GIA Ideal vs. H & A

[kooch1221]

Im a newbie looking for a enagagement ring and have been researching quite a bit over the last couple of days. I found some really good information on this board, mainly that the qulaity of the cut seems to be the key element in a diamonds appearance. What I want to know is, is someone like me (lay person) going to be able to tell the difference between an H & A diamond (ags 0) vs a GIA ideal diamond? Alot of the GIA ideals seem to be signifigantly cheaper that there AGS counterparts and would rather save the extra money for a larger or better color stone if I couldnt readilt tell a difference. Thanks in advance!

 

[oldminer]

GIA does not offer "ideal" in any grading they perform. Therefore be suspicious of any GIA diamond that is touted as "ideal" and then only provides the limited information from a GIA-GTL grading report. Without the crown and pavilion measurements, one cannot asses if the diamond meets "ideal" standards or only has a couple components within the ideal range. We see many of both types all of which are hyped as "ideal cut" when not all of them are.

Even some AGS 0 diamonds are not great examples of cutting and light return. Some are overly deep and really don't perform so wonderfully. They are not poorly cut, but just not super examples of what is best called "ideal" in the fullest sense. There are no true rules in all of this, so no one is breaking the law. Stretching the truth is not such a big deal unless its your money being spent badly.

Most AGS 0 diamonds will display some sort of H&A effect. You have to be a very skilled judge to know a good H&A effect from a fair one. They are not all the same as sellers might wish you'd believe.

So, there you have it. We're here to help, but it is not just find a stone and buy it. There is a degree of complexity here and some shopping and learning needs to take place.

 

[kooch1221]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I am looking at a stone that is described below. It is not listed as an H & A stone but it would seem to fall into or pretty close to the parameters of H & A stone. Other than the H & A effect would a similar H & A stone differ signifgantly from this one? Thanks again!

Depth: 60.6
Table: 56
Crown Angle: 34.9
Crown %: 15.4
Pavilion Angle: 40.9
Pavilion %: 43.2
Girdle: Thin
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Culet: None
Fluorescence: No
Measurements: 7.14-7.16X4.33

 

[kevinng]

I understand that not all AGS0 diamonds display H&A effect, and H&A diamonds command a premium.

Does it follow that most H&A diamonds out-perform non H&A ones?

From my limited experience at looking at diamonds, I think the Arrows should show properly if the pavilion main facets are aligned to the main crown facets. The pavilion facets as seen trough the table forms the 'shaft' of the arrows... and the sharp tip of the pavilion facets (nearer the girdle) seen through the crown main facets form the arrow heads.

So, I guess we can deduce that if arrows show nicely, the diamond's main facets are properly aligned. If the arrows are the same size, it further shows that the diamond is symmetrical. Am I right to say that?

However, I wonder why people look at the hearts. Nobody can see the hearts once the diamond is mounted. Does it act as a secondary check of some kind? Which facets are we checking for when we look at hearts?

If people look at H&A and Idealscope/Lightscope images in conjunction, it follows that the H&A pattern does not guarantee light return. It would be great if someone can post images and specs of a diamond with excellent H&A patterns but poor lightscope images... That would be really educational, at least to me.

 

[yeewl]

Hello,

Recently, my girlfriend bought a GIA graded stone during the Great S'pore sale. Below are the details.

March 02 2004
GIA 13165623
Round Brilliant
6.35-6.40 x 4.03 mm
1.02 carat
Depth 63.2%
Table 55%
Girdle medium to thick, faceted
Culet none
Polish EX
Symmetry EX
Clarity vs2
Color F
Flurescence none
Comment additional clouds are not shown
Additional inscription H&A

S$ 11300 (US$ 664
based on US$1 = S$1.70 exchange rate
Rap 6900 x 1.7 x 1.02= $11964 less 5% = S$ 11366

My question is, does GIA give this kind of inscription (H&A) freely and for the price, is it reasonable or too expensive? We brought along the Idealscope to view this stone and it's looks beautiful.

Also, she just came back from HK and showed me another GIA report.

January 13 2003
Round Brilliant
6.72-6.83 x 4.08 mm
1.14 carat
Depth 59.9%
Table 62%
Girdle medium to slightly thick, faceted
Culet none
Polish VG
Symmetry VG
Clarity vs1
Color F
Flurescence none
Comment pinpoints are not shown

S$ 13222 (HK$ 59500)

She wanted to know is it worth the price because if it's good, she would ask her boyfriend to get for her as he is stationed in HK.

Any comment would be greatly appreicated.Thank you.

 

[kevinng]

Hi Yeewl,

As far as I know, nobody grades H&A pattern except the Japanese. Also, I don't think the H&A inscription was put on by GIA. Somebody else inscribed it and the GIA lab just noted it in the report because they saw it during the grading.

As for whether the price is worth it? Most people here will probably say:
1) Not enough info (because no images to see)
2) Not worth it (because there's better deal online)

Garry Halloway likes to say this: "I have a string... how long is it?" Haha...

I think your best bet would be to put it in the HCA to see the score, and also to bring your idealscope when viewing the diamonds... just to check the quality.

As for whether it's worth it? I don't think anyone actually knows. I know someone who actually splurged a fortune on a 2.2ct at Aspial recently, and she thinks it's worth it because she probably had a sleek salesman treating her like royalty, and served her wonderful fruit tea. There's also very little hassle because they will do the setting and all. At the price she's paying, they can probably do delivery to her doorstep. Anyway... everyone has a different view where money is concerned.

 

[quaeritur]

yeewl-

GIA did not give the H&A inscription... someone had that inscribed on the diamond and the GIA certificate is merely noting that fact. GIA does not grade H&A cuts.

However, there are several branded H&A cuts out there, such as "A Cut Above," "Venus by Infinity," "Hearts on Fire," and "SuperbCert." Those branded stones may have additional inscriptions that would also be noted on the GIA cert (or AGS, for that matter). It is not an endorsement by GIA or AGS, merely a description of the stone, just like they would note an inclusion.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[yeewl]

Hello again,

kevinng: I think your best bet would be to put it in the HCA to see the score, and also to bring your idealscope when viewing the diamonds... just to check the quality.

We did bring along the 'Idealscope' together with 'Ideal-light' to do diamond shopping

That's when we saw that 1 carat diamond, we like it very much.

Before that, we went to Lee wah, Goldheart, soo kee, meyson at Wisma. We viewed all the 1 carat stones with AGS triple 0, IGI H&A and the price are so expensive and nothing fantastic.

We just glad that after all the window shopping.. she got what she wanted and paid for which I think is a decent price. We also visited the wholesaler and he couldn't offer us the price she paid for that 1 carat.

 

[kevinng]

Yes Yeewl. I know you and Tomatoe are very diligent with your diamond hunting and your idealscope... and you help your friends hunt for engagement rings too. That's very nice.

If the specs are good, the idealscope image look good, and the diamond is a stunner visually, I believe it's a good deal... because you're not very far off from internet prices... and you don't have to pay GST... Well, technically, you have to pay GST. But I don't think you're going to, right?

 

[yeewl]

Hello again,

Actually, her future-hubby is not a local bloke here and currently station in HK, so when he was in S'pore, he got to claim GST rebates...so are the 2 loose stones which I helped her to choose at TAKA during their recent 45% off GIA loose stones sale

 

[kevinng]

Were the Taka people nice to you when you brought in your idealscope?

 

[yeewl]

Hello again

Of course, as I have been dealing with them for the few years already.I have my favourite outlet whenever I have something in mind to buy, I will look for them. Usually GIA loose stones.

In fact, they were curious and asked where I bought them. The only jewellry shop that wasn't pleased was Mondail.