Frustrated with an Appraiser concerning an AVR

[Trasid]

I just went around the mulberry bush with an appraiser who first asked me how much I paid for my AVR. She then told me I paid top retail for it and insinuated that I paid more than she felt it was worth. I let the comment go. ie: I was a good girl and decided not to back talk!

Fast forward a few days and I called and asked her if it would be proper for her to email me a copy of the appraisal before she sent it in the mail so that I could review it. This conversation led again to her feeling that I paid too much for the stone. She also mentioned that my diamond was not anything special, she had plenty in her store like it,and that it was not symmetrical. I told her that it received an ideal rating from AGS for symmetry and polish. She said she could look right at the table with her loupe and see that the table was off. She then explained to me that AGS was no where near as accurate as GIA and an "ideal" AGS rating would only receive a "good"rating from GIA. I asked her if she had reviewed the ASET that I sent her and she told me that it didn't mean anything that it "was only a drawing."

I tried to explain to her that my diamond was a branded cut AVR (that I paid a premium for) just like someone would pay a premium for a H&As brand. She said that my stone was NOT lijke a H&As which was the most perfectly cut diamond in the world and that the brand AVR was a marketing tool and meant nothing. She said that my diamond diameter was off by 0.05 mm and that H&As were only off by .02 and therefore my stone was not symmetrical. She said she had 14 years experience.

She said that these people who sell these diamonds just recut old diamonds and there is nothing special about it. She mentioned that my diamond was an old OEC that had been recut to be a little nicer. She did say that my diamond was beautiful and insinuated that I shouldn't be insulted at all by what she had just said to me.

I ended the conversation by saying, please just send me the appraisal, which she did and fortunately it was more than I paid so for insurance purposes it will be perfect. I did have to ask her to add the branded name August Vintage Round which she willing did.

Thanks for reading my vent because I was soooo peeved. I feel a bit better now ... maybe.

 

[luvmysparklies]

She couldn't have appraised without all the negative commentary? Sounds like she needs to come into the present, and read up to become current in this field.

 

[chrono]

First mistake: she is not an independent appraiser, hence she is pushing stones from her store instead of being impartial.

 

[Dee*Jay]

I'm so sorry you had that experience.

And I just can't imagine how people like that imagine the scenario will play out. "Oh THANK YOU Ms. (not independent) Appraiser for pointing out all of my (incorrect-in-the-representation) "flaws" in making this very important and special purchase. I think I'll just return this DAWG -- woof! woof! -- and buy something from YOU instead."

What on EARTH did she have to gain by this behavior?

Seriously.

Congrats to you Trasid on a LOVELY stone. May you wear it in god health and enjoy it for many years to come!

 

[arkieb1]

First mistake: she is not an independent appraiser, hence she is pushing stones from her store instead of being impartial.

Ditto. Whenever you get someone with their own store appraising they will always talk up their own stock and trash everyone's else's stock in the hope that you will panic and come back and buy from them instead. If you love the stone, who cares what she said. I am sure its stunning and you now have a piece of paper in case it gets lost or stolen.

 

[Trasid]

Luv: I had a similar thought about maybe she wasn't checking out all the new things floating around in the diamond market.

Chrono: I think you are right but I also thought that maybe she had a serious case of PMS or maybe even something more life threatening. Then I thought maybe I had said something earlier that had ticked her off. I didn't even make a big deal out of this being an AVR because I didn't want to brag and they had beautiful, beautiful things so I thought maybe they would appreciate my beautiful thing like I appreciated theirs.

Dee: You just soooo made me laugh. Thanks so much for that. I sincerely needed that to lift my spirits.

Ark: I've read that here on these posts but I guess experiencing is believing!

Here's the crazy thing. I went on their website. Found a stone that I'm sure she would say was "just like mine" and "just like everyone else's". Same color, same carat, same clarity grade but graded by EGL... and in a repo setting very similar to mine all for $1,000 MORE than what she appraised mine for. Uhhhgggggg :confused

 

[SB621]

First mistake: she is not an independent appraiser, hence she is pushing stones from her store instead of being impartial.

+1 I think the most important thing I have learned on PS is that for appraisers they must be independent of the purchase and have no incentive other then writing the appraisal.

 

[SB621]

First mistake: she is not an independent appraiser, hence she is pushing stones from her store instead of being impartial.

+1 I think the most important thing I have learned on PS is that for appraisers they must be independent of the purchase and have no incentive other then writing the appraisal.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Oh my gosh, what a knowledgeable jeweler to think AGS Ideal equals GIA GOOD????!!!! Pitiful. Sad to imagine other misinformation spread by her. Ignorance is bliss. I don't need to tell you that you have a very rare and superbly cut stone!

Thankfully, you managed to get what you needed for insurance! Just be sure to attach a copy of the AGS report to the appraisal.

 

[VRBeauty]

I also thought that maybe she had a serious case of PMS or maybe even something more life threatening.

I'm sorry your experience was so bad and glad that you got the appraisal you needed in spite of it.

And thank you for taking time to share your experience with us. You're probably sparing a lot of people, including me, from having to learn this the hard way!

 

[John P]

...She also mentioned that my diamond was not anything special, she had plenty in her store like it...

With respect, you didn't get an appraisal. You got a sales-pitch.

 

[arkieb1]

Luv: I had a similar thought about maybe she wasn't checking out all the new things floating around in the diamond market.

Chrono: I think you are right but I also thought that maybe she had a serious case of PMS or maybe even something more life threatening. Then I thought maybe I had said something earlier that had ticked her off. I didn't even make a big deal out of this being an AVR because I didn't want to brag and they had beautiful, beautiful things so I thought maybe they would appreciate my beautiful thing like I appreciated theirs.

Dee: You just soooo made me laugh. Thanks so much for that. I sincerely needed that to lift my spirits.

Ark: I've read that here on these posts but I guess experiencing is believing!

Here's the crazy thing. I went on their website. Found a stone that I'm sure she would say was "just like mine" and "just like everyone else's". Same color, same carat, same clarity grade but graded by EGL... and in a repo setting very similar to mine all for $1,000 MORE than what she appraised mine for. Uhhhgggggg :confused

For the record there is no way in the world than an EGL stone can even compared to yours that is just flat out lying. EGL is always out by a few to several grades!!!!

 

[GreenBling]

I love my AGS stone, and truely believe that it worths every penny I spent on it, but it doesn't change the fact that nobody in HK knows this lab.

Just out of curiosity, how popular (or i should ask, how well-known) is AGS and branded cuts like AVR, AVC outside the PS community?

 

[Trasid]

I had always heard, even life before PS, that one should try and purchase a GIA or AGS certified/rated (not sure the correct word here) diamond.

I suppose maybe my feelings are hurt. NOT because she didn't make a big deal out of my stone. I didn't expect her too and I didn't make a big deal out of it when I was in their store. My feelings were hurt because I LOVED their product. I felt they offered something fantastic to those who are a bit frugal or on a budget like DD and myself. I loved their antiques and I loved their repos. The original people in their store that I worked with were professional and extremely nice.

I have not gotten my ring back from them yet ... but my full intention was, and I hope I still can, to leave this company an honest, positive review on this forum as an option for others. I purchased a setting from them. The appraisal was free with the setting.

Right now I'm a little freaked....what if somehow my "just like all the diamonds they carry" got mixed up with one of the diamonds they carry and I get my ring back and by golly, she's right! It's NOT symmetrical and the table is wonky?? And what if the setter/benchman felt like her and he ignored that my stone has great polish and no chips and it comes back a little abraded and ....<as I shutter>!

Diamond: Don't worry ... EVERY piece of paper I received from Jon, the entire booklet, will be going to my insurance company!!

 

[yennyfire]

...She also mentioned that my diamond was not anything special, she had plenty in her store like it...

With respect, you didn't get an appraisal. You got a sales-pitch.

+1...an independent appraiser shouldn't have any skin in the game, so to speak. They shouldn't be trying to tell you that their merchandise is better than what you got....I'm glad that it worked out so that you could insure it for replacement in the event of a loss/theft.

 

[denverappraiser]

I have several issues with this 'appraiser'.

She offered to sell you a 'better' stone out of her store? Even if true, that's not an appraisal, it's an advertisement, and it's hugely unethical.

AGS-ideal = GIA- good. Huh? GIA doesn't even have a scale for cut grading these sorts of stones at all and in the GIA vs AGS scales for rounds, the only place where the scales overlap, this is definitely not the case.

AVR is a branded stone. Thats true. Whether or not the brand means anything and what it's worth is a different sort of a decision. It's probably the heart of some of what you were asking and she ignored it other than to summarily dismiss the concept of 'branding' as having no value. Curiously, her example of H&A is NOT a brand and the statement that an H&A claim means the 'best in the world' is preposterous.

You paid retail. Yes, you did. In fact you bought a specialty product available at only one place. That's close to the definition of 'retail'. So? She offered to sell you something else cheaper. So? She doesn't sell those. You bought a Ferrari and she'll sell you a Hyundai for less. That's neither a mark against Ferrari or Hyundai, it's just the way it works and that difference is exactly what an 'appraiser' is supposed to understand.

Is your stone a recut? Maybe. Nearly every diamond ever mined is still out there and indeed some of them have been recut into 'new' goods. This is true with any shape you can imagine by the way. A stone cut yesterday into a super-duper ideal H&A may have been mined 100 years ago and spent it's first 100 years as an OMC. So? There is no test for this.

On behalf of the appraiser community, I apologize for this 'appraiser'. You did not receive the service you paid for.

 

[GreenBling]

I understand when you say your feelings are hurt. A jeweler I know quite well dismissed my AGS stone as soon as she realized it's not GIA certified. I was so proud that i thought we could admire and inspect it together. It also hurt the relationship as I now feel uncomfortable showing or discussing my stone. She made me feel as if I made a stupid mistake... well at least that's how I think she now sees me. But what the heck! I don't have to justify how I spend my own money. Neither do you Trasid!

 

[bunnycat]

First mistake: she is not an independent appraiser, hence she is pushing stones from her store instead of being impartial.

this, first of all.

I really hope Denverappraiser can correct me if I am wrong in what I would do/have done in this situation.

I have a branded cut stone. I also have a receipt for what we paid for it. I also have an appraisal. On the appraisal all I asked was for it to be clearly mentioned it was a branded cut and what was inscribed on the stone. I give the insurance people the receipt for how much we paid for the stone, which is probably a bit more than a generic AGS000 stone of similar stats because of the brand. This is how I avoided any discussion of how much my "branded" stone is worth with a appraiser who may or may not understand that. This works for "now" but I am unsure how it will work several years down the line when keeping up with renewing appraisals.

It would seem like a similar situation for you at the moment. The stone you bought is brand new, you have the receipt for what you paid, which would certainly be more than another stone of similar make without the branding, so why can't you use that receipt for now for the stone value with the insurance company? Just have the appraiser keep it to whatever the certificate says regarding branding and maybe the value posted on the receipt? It doesn't seem like it'd be an issue while the stone is new, but would be more of a problem with later appraisals if/when prices for similar items go up and you have to find comps?

 

[oldminer]

If the "appraiser" who did this job for you is a member of NAJA, I would appreciate you filing a complaint either with the NAJA Office. Gail Levine is the executive director and the address can be found on the NAJA Appraisers website. Alternatively, you can file the complaint with me as I am the Ethics Chairman of NAJA. There may be two sides to every story, and I'd love to get to the bottom line if it one of our members pulling such a stunt. While not uncommon for one retailer to "knock" another, we appraisers push to professionalize ourselves sufficiently to act differently. Sometimes an "appraiser" needs a good talking to in hopes of improving their customer relations and reputation.

 

[Rhino]

I hear you Trasid. It bewilders me how many assume the title of "Appraiser" who simply either don't have a clue or don't take the initiative to do their due diligence in researching the market. Dave, Neil and the other reputable appraisers who participate here are truly a rare breed and why I personally recommend these gentlemen for that every so valuable professional 2nd opinion. Not only the AVR but lazy appraisers also do not comprehend the Brellia, Jubilee, Princess of Hearts, August Vintage Cushion, and like diamonds cut for the highest optical properties. Sadly there are many jewelers and even appraisers who are oblivious to the advances in cut quality/study even though that took place in 2005/2006.

 

[Gypsy]

...She also mentioned that my diamond was not anything special, she had plenty in her store like it...

With respect, you didn't get an appraisal. You got a sales-pitch.

This.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that. ((HUGS)). I'd be upset too.

 

[denverappraiser]

First mistake: she is not an independent appraiser, hence she is pushing stones from her store instead of being impartial.

this, first of all.

I really hope Denverappraiser can correct me if I am wrong in what I would do/have done in this situation.

I have a branded cut stone. I also have a receipt for what we paid for it. I also have an appraisal. On the appraisal all I asked was for it to be clearly mentioned it was a branded cut and what was inscribed on the stone. I give the insurance people the receipt for how much we paid for the stone, which is probably a bit more than a generic AGS000 stone of similar stats because of the brand. This is how I avoided any discussion of how much my "branded" stone is worth with a appraiser who may or may not understand that. This works for "now" but I am unsure how it will work several years down the line when keeping up with renewing appraisals.

It would seem like a similar situation for you at the moment. The stone you bought is brand new, you have the receipt for what you paid, which would certainly be more than another stone of similar make without the branding, so why can't you use that receipt for now for the stone value with the insurance company? Just have the appraiser keep it to whatever the certificate says regarding branding and maybe the value posted on the receipt? It doesn't seem like it'd be an issue while the stone is new, but would be more of a problem with later appraisals if/when prices for similar items go up and you have to find comps?

Valuing branded goods for retail replacement is actually pretty easy, at least for as long as the brand remains available. What does a new Rolex 16610 cost at an authorized dealer? Ask a Rolex dealer. Easy peasy. They all charge the same. It doesn't make a bit of difference if there are otherwise perfectly good watches available for less from other manufacturers elsewhere. The same applies for stones like this and it even applies for updates later. The only time it gets tricky is if the product gets discontinued or the brandholder goes out of business and isn't replaced with someone else. Then you find 'comparable' types of manufacturers and you have to work a little harder to get at it. It's not rocket science, it's not magic, and it's not a psychic power.

 

[oldminer]

I cannot mention names for fear of lawsuits, but there come to mind a few "Brand" names which are devoid of the essential characteristics of what creates value in a Brand name. Those particular sellers are hurting the business and one must work to become aware of the situation. No one on Pricescope selling here is one of the problem firms. These other firms have appraisers somewhat convinced that no matter the lack of added value, they are entitled to Brand recognition when all they offer really is a greatly inflated asking price and empty added content or quality.

One major source of this is a firm which sells outside the USA and has one of the most difficult return policies ever created. Travelling outside the US, be extra aware.

 

[Trasid]

Seems I accidentally opened a can of worms!

The first time we spoke she told me she asked what I paid for the stone and then said that I had paid high retail. My exact words to her were, “Yes, I know. I am comfortable with that.”

The second time we spoke was when things went a little weird. I was polite because keep in mind ... they still have my diamond and are working on the setting.

Denver: She never offered to sell me a diamond from her store. She just said that I paid top retail and she had many in her store just as nice and that my stone was just an OEC like any other OEC. She also said that stores use AGS because they are less strict that GIA does not recognize these type of stones. Her meaning was clearly that because they are not recognized by GIA they are therefore not worthy. And please don’t feel you have to apologize for her. I respect her right to an opinion and she did have some beautiful stones in her store. I just believe her opinion, in this matter, was better left unsaid. But again…when she started on the tangent I sort of kept leading her on just to see where she would take it. That was not fair of me. When I requested that she add “August Vintage” to the appraisal as it was inscribed on the girdle she complied without argument.

Green: Well that’s a pity. You do know how I feel. I think it is only good manners to be excited for someone when they are excited. It’s in bad taste to burst someone’s Bazooka bubble.

Bastet: She appraised for more than what I paid. I am satisfied. That is why I was wondering why the appraiser seemed so concerned. You are correct… If the price of diamonds keeps climbing at a rapid pace and my insurance does not recognize these higher prices, my appraisal will soon be outdated.

OldMiner: She is not one of us. As a matter of fact the vendor who she works for is very rarely mentioned in PS and I felt it was a shame because I believed in their product. They have nice repo settings and authentic antiques at very reasonable prices. I will be posting pics of my ring very soon after I receive it and I hope it’s everything that I’m expecting.

Dang Rhino… I thought you were on vacation. I could have saved a lot of typing if I had just picked up the phone and called you to vent instead! Thanks for joining in though, it’s always a pleasure!

Gypsy: Awww thanks so much!

 

[chrono]

I am now confused. If she claimed that you paid a high retail price, why is the appraisal value higher than what you paid? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[denverappraiser]

If she didn't try to sell you a stone, my criticism is a lot less harsh but I'm still not impressed. GIA has no cut grade for stones other than modern round brilliants but this most definitely does NOT mean that they don't recognize them. Some of the famous and most beautiful diamonds in the world fall into this category (In fact, most of the 'named' diamonds out there aren't modern round brilliants).

You hired her for a specific evaluation and to write a report for a specific purpose. You said that that purpose was documentation for insurance replacement. Branding is a huge topic in that arena. Girdle inscriptions and statements on the lab report are important topics as well (The AGS report should be included in the appraisal report and it both identifies the cut and the girdle inscription).

Is it the same as a plain-'ol OEC? It doesn't really matter to the task at hand, although it may mater for certain other types of assignments. You chose a genuine AVC, you went out of your way to find one, you knew what it was, you paid extra to get one, and it would not be of 'like kind and quality' for your insurance company to replace it with something else unless YOU agree to it. I would cut her a bit more slack if she just wasn't familiar with the line and didn't notice but you told her all of this up front, including what you paid and where you got it (which are entirely fair questions by the way). The assignment at hand is to estimate what it would be expected to cost to replace it with another genuine AVC at retail new and to provide documentation to allow/require the insurer to do that in the case of a loss. In the end it sounds like she possibly did that, but not without a circuitous path down a rabbit hole about GIA, OEC's, her own inventory, Hearts and Arrows and whatever else. If you brought these things up and she was answering your questions, that's one thing, but if it was part of the appraisal process it was out of line.

 

[pyramid]

She also mentioned that my diamond was not anything special, she had plenty in her store like it,and that it was not symmetrical. I told her that it received an ideal rating from AGS for symmetry and polish. She said she could look right at the table with her loupe and see that the table was off. She then explained to me that AGS was no where near as accurate as GIA and an "ideal" AGS rating would only receive a "good"rating from GIA.
quote]

Was the appraiser meaning meet point symmetry here?

 

[doberman]

First mistake: she is not an independent appraiser, hence she is pushing stones from her store instead of being impartial.

Ditto. Whenever you get someone with their own store appraising they will always talk up their own stock and trash everyone's else's stock in the hope that you will panic and come back and buy from them instead.

Not in my experience. I had the appraisal on my ring done by a gemologist who works for a local jeweler. He is very knowledgeable about diamonds and colored stones. Both he and the store owner said that my diamond was one of the best they had ever seen. And the appraisal came up way high; I had to ask them to scale it down a bit.

I think that you just need to find an appraiser with ethics and one who is familiar with branded cuts.