in general an H SI1 EGL stone would rate on a GIA cert?

 

[Christina...]

This is an absolute no brainer! The GIA hands down. Check out the colorimeter on this EGL H.

http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9414/

edit to remove a comparison that made no sense.

 

[Haven]

What shape are these stones? What are their prices? I'd need to know this info before I decided.

 

[sgc3301]

same price? I'm gonna go with GIA as long as the diamonds are equally cut and perform similarly. I have an EGL-USA diamond (F - SI1) but I purchased it after seeing it next to GIA Fs and Gs and feeling like it performed nicely. Most importantly I didn't pay for it as if it were a true F-Si1 as the jeweler agreed that EGL is looser sometimes.

 

[cdander2]

What shape are these stones? What are their prices? I'd need to know this info before I decided.

For instance:

Round stones, $12K, both ex cut with ex sym & polish...

 

[Haven]

What shape are these stones? What are their prices? I'd need to know this info before I decided.

For instance:

Round stones, $12K, both ex cut with ex sym & polish...

In that case I'll take the GIA graded stone, no question, assuming I've seen them both and loved the GIA.

 

[denverappraiser]

The problem here is that you are comparing two stone that are not graded using the same scales so you simply don’t have the information you need. All things being equal except clarity and color, as you’ve stated, most people would go for the higher clarity and color. The problem is that you basis for saying all things are equal. Presumably you’re using GIA as a benchmark and trying to decide how much EGL differs and if there is evidence of a bargain here. Your ONLY source of data is the very lab that you’re questioning. Allow me to add another datapoint to consider. SOMEONE owns that stone and is trying to sell it. Chances are extremely high that they are a professional diamond dealer and an expert in their own right. They have the stone in hand, have personally inspected it, and they decided to sell it with EGL paperwork. Why? An EGL could be converted to a GIA in a month or so for about $150 with no trace whatsoever that EGL ever looked at it. Diamonds aren’t perishable and interest rates are low. You can bet they know this, they probably submit stones to GIA regularly, and yet they chose to keep this one with EGL papers. I can think of only one reason … They think it will bring more money and/or sell faster as it is. Maybe they’re wrong, but you're playing a betting game here and that’s who you’re playing against. Consider the possibility that the odds are stacked against you.

Which to buy?
Don’t play this game at all. Buy the one from the lab you find the most reliable, the one that you find most attractive in person, or the one being offered by the dealer that offers the most ‘value added’ benefits. The burden is on the lab to convince you that their opinions have merit and the default answer is no. If you’ve decided EGL is reliable than rely on them and buy the stone. If you find them unreliable, ignore their opinion and either have it graded yourself by someone whose opinions you DO find useful or buy something else entirely. Don’t try and invent a conversion chart to turn one lab’s grades into another without anyone involved actually looking at the stone(s). That’s a well-worn path and it's likely you won't care for where it leads.

 

[ericad]

We use EGL because it's the standard in the antique market (believe me, we prefer GIA but it makes it impossible for our customers to compare our stones to our competition's). Our general rule of thumb (from our experience with dual certed stones) has always been roughly 2 color grades difference when looking at K and lower, and the gap narrows to 1 color grade as you go up the scale. Clarity has been equal to or maybe 1/2 grade looser with EGL.

But then sent a recent stone to EGL USA (Los Angeles). GIA had given it an I, VS1. We were expecting it to come back from EGL as H, VS1. EGL gave it an I, VS2! We told EGL to look again, and they came back with I, VS1, but the color didn't change. So they graded it identical to GIA.

Was it a fluke? Is EGL tightening up their standards? We don't know, but it's interesting and we'll be keeping an eye out as we dual cert more stones.

We also heard a rumor that EGL is using a colorimeter. I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but if so it could explain the uptick in grading. We're looking into it.

 

[DiamondBrokersofFlorida]

I have the luxury of being able to grade diamonds, being a gemologist with tools etc. For me, I would look at them both and decide which is a better deal. On the other hand, if you are not an experienced grader with no tools, you would be safer with a GIA or AGS graded diamond. You also could hire an appraiser to help you as well if you are not a gemologist yourself.

 

[cdander2]

Denver & Erica,

Thank you both for providing some insight! I greatly appreciate it.

 

[denverappraiser]

Erica,

That’s a great point. The purpose of the lab docs is to make it easier to compare one stone against another. Consistency of grading is the key to this, and I think the problem with some of the labs. My contention is that comparing an EGL against a GIA is a minefield but what about comparing one EGL against another? Unfortunately, this is tough as well. There are several different labs using the EGL brand that are not the same and even within the same lab there are significant variations. Does GIA-I mean EGL-I, as in your example, does it mean H, as you expected, or might it even mean G? GIA is not 100% consistent either (nor can they be). Each grade covers a range and there’s a boundary at each end with a judgment call. Is it an I or a J? H? When GIA puts it in writing, that’s taken as the word of God but, in practice, dealers can and do protest grades with them. The lab does occasionally change their opinion and dealers do change the pedigree of a particular stone from one lab to another over this exact issue. This entire process is invisible to the end consumer.

The solution as a consumer is easy enough. Don’t play the game.

First choose your dealer. Get this right and it’s amazing how easy the rest of it goes. They should be your ally, not your opponent.
Second choose your lab, using the good council from your chosen dealer and other sources.
Third choose your appraiser. Trust but verify.

 

[makemepretty]

If they were both the same price, I would look at them with my eyes. I'm guessing the F, even though EGL would still be whiter than the J. I don't believe grading labs are that far off from each other, honestly. At least that's been my experience. I wouldn't pay more just because GIA graded it, ever. In fact, in my time parting with jewelry the one I lost the most on was in fact GIA graded, that doesn't mean it sells for higher. It just means YOU might have paid more for it ;0)

 

[Christina...]

If they were both the same price, I would look at them with my eyes. I'm guessing the F, even though EGL would still be whiter than the J. I don't believe grading labs are that far off from each other, honestly. At least that's been my experience. I wouldn't pay more just because GIA graded it, ever. In fact, in my time parting with jewelry the one I lost the most on was in fact GIA graded, that doesn't mean it sells for higher. It just means YOU might have paid more for it ;0)

This one is 8 grades off!


http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9414/

I think it's impossible to draw a comparison without seeing the two side by side.

 

[Haven]

I said I would choose the GIA graded stone because I believe the common advice that is given around here on PS that if a jeweler chooses to send an RB to EGL instead of GIA, there's a reason for it.

 

[ericad]

If they were both the same price, I would look at them with my eyes. I'm guessing the F, even though EGL would still be whiter than the J. I don't believe grading labs are that far off from each other, honestly. At least that's been my experience. I wouldn't pay more just because GIA graded it, ever. In fact, in my time parting with jewelry the one I lost the most on was in fact GIA graded, that doesn't mean it sells for higher. It just means YOU might have paid more for it ;0)

This one is 8 grades off!


http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9414/

I think it's impossible to draw a comparison without seeing the two side by side.

This was EGL International. I think we're only talking about EGL USA in this thread, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I said I would choose the GIA graded stone because I believe the common advice that is given around here on PS that if a jeweler chooses to send an RB to EGL instead of GIA, there's a reason for it.

This is so true.
There's simply no reason to send any stone- new or old- to anything other than GIA ( excluding AGSL).
I know this isn't the case with Erica- but in general, the person submitting to the no GIA lab wants a better grade.
In terms of which is easier for a consumer to sell, there's really no debate.
GIA.

As far as which diamonds consumers may loose the most for if they need to sell: That's really more dependent on what they paid, how long ago- and the stone itself.
But having a valid GIA report puts a consumer in a FAR stronger position when selling as compared to ANY EGL- USA or foreign

At the wholesale level- buyers need to be able to grade stones for themselves- but whatever they figure the grade of a non GIA graded stone, they're generally going to have a easier time knocking the price down than on a properly graded GIA stone

 

[Christina...]

If they were both the same price, I would look at them with my eyes. I'm guessing the F, even though EGL would still be whiter than the J. I don't believe grading labs are that far off from each other, honestly. At least that's been my experience. I wouldn't pay more just because GIA graded it, ever. In fact, in my time parting with jewelry the one I lost the most on was in fact GIA graded, that doesn't mean it sells for higher. It just means YOU might have paid more for it ;0)

This one is 8 grades off!


http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9414/

I think it's impossible to draw a comparison without seeing the two side by side.

This was EGL International. I think we're only talking about EGL USA in this thread, if I'm not mistaken.

I agree that EGL USA does tend to me 'more' accurate, and it's possible or maybe even likely that the OP was limiting his question to EGL USA but he didn't state that in his original question. I think that it goes back to Neils point that even within EGL the scales being used to determine grade are not consistent, which further confuses consumers when they can't even compare stones between different EGL labs with any accuracy. Unless it's an antique stone, I'm always going with GIA or AGS.

 

[ericad]

And as far as antique stones, I'd go one step further and suggest that consumers demand GIA reports! If consumers put pressure on the antique dealers, we'd see a shift. We're leaning towards dual certing stones, but haven't quite worked through the logistics yet. Then, one day when the rest of the antique diamond industry moves to GIA, we'll be ahead of the game!

 

[Rockdiamond]

If they were both the same price, I would look at them with my eyes. I'm guessing the F, even though EGL would still be whiter than the J. I don't believe grading labs are that far off from each other, honestly. At least that's been my experience. I wouldn't pay more just because GIA graded it, ever. In fact, in my time parting with jewelry the one I lost the most on was in fact GIA graded, that doesn't mean it sells for higher. It just means YOU might have paid more for it ;0)

This one is 8 grades off!


http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9414/

I think it's impossible to draw a comparison without seeing the two side by side.

This was EGL International. I think we're only talking about EGL USA in this thread, if I'm not mistaken.

I agree that EGL USA does tend to me 'more' accurate, and it's possible or maybe even likely that the OP was limiting his question to EGL USA but he didn't state that in his original question. I think that it goes back to Neils point that even within EGL the scales being used to determine grade are not consistent, which further confuses consumers when they can't even compare stones between different EGL labs with any accuracy. Unless it's an antique stone, I'm always going with GIA or AGS.

I don't really get this part.
From my perspective, accurate grading is important no matter when the stone was cut.
We've actually had to take it on the chin a bit as we've experienced first hand the difficulty of asking GIA to grade lower colors- and fancy colors, in older cuts.
We submitted an OMB that I am still sure is a Vivid Yellow- it came back Intense Yellow..
This has happened with our branded stones- GIA has so little experience grading Fancy Yellow OMB's that the lower color grades are still a work in progress IMO.
I find GIA to be very accurate when it comes to colorless OMB's
Still, I won;t use EGL because I find ZERO value in any non GIA report- no matter the grade. I've seen many EGL-USA grades on antique stones I disagreed with
The colorimeter is not an approved, and accepted method for color grading. Too many errors

 

[Christina...]

If they were both the same price, I would look at them with my eyes. I'm guessing the F, even though EGL would still be whiter than the J. I don't believe grading labs are that far off from each other, honestly. At least that's been my experience. I wouldn't pay more just because GIA graded it, ever. In fact, in my time parting with jewelry the one I lost the most on was in fact GIA graded, that doesn't mean it sells for higher. It just means YOU might have paid more for it ;0)

This one is 8 grades off!


http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9414/

I think it's impossible to draw a comparison without seeing the two side by side.

This was EGL International. I think we're only talking about EGL USA in this thread, if I'm not mistaken.

I agree that EGL USA does tend to me 'more' accurate, and it's possible or maybe even likely that the OP was limiting his question to EGL USA but he didn't state that in his original question. I think that it goes back to Neils point that even within EGL the scales being used to determine grade are not consistent, which further confuses consumers when they can't even compare stones between different EGL labs with any accuracy. Unless it's an antique stone, I'm always going with GIA or AGS.

I don't really get this part.
From my perspective, accurate grading is important no matter when the stone was cut.
We've actually had to take it on the chin a bit as we've experienced first hand the difficulty of asking GIA to grade lower colors- and fancy colors, in older cuts.
We submitted an OMB that I am still sure is a Vivid Yellow- it came back Intense Yellow..
This has happened with our branded stones- GIA has so little experience grading Fancy Yellow OMB's that the lower color grades are still a work in progress IMO.
I find GIA to be very accurate when it comes to colorless OMB's
Still, I won;t use EGL because I find ZERO value in any non GIA report- no matter the grade. I've seen many EGL-USA grades on antique stones I disagreed with
The colorimeter is not an approved, and accepted method for color grading. Too many errors

The reason that I would purchase an antique cut with an EGL report is because of the same reason that erica suggested earlier, that it's the standard and it's difficult to find an antique cut that isn't graded by EGL. It seems that dealer prefer to send these stone to EGL because GIA is very critical of the cut and often will not label a stone as an OEC but rather a modern brillant (as I understand it, clearly erica would know better why than I would). So my reasoning isn't because I feel that EGL is more accurate at grading old cuts than GIA, because I would rather have the accurate grading of a GIA report regardless of when it was cut, but rather that it's much more difficult to find these older cuts with a GIA report. I agree with Erica that consumers should insist on old cuts being certed by GIA. As far as the colorimeter, I'd guess that it's still more accurate than an EGL report.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I guess we all agree on that point then.
Personally, I feel that the name of cut model ( GIA does sometimes call stones "RBC" that look antique OEC's) is less important than the other value GIA adds.
OEC's trade pretty much like rounds in terms of price anyway.

There's so few dedicated dealers for antique stones- which may allow more "wiggle room" for the dealers using EGL.
But yes, let's all demand GIA reports- no matter how old the stone is.

As far as the colorimeter- t's been around for a long time.
A lot of dealers got angry when they were not getting the same results from GIA as the colorimeter.
As of now, the agreed standard is human observation and grading.

 

[WinkHPD]

The problem here is that you are comparing two stone that are not graded using the same scales so you simply don’t have the information you need. All things being equal except clarity and color, as you’ve stated, most people would go for the higher clarity and color. The problem is that you basis for saying all things are equal. Presumably you’re using GIA as a benchmark and trying to decide how much EGL differs and if there is evidence of a bargain here. Your ONLY source of data is the very lab that you’re questioning. Allow me to add another datapoint to consider. SOMEONE owns that stone and is trying to sell it. Chances are extremely high that they are a professional diamond dealer and an expert in their own right. They have the stone in hand, have personally inspected it, and they decided to sell it with EGL paperwork. Why? An EGL could be converted to a GIA in a month or so for about $150 with no trace whatsoever that EGL ever looked at it. Diamonds aren’t perishable and interest rates are low. You can bet they know this, they probably submit stones to GIA regularly, and yet they chose to keep this one with EGL papers. I can think of only one reason … They think it will bring more money and/or sell faster as it is. Maybe they’re wrong, but you're playing a betting game here and that’s who you’re playing against. Consider the possibility that the odds are stacked against you.

Which to buy?
Don’t play this game at all. Buy the one from the lab you find the most reliable, the one that you find most attractive in person, or the one being offered by the dealer that offers the most ‘value added’ benefits. The burden is on the lab to convince you that their opinions have merit and the default answer is no. If you’ve decided EGL is reliable than rely on them and buy the stone. If you find them unreliable, ignore their opinion and either have it graded yourself by someone whose opinions you DO find useful or buy something else entirely. Don’t try and invent a conversion chart to turn one lab’s grades into another without anyone involved actually looking at the stone(s). That’s a well-worn path and it's likely you won't care for where it leads.

This is the meat of Denver Appraisers post and one of the least considered issues when most people buy a diamond in my opinion. What value added benefits you ask? Hmmm, what is the buy back guarantee? What is the trade up guarantee? Is there one? What are the rules of the trade up? Is it a trade up with the only requirement that it be a trade up, or do you have to double the original investment for it to count? Not to mention what is the reputation of the vendor, does his word have value and will he be here tomorrow?

What is the value of a buy back if you never intend to sell back? What is it really, are you obligated to sell the diamond back? Of course not, but it does set the floor of what you will receive when and if you ever decide to sell. Why is it an added value?

Well, what if you buy the stone from one of the majority of vendors who do not offer any buy back. If your world hits a wall, your marriage breaks up, your wife or one of your children get sick and needs a costly operation or any of a thousand reasons you might need to sell your diamond, good luck getting more than 15 - 25% of what you paid for your diamond if that. If you have a buy back of even 50% you now have an idea of what your vendor thought that stone was really worth to him, and you have now the lowest bid that you will even consider for selling your diamond as now you already have that offer and will never take that 15 - 25% bid from your local over the counter buyer.

Well, what if diamonds go up in value and I can get more? Congratulations, you still have a floor and can look for better bids, perhaps even from the vendor who offered you the buy back. There are several vendors here who offer more than a 50% buyback, and several who offer none. Does the buy back have value to you? Only you can say. If you never intend to buy or sell another diamond in your life then neither the buy back or the trade up will have any value to you, but I can safely say that none of the diamonds I have bought back were bought by people who had ANY intention of ever selling their diamond back to me.

Also there is a thread here that talks about the "grade creep" going on with EGL versus GIA which you may want to read before you jump into owning an EGL diamond with any preconceived notions about how it equates to a GIA paper. I do know this, that every buyer I know will offer you significantly less for an EGL papered diamond than they will for a GIA papered diamond. Even if EGL happens to be right on this , it is the wrong choice for you if you EVER intend to resell.

Wink

P.S. When I say significantly I mean that some of the vendors I know offer LESS for an EGL diamond than they will for a diamond they have graded themselves with no paper, that is the depth of their contempt for EGL.

 

[Laila619]

If they were both the same price, I would look at them with my eyes. I'm guessing the F, even though EGL would still be whiter than the J. I don't believe grading labs are that far off from each other, honestly. At least that's been my experience. I wouldn't pay more just because GIA graded it, ever. In fact, in my time parting with jewelry the one I lost the most on was in fact GIA graded, that doesn't mean it sells for higher. It just means YOU might have paid more for it ;0)

Ditto.

I have an IGI graded H, and when I had it independently appraised, the appraiser said it was a high H possibly bordering on G (he did not see the cert first). I don't believe that IGI and EGL are always horribly off or overly inflated. Sometimes they do get it right, or at least close to right. Vespergirl is a good example of a PS poster who has an absolutely lovely EGL stone.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Laila,
We can find examples where EGl is more strict than GIA.
The problem is inconsistency- although for sure 95% of the time they are more lax than GIA.
But NONE of this means that a diamond graded by EGL is not a great looking stone.

 

[WinkHPD]

Laila,
We can find examples where EGl is more strict than GIA.
The problem is inconsistency- although for sure 95% of the time they are more lax than GIA.
But NONE of this means that a diamond graded by EGL is not a great looking stone.

True, but the FACT that EGL USA sells for a 27% (mode average) less than a GIA graded diamond means that US retailers believe them to be seriously overgraded on average. With EGL Israel selling at a 40% discount, that says even more about their reputation.

Sadly, as long as retailers demand these loose certs so that they can "compete" with GIA to the detriment of their clients, there will be no incentive to fix what many perceive as unbroken.

Wink

 

[Haven]

The value of a GIA cert is that the owner knows what she's really wearing. I saw my current stone before it had been graded. (It had been in someone's family for over 100 years.) I loved it. I knew I wanted to wear it. And even though I made the commitment to own it in my head, I wanted to know what color and clarity it was, regardless. And given the loose standards of EGL, I only wanted GIA to grade it. Had we had EGL grade the stone I'd never really know what I was wearing.

I agree that it would be nice if consumers demanded GIA-graded antique stones, but how will consumers know to do this if none of the antique stone sellers send the message that a GIA-graded stone is important? The argument that it must come from the consumers doesn't really float with me. The sellers/vendors are the experts that consumers trust when buying stones. If the experts are satisfied with EGL certs, then that sends a very strong message to the consumers.

GIA graded my stone as an OMB, not a cushion brilliant, so that seems to send the message that this stone is, in the very least, an antique-style cut.

 

[Rockdiamond]

The value of a GIA cert is that the owner knows what she's really wearing. I saw my current stone before it had been graded. (It had been in someone's family for over 100 years.) I loved it. I knew I wanted to wear it. And even though I made the commitment to own it in my head, I wanted to know what color and clarity it was, regardless. And given the loose standards of EGL, I only wanted GIA to grade it. Had we had EGL grade the stone I'd never really know what I was wearing.

I agree that it would be nice if consumers demanded GIA-graded antique stones, but how will consumers know to do this if none of the antique stone sellers send the message that a GIA-graded stone is important? The argument that it must come from the consumers doesn't really float with me. The sellers/vendors are the experts that consumers trust when buying stones. If the experts are satisfied with EGL certs, then that sends a very strong message to the consumers.

I wear an antique cushion that came into my jeweler's hands without any grading whatsoever. I sent it to GIA because I wanted to know its most accurate stats. GIA graded it as an OMB, not a cushion brilliant, and more importantly, I know what color and clarity it actually is.

There certainly are some sellers of antique stones that stress GIA

 

[Haven]

David--I know it! And I think you're doing the right thing for the antique stone industry.

It kind of reminds me of a battle we face in my own field, education. There are huge issues with grade inflation, yet while everyone agrees that grade inflation (aka loose grading) is a bad thing, very few are willing to take a stand against it.

 

[denverappraiser]

Give the customers what they want is a mantra used by dealers worldwide for all manner of things, not just diamonds. So what do customers want? What a lot of them SAY they want is a stone that someone has given a particular grade and they want it for the lowest price possible. They want to believe that they are the smartest shopper out there because they found a dealer who calls themselves a wholesaler, because they know how to use ebay or Google, or they’ve found the secret Rap price sheet. So who’s surprised that there are dealers who deliver this? Who’s surprised that there are labs that cater to dealers who deliver to this? Who is surprised that there are cutters who cater to dealers who deliver to this? There are plenty of dealers out there who don’t play this game and there are plenty of customers who shop with them. More power to ‘em. They too are giving their customers what they want, they just cater to customers with a different set of requirements. It’s a big world and there’s room for multiple approaches. When the former discovers that they didn’t get exactly what they thought they did because of assumptions they made without even knowing they were making them, I agree it's a problem, but I wouldn’t call them entirely innocent victims.

 

[Haven]

Mr. Beaty--I totally agree with you. I think many consumers want to believe they got a great deal, and they care more about that than they do about the actual quality of the item. Not just with diamonds, with many things.