Gemfix Sapphire Arrived-Inclusion or Window?

[Truthstar]

Hi All,

Ok, so I ordered a Gemfix Sapphire. It's very nice but unfortunately I can see some type of defect(?) at the bottom, next to the point. Of course, its hard to capture pictures but I think the ones show it well enough. Anyone know what this is? Does it devalue the stone or make it less durable(easier to break)? I spoke with Andrew before shipment and he mentioned it was eye clean; think he overlooked this. Its quite expensive at 3.6k and labeled as VVS; the stone really is nice however in direct sunlight I can see through the stone to that spot. Your recommendations are greatly appreciated. This is for an e-ring so...ya know
I know the whole 'if you love it then...' idea but I'm looking at this from a cost to quality aspect and my knowledge on such things clearly isn't equal to this groups'.

 

[T L]

It's really difficult to tell from your photos. Do you have the original vendor photos. The only window I can see is a tilt window, which is normal for all gems, even precision cut ones. You don't want to see a window when the gem's table is perpendicular to your line of sight.

 

[Truthstar]

Picture 1 and Picture 3 above shows what I'm referring too. Its the obvious bright spot.


Here is a pic from Gemfix

 

[T L]

I seriously cannot tell what that is, the picture is way too small. One would need to view it through a loupe, or using a camera with detailed macro mode.

As for the window, there isn't one face up in the vendor photo.

 

[digdeep]

Is this stone a roval and not a round? I see what you are referring to and my concern is that it is a blatant white/clear spot so it does look like light is leaking directly through the stone. I forget if you already asked Gemfix about it? Maybe a faceter can weigh in on this? I would not keep the stone until I had an answer I was comfortable with. No answers....no comfort...no keep.

 

[Truthstar]

Hi Dig,

It's a modified oval 7x6.3. There is some color zoning in the stone. The spot is very noticeable at certain angles but doesn't reflect so much light as in the pictures; had the sun hitting it directly.

I spoke with Andrew the other day and he was pleasant of course. He stated most if not all sapphires have some type of inclusions.

 

[VapidLapid]

I expect that it is a feather type inclusion, negative crystal or some other inclusion that light is reflecting off. Do you only see it from certain angles with certain lightings? Colored gems are judged face up in normal viewing conditions. Can you get better, more detailed pics for us?

 

[Truthstar]

Its hard to capture on camera but you can see it just nest to the point. It almost looks like something in between a bubble/feather-like object. The picture capture the zoning as well I believe. Thoughts overall?

 

[Truthstar]

And yes, its visible at only certain angles/light.

 

[VirginiaZee]

I can see what you're talking about, and it looks like some type of inclusion in the stone. When taking photos, can you balance the stone between your fingers (like in the Gemfix photo) and take a photo of it? That might help us know about how visible the inclusion is.

 

[Truthstar]

Well back to basics since its apparent there is a visible inclusion:
-does it detract from the value of the stone? I feel the cost is somewhat at the upper level or am I mistaken
-any opinions on the zoning
-how would you grade this gem

 

[VapidLapid]

I have doubts about this inclusion being properly categorized as eye visible. It seems to be tiny and eye visible only in very specific angles , both ocular and lighting, visible only with a loupe or enlarged photo, which as color stones are graded, still makes it eye clean. If this inclusion does not break through the surface of the stone I would not give it another thought. The color, the cut and the treatment level would still be the criteria that matter most, IMHO.

 

[VirginiaZee]

JMHO, but since the inclusion/whatever the speck is doesn't seem visible from looking at the stone from the top, from a normal viewing distance, I wouldn't worry about it at all. And it also seems that the color zoning is only visible when viewed through the pavilion, so I don't think you'd even notice it once the stone is mounted. And If I'm looking at the right Gemfix sapphire it says AGL certified heat only, so nothing invasive. Again, just my $0.20, but I think it's a very pretty stone, in a pleasing shape, nicely cut, with a nice color.

 

[digdeep]

Sounds like you have more info to consider regarding the 'spot' as an inclusion. Did Andrew address this specifically? (It's eye clean , but has an inclusion and zoning?) My concern would be.....is this what I was told I was getting? I'm careful about my investments and between zoning and this "inclusion" I would feel that I wasn't given enough information by the seller and it is not a cheap stone so those things would have to be weighed. It's up to you, and you know the 'if it speaks to you' routine. Good luck with your decision!!

 

[JewelFreak]

It looks like a small inclusion, though it's difficult to tell from your photos -- as VL mentioned, looks like a negative crystal. I don't think it's anything to think twice about since it isn't visible looking straight down into the stone. It will probably not be visible at all once the sapphire is set.

If you let it rest between two fingers you'll get a rough idea of how it would look in a setting. Check it out in varying lights & see how it performs. If you like what you see, great. If not, you can return it. It often takes a lot of searching to find the right sapphire. Good luck!

 

[MollyMalone]

digdeep, in my experience, vendors typically do not make note of color zoning in sapphires that's visible only in pavilion view but not seen when face-up. GIA classifies sapphires as a Type II colored gem, meaning they are usually included. Consequently, as GemFix explains on its clarity evaluation page, when GemFix dubs any Type II gem as being VVS, it means one can expect "Minor inclusions, somewhat easy to see with 10X. Usually eye clean."
http://www.gemfix.com/GIA_clarity_system.html

So although the textual description in the listing of this particular sapphire uses the word "clean", think that should be read in context as eye clean, not internally flawless (were a sapphire internally flawless when viewed through a loupe, a vendor would make a big deal about that). And "eye clean" is what's visible from a distance of 10-12" (by many's definition, some would say as little as 6"), not when you're nose-to-nose with a stone.

 

[Truthstar]

Difficult to capture, esp indoors. Here are both indoors and outside. I honestly don't see zoning from top view and the inclusion can just barely be seen. Does the inclusion affect overall saturation of the stone though

Indoors: more violet, seems a portion of the stone darkens depending on orientation to light source. Like half would sparkle and other half be dark...is this due to the stone itself(cut type, etc).




Outdoors: def looks a more bluish. At a certain angle I could see my skin; is this normal? 3rd picture down the 12o'clock area.

 

[digdeep]

Both of the pictures show something common in oval/roval gems where the cutting doesn't reflect the light back out of the stone. (I prefer round stones because of this!) Extinction/shadow/half and half are all terms for it. You will in essence lose half the color when this occurs as it will blink between sides when you move the stone in bright light. Are you okay seeing this when looking at your gem? If you can see your skin through the stone it is a window however I think it's a tilt window in the photo you mentioned and those are normal......look straight down through the stone to see if you see through it.....that would be another cut issue and would not be a tilt window.

In the bottom picture is that the inclusion that is the bright light? This is a gem I would not buy for the price that's being asked........you get to make your own decision. Good luck.....you are doing a good job of checking it out!!

 

[LoversKites]

Difficult to capture, esp indoors. Here are both indoors and outside. I honestly don't see zoning from top view and the inclusion can just barely be seen. Does the inclusion affect overall saturation of the stone though

Indoors: more violet, seems a portion of the stone darkens depending on orientation to light source. Like half would sparkle and other half be dark...is this due to the stone itself(cut type, etc).

I doubt inclusions affect saturation. It's understandable to be worried but really, an inclusion of that size doesn't negatively affect the stone.

As for the half dark portion of the stone, that could be half/half extinction and is an effect of the cut. Like in the attachment.

 

[Truthstar]

Yes the half/half shadowing is what it appears to be and the inclusion reflection from top down is minimal, I doubt it would be noticed or understood as such, albeit its there. I work in the laser/optics industry so my eyes are detailed.

Molly, I do respect your opinions regarding eye clean but its playing on words. Eye clean to me means not being able to see a defect unaided. Qua girl isn't going to stick her face 2inches from an engagement stone.

 

[Truthstar]

Hmm ok. Would half/half extinction be present in cushion cut also?

 

[digdeep]

digdeep, in my experience, vendors typically do not make note of color zoning in sapphires that's visible only in pavilion view but not seen when face-up. GIA classifies sapphires as a Type II colored gem, meaning they are usually included. Consequently, as GemFix explains on its clarity evaluation page, when GemFix dubs any Type II gem as being VVS, it means one can expect "Minor inclusions, somewhat easy to see with 10X. Usually eye clean."
http://www.gemfix.com/GIA_clarity_system.html

So although the textual description in the listing of this particular sapphire uses the word "clean", think that should be read in context as eye clean, not internally flawless (were a sapphire internally flawless when viewed through a loupe, a vendor would make a big deal about that). And "eye clean" is what's visible from a distance of 10-12" (by many's definition, some would say as little as 6"), not when you're nose-to-nose with a stone.

When the inclusion casts a light that is visible without a loupe and beyond 'nose to nose' that's a different ballgame. You may not 'see' the inclusion', but you see the effect of it...... I know many vendors who will disclose zoning (from the pavilion) as an ethical matter of full disclosure. So, it all depends on who you are dealing with........and what your comfort level is.

 

[MollyMalone]

Molly, I do respect your opinions regarding eye clean but its playing on words. Eye clean to me means not being able to see a defect unaided. ( ((

Well, what one can detect with the unaided eye obviously depends on the distance, so that's why I provided what's generally the accepted "yardstick" in inches (it's not something I made up).

I wasn't intending for my post to be construed as opinion on this stone (I've found some of the pics and comments confusing), but rather a general fyi. I will say that I myself don't consider the non-disclosure of pavilion-only, discernible zoning in sapphires to be unethical since that kind of zoning is often the case in sapphires, and consequently, has little-no bearing on value.

I don't know if you've seen this thread re extinction-shadowing, Truthstar, but if not, think you would find it useful -- especially the comments from Gene at Precision Gem:
https://www.pricescope.com/forum/co...-with-no-half-half-extinction-t184319-60.html

Have you checked out Master Cut Gems' Annagee Sri Lanka Sapphires page to see if there's anything of interest there; his prices are typically quite reasonable & the posted descriptions more "chatty" than many vendors:
http://mastercutgems.com/index.php?page=view&cat=301

You could contact Dana Reynolds (Master Cut) to ask if he knows of any other sapphires that would meet whatever your criteria are (we are in the dark as to what your target budget, color, cut, etc. is); there's a Sri Lankan guy whom Dana likes to work with who might have something that's not on the MC web site.

 

[digdeep]

Hmm ok. Would half/half extinction be present in cushion cut also?

The answer is "could be" because it's more possible in nonsymmetrical stones, native cuts, etc (IMO!!). I know there is a lot of discussion on the thread that Molly posted and it's worth a read. In my own experience I haven't seen ovals without some degree of shadow occurring.....bad luck? I don't know. I'd love to see clear/clean oval gems without shadows/darkness/etc. I am sensitive to that so cannot 'ignore' it when looking at a gem. That's just me........

I agree if you haven't checked out Mastercut Gems and Dana....it could be worth asking if he has a gem like this one as a comparison if you haven't done so already. (Color, size, price, etc) He's very easy to work with and has his own gems as well as access to other cutters and suppliers...... Good luck!!

 

[MollyMalone]

Additional food for thought...in Richard Wise's view, half=and-half as he'd seen it described on PriceScope ((tho' he didn't name the "major gem forum"), is a "good example of a non-issue" , meaning it should not be considered a true defect in asymmetrical cuts (although it really bugs some people's aesthetic sense-- and it sounds like you may be one of them, Truthstar). Because
Non-symmetrical cuts, rectangle, oval, pear viewed under a single beam light source will always show brilliance across half the face of the gem when the stone is tilted away from the perpendicular. Why, because the gemstone is not symmetrical and therefore treats light in a non-symmetrical fashion. In the cuts just mentioned, some facets particularly the pavilion facets which are responsible for delivering brilliance, cannot be uniform. Some are larger, some are longer therefore light hitting these facets will refract in an irregular fashion. Symmetrical cuts, rounds and square cushions, by contrast have uniform facet patterns and do not suffer this phenomenon.

You can read the rest of his piece, which also includes his MO for assessment in this particular regard, here:
http://www.thefrenchblue.com/rww_blog/2012/12/04/gem-cut-grading-distinctions-without-a-difference/

 

[FrekeChild]

If you like the stone, keep it, if you don't like the stone, return it.

And honestly, it sounds like this inclusion is bothering you.

Everyone else seems to have covered zoning, half and half, etc. One thing that hasn't really been talked about is a tilt window - which is what you're seeing in the last picture, looking at your skin through the stone. All stones (even diamonds) are going to show a tilt window when you look at the stone at a degree that isn't straight down into the stone. Higher RI stones will do this less, lower RI stones (for example, the quartz family) will do this much more often.

I'm attaching a helpful image - showing you what a window looks like - which would be a problem. If you can see through a stone, straight down into the pavilion, that's a window, which means that the stone is 1. too shallow 2. too deep or 3. cut at the wrong pavilion angles. This stone does not have that problem.

 

[chrono]

My own 2 cents:

Colour zoning:
Colour zoning is graded face up only and the valuation is also based on the face up colour, not from the pavilion view. I've not heard it considered unethical to not disclose colour zoning that cannot be detected from the top view. Zoning is evaluated in the face up position, in an 180° arc from girdle to girdle, with the gem rotated through 360°. If you are particular about evenness of colour in the pavilion as well, you need to ask the vendor specifically about this but be prepared for an extended search.

Clarity
Magnification can be used to locate inclusions, but with the exception of inclusions which might affect durability, only those visible to the naked eye are what sets the clarity grade. Eye clean, as a general standard, is only from the top view and judged about 10 to 12 inches away. If you are eagle eyed, do not want to see anything from 6 inches away, and/or do not want to see anything from every angle, you must let the vendor know this because this is not the norm. Again, be prepared for an extended search if you set your requirements higher.

Window
I do not see a window in the stone. What you have shown in the pictures is a tilt window, which is normal and to be expected. The size of the tilt window looks to be in an acceptable range for the angles shown.

If there are issues that bother you, it is best to return the stone and keep looking. The zoning from the back view and inclusion do not bother me but the shadowing does.

 

[Truthstar]

Thanks for the info Chrono; much appreciated.

I'm being particular bc its for an engagement ring. All e-rings will be appraised and it would be highly disappointing to have the value of it come in at a lower value than what I paid and even worse feeling if my GF thought I went cheap(not that she even would, but of course in our world quality goes hand in hand with cost.

 

[Truthstar]

OK guys, I decided to keep the stone. Thanks everyone for their insight; its been a bumpy road. Not really in the mood to wait around another few months in search of a what if.

It turns out I found a cutter in my area and had him take a look. First, let me say this cutter is one of those few people you come across as being completely honest and backs up everything he says. Alas he only deals in untreated; even heat. If anyone is interested I'll fwd his contact info. He buys roughs direct.

Basically everything Andrew said from Gemfix is correct. VVS, well cut, nice stone. I didn't really question that but the quality to cost. Essentially, the cost was equal to the actual wholesale price. So I didn't 'overpay'. Would have felt more comfy w/ a little lower per ct but now I know a lot more concerning sapphires. The facets were slightly elongated to preserve ct weight but he was very impressed w the Portuguese cut as he doesn't see them too often.

 

[MollyMalone]

Congratulations! Glad to hear that you were able to take the stone to someone whom you regard as trustworthy, and who gave you reassurance that the stone was as represented and you would not be "over-paying." Hope you'll post back with pics of the ring when completed