French parents more relaxed? Book suggestion

[rubybeth]

I am not a mom, and don't even plan on being one for a variety of reasons, but recently a book caught my eye and I decided to check it out and was thinking some of the PS moms may also find it interesting. It's Bringing Up Bébé by Pamela Druckerman:

http://www.amazon.com/Bringing-Up-Bebe-Discovers-Parenting/dp/1594203334

I'm only a couple chapters in, but the gist is that Pamela is an American with a British husband, living in Paris, and she explores why French parents seem more relaxed than her American friends, kids better behaved, and so on. For example, French people ask her if her daughter is 'doing her nights' at 2 months old, and she thinks they are taunting her, until she finds out that a majority of French babies sleep through the night at 2-3 months. She also learns that French kids have mealtimes, just like adults (8am, 12pm, 4pm snack, 8pm dinner), and so French parents do not carry around goldfish crackers and Cheerios. Children are taught to be patient and 'wait.' She discovers how parenting is different in France, how there doesn't seem to be a lot of disagreement about how to raise kids, parents seem less stressed than their American counterparts, and so on.

 

[fleur-de-lis]

I read it and enjoyed this book-- tho' it really made me wish we had a creche-style system here in the United States!

What facets have caught your attention the most so far?

 

[mia1181]

I'll definitely have to check out this book! As a behavior analyst, I see many American parenting styles that are counterproductive to developing independent, confident, empowered, and happy adults. But I also believe that there is no one right way to parent. Our culture and values are different than France's so some of what they do may never work here. I think like any other parenting book it is best to pick and choose what works best for your specific family. I am a big fan of parenting with logic and it sounds like that is the parenting style this book talks about.

As a side note (and I realize this is purely anecdotal based only an example of one person) but as a nanny I used logical principles caring for my charges and the mother I worked for did as well. However, one of our biggest hurdles was dealing with the French MIL. This woman is not just from France but still lives there part of the year and looks down on anything American. Some of the things she did to my charges included:

Feeding the infant "good French bread" without mother's permission.
Continued to give the same little girl snacks between meals, again something mother did not want as the little girl got older
Commenting in front of the same little girl that she was getting fat after giving her all of these unnecessary snacks.
Spending thousands of dollars on a shopping trip when the girl was five including buying expensive American Girl dolls for the girl's friends! Which caused a huge fight when the mother tried to explain that she didn't want her child growing up with the sense of entitlement that may result from these types of lavish gifts.

And that was for the "typical child" this family also had a special needs child and the French MIL treated her differently:
Feeding her meals of only goldfish or Cheerios because that was all she could eat on her own.
Telling parents this child should be put in a home because that's what they do in France.
Constantly trying to take pictures without the little girl's glasses, orthotics or wheelchair, because she "couldn't tell anyone in France" about her special needs.
One positive was that the special needs child would sleep better in general at MILs because she was very strict about bed time. However, those times that the child could not sleep (children with brain damage often have issues sleeping) the child would be left to cry for hours.

Now I don't want to paint this lady in a fully negative light. She is really a sweet lady but everything she does she claims is what they do in France. I am not saying that all the French are like her or that everything she does is because she is French, some of it is because she is a grandmother and wants to spoil the children, and some of it is normal MIL meddling stuff. But, I do think some of the more strict methods that may work beautifully in France, may not work well in our culture if applied exactly as the French do.

Anyway, can't wait to read the book. It will be interesting to compare my one experience with the majority of French norms.

 

[Puppmom]

I think I might pick this up. With a 17 year old, a 2 year old and one on the way, I think I could use some pointers. DH and I tend to very *actively* parent which often leaves us feeling exhausted...obviously! I wouldn't describe us as helicopter parents or anything but we could definitely use some help in the *relaxing* department.

On a side note, DD is taking a parenting class at school. She needed 2 credits for her senior year and she wanted something *easy*. Anyway, the other day she corrected DH for saying things that are actually commands with a question mark on the end. "Time for a bath, okay?" or "Want to brush your teeth now?" or "Would you like some dinner?" So now our 17 year old is giving us parenting advice. And...she's right!

 

[rubybeth]

I read it and enjoyed this book-- tho' it really made me wish we had a creche-style system here in the United States!

What facets have caught your attention the most so far?

I think the interesting things to me (as a non-parent) have been that the author's experience is that most of the things the French parents do actually work on her own daughter, as well.

For the sleeping through the night, parents observe their baby's sleep cycles (babies--and even adults--wake up a bit between 2 hour cycles, I guess, but can't 'connect' the cycles until about 2-3 months of age--adults usually don't remember waking up at all) and will go check on them if they cry, but won't pick them up or feed them, just soothe them a bit with a pat on the back, telling them to go back to sleep, and then go back to bed. This way, the babies learn to 'connect' their sleep cycles, and it seems as though they can sleep from 8pm to 8am, with few problems.

For eating, children aren't fed in the night because it 'teaches' them to wake up for a feeding. The argument goes that adults are hungry at 2am, too, but learn to wait until breakfast time to eat. This way, the children are actually hungry at meal times, and even sit through 4 course meals quietly and patiently!

The créche and govt. pre-schools are far less 'structured' than American child care/pre-schools. Children are meant to experience the world, be 'awakened' and 'alert' and experience sights, smells, tastes, etc. The French parents seem much less focused on 'milestones' and developmental stages, and they see Americans as trying to speed up nature. One parent tells the author, "Why would you want to deprive your daughter of being a child?"

French parents don't see discipline as 'punishment,' rather they see it as their role to 'educate' their child. This doesn't mean ABCs and numbers, this means the boundaries, manners, and acceptable behavior of society.

Lastly, parents in France know that their 'job' is to frustrate their children. They see frustration as something their children need to learn to deal with on their own, because life is full of frustration. They see it as their role to say 'no' and to set up firm limits for their children, explaining the reasoning to their child, but within those limits, children are given much freedom. For instance, one mother tells her daughter she can wear whatever she wants (a princess outfit or a summer dress in winter) in the house, but when they go out, mom decides what daughter will wear. The young child understands this and accepts it.

Mia, the stuff about the French grandmother is kind of horrifying. None of what she did sounds anything like what the author discovers in this book.

Puppmom, you are lucky to have a teenager while you have young children. She will likely serve as an alloparent to her siblings. I did this with my sister (I'm 6 years older), and learned later that my sister wasn't scared of bringing home a bad report card to mom & dad, but was scared what I would say, so she did her homework! After she got her graduate degree, she said to me, "Now I have my master's degree, just like YOU!" even though our father also has one!

 

[Puppmom]

Rubybeth, DD is such a wonderful sister. She enjoys being with DS and loves to be involved in his care. She often asks to bathe him, etc. and plays with him all of the time. She struggles a bit now when he *fits* because she can't stand the noise...guess that's the 15 years of being an only child! She hasn't solidified her college plans yet but I hope she's able to make time for the kiddies. DS adores her!

On the book...even if I'm not able to or choose not to implement some of the views, it's always good to hear the perspective of others on these things. I'm learning that we shouldn't be so rigid in our ways and adapting is key.

 

[monkeyprincess]

I just started listening to this book on audiobook recently and am about halfway finished. I'm finding it very interesting, and I agree with much of what the author has to say about American parenting styles based on what I've seen with my friends' and family members' children. I have no idea what kind of parent I'll be as my baby is not due for a few more weeks, but I definitely see the value in looking at parenting from a different, less obsessive standpoint.

 

[enbcfsobe]

This is interesting -- perhaps more so given that I saw that there was a recent study following kids and parents over 6 years that concluded that sleep training doesn't have ill effects (though it doesn't necessarily have long-term benefits either, but it wasn't clear from the summary I read whether they looked at the short-term benefits to mom & dad).

 

[mia1181]

Interesting, today I heard on a pregnancy podcast that French women have lower breastfeeding rates than Americans. I did a quick google search and it looks like it is true. Apparently, it's very unpopular to breastfeed past a few weeks in France. I wonder if that somehow relates to the stricter parenting style of the French?

 

[enbcfsobe]

mia that doesn't seem surprising -- from what i've read so far i imagine it would be difficult to sustain a supply if you night wean after just a few weeks. seems like there has to be a happy medium.

 

[PetitiePoire]

Interesting, today I heard on a pregnancy podcast that French women have lower breastfeeding rates than Americans. I did a quick google search and it looks like it is true. Apparently, it's very unpopular to breastfeed past a few weeks in France. I wonder if that somehow relates to the stricter parenting style of the French?

From my experience, this is true. All of our friends have children between 0-3 years old and all of them asked me, while I was pregnant, if I planned to breastfeed. Only 1 of the mothers out of them did and she only did for a few weeks. They all told me how great it was that I was going to BF, however, only that 1 mother actually had done it herself. It was very interesting.

Also, the children were all very independent. They were watched, but had a lot of freedom to experience life for themselves. The children seemed to be more mature than the US ones I know their age and had very good manners. There was NO talking back or being sneaky, like my cousins in the US. They are taught to come say hello and "bisous" the adults/people that come visit. They also let the babies cry it out. They put them to bed awake and come back with the monitor and the kids settle themselves and fall asleep. I don't know, I just never felt like they were acting up for attention or yelling, etc. So for me, I'd say their parenting style seems to be working well.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Interesting, today I heard on a pregnancy podcast that French women have lower breastfeeding rates than Americans. I did a quick google search and it looks like it is true. Apparently, it's very unpopular to breastfeed past a few weeks in France. I wonder if that somehow relates to the stricter parenting style of the French?

From my experience, this is true. All of our friends have children between 0-3 years old and all of them asked me, while I was pregnant, if I planned to breastfeed. Only 1 of the mothers out of them did and she only did for a few weeks. They all told me how great it was that I was going to BF, however, only that 1 mother actually had done it herself. It was very interesting.

Also, the children were all very independent. They were watched, but had a lot of freedom to experience life for themselves. The children seemed to be more mature than the US ones I know their age and had very good manners. There was NO talking back or being sneaky, like my cousins in the US. They are taught to come say hello and "bisous" the adults/people that come visit. They also let the babies cry it out. They put them to bed awake and come back with the monitor and the kids settle themselves and fall asleep. I don't know, I just never felt like they were acting up for attention or yelling, etc. So for me, I'd say their parenting style seems to be working well.

PP, Curious what you mean about the bolded. Could you provide some examples?

I haven't read the book, but I am now sufficiently intrigued, so will take it out from the library. I am certain I will not agree with some things (CIO, for one), but am really interested in a different perspective. I should probably see if I could find a book on parenting from other countries as well.

 

[Puppmom]

LV, good point. I'm not quite sure how one would implement that idea. I'm hoping I have the time to read the book and find out!

I'm mostly intrigued by different parenting techniques because:

A. there are issues with DS (food and sleep mainly) that I wonder whether or not they would be different if DH and I had done things differently

and

B. With another on the way, I think DH and I will run ourselves into the ground if we continue to parent the way we do.

 

[PetitiePoire]

Interesting, today I heard on a pregnancy podcast that French women have lower breastfeeding rates than Americans. I did a quick google search and it looks like it is true. Apparently, it's very unpopular to breastfeed past a few weeks in France. I wonder if that somehow relates to the stricter parenting style of the French?

From my experience, this is true. All of our friends have children between 0-3 years old and all of them asked me, while I was pregnant, if I planned to breastfeed. Only 1 of the mothers out of them did and she only did for a few weeks. They all told me how great it was that I was going to BF, however, only that 1 mother actually had done it herself. It was very interesting.

Also, the children were all very independent. They were watched, but had a lot of freedom to experience life for themselves. The children seemed to be more mature than the US ones I know their age and had very good manners. There was NO talking back or being sneaky, like my cousins in the US. They are taught to come say hello and "bisous" the adults/people that come visit. They also let the babies cry it out. They put them to bed awake and come back with the monitor and the kids settle themselves and fall asleep. I don't know, I just never felt like they were acting up for attention or yelling, etc. So for me, I'd say their parenting style seems to be working well.

PP, Curious what you mean about the bolded. Could you provide some examples?

I haven't read the book, but I am now sufficiently intrigued, so will take it out from the library. I am certain I will not agree with some things (CIO, for one), but am really interested in a different perspective. I should probably see if I could find a book on parenting from other countries as well.

In my original post I had some examples of differences I noted, but deleted it because the post was super long. These may be normal for some/most, but it was definitely new to me:

-5yo helped in the kitchen with a knife cutting the vegetables, etc. Helped stir things on the hot stove.
-5yo freely walked ahead on the sidewalks in the center of Paris. The mom assured me he was fine. It made me nervous, but he never ran towards the street and waited patiently at the crosswalk and for the light to turn green.
-19mo walks ahead of the parents on the sidewalk (these are in the US, but they are French)
-~1yo using a metal (butter) knife and fork to eat his dinner. Including using the knife to push the food onto his fork like adults do
-~same 1yo was allowed to climb/play on stairs while the parents sat talking at the dining table


I'm having a hard time coming up with examples of the 2-3 year olds, but they were always around, but just played quietly. I don't know, it just felt like they weren't babied compared to other children I was used to. Then again, the ones I compare them to, of the same age, seem to have free run of the parents. Saying "no" and doing the opposite and are given separate meals than the adults vs trying things, etc.

Well, that was a lot harder to put into words than I thought. Baby is waking up, but I'll try to think of some that fit that category (of freedom) a little better.

 

[rubybeth]

Interesting, today I heard on a pregnancy podcast that French women have lower breastfeeding rates than Americans. I did a quick google search and it looks like it is true. Apparently, it's very unpopular to breastfeed past a few weeks in France. I wonder if that somehow relates to the stricter parenting style of the French?

From my experience, this is true. All of our friends have children between 0-3 years old and all of them asked me, while I was pregnant, if I planned to breastfeed. Only 1 of the mothers out of them did and she only did for a few weeks. They all told me how great it was that I was going to BF, however, only that 1 mother actually had done it herself. It was very interesting.

Also, the children were all very independent. They were watched, but had a lot of freedom to experience life for themselves. The children seemed to be more mature than the US ones I know their age and had very good manners. There was NO talking back or being sneaky, like my cousins in the US. They are taught to come say hello and "bisous" the adults/people that come visit. They also let the babies cry it out. They put them to bed awake and come back with the monitor and the kids settle themselves and fall asleep. I don't know, I just never felt like they were acting up for attention or yelling, etc. So for me, I'd say their parenting style seems to be working well.

PP, Curious what you mean about the bolded. Could you provide some examples?

I haven't read the book, but I am now sufficiently intrigued, so will take it out from the library. I am certain I will not agree with some things (CIO, for one), but am really interested in a different perspective. I should probably see if I could find a book on parenting from other countries as well.

In my original post I had some examples of differences I noted, but deleted it because the post was super long. These may be normal for some/most, but it was definitely new to me:

-5yo helped in the kitchen with a knife cutting the vegetables, etc. Helped stir things on the hot stove.
-5yo freely walked ahead on the sidewalks in the center of Paris. The mom assured me he was fine. It made me nervous, but he never ran towards the street and waited patiently at the crosswalk and for the light to turn green.
-19mo walks ahead of the parents on the sidewalk (these are in the US, but they are French)
-~1yo using a metal (butter) knife and fork to eat his dinner. Including using the knife to push the food onto his fork like adults do
-~same 1yo was allowed to climb/play on stairs while the parents sat talking at the dining table


I'm having a hard time coming up with examples of the 2-3 year olds, but they were always around, but just played quietly. I don't know, it just felt like they weren't babied compared to other children I was used to. Then again, the ones I compare them to, of the same age, seem to have free run of the parents. Saying "no" and doing the opposite and are given separate meals than the adults vs trying things, etc.

Well, that was a lot harder to put into words than I thought. Baby is waking up, but I'll try to think of some that fit that category (of freedom) a little better.

I can probably explain a bit more about this, now that I've finished the book. The French parents call it the cadre (or 'frame'), and they have strict rules for certain things (greeting adults, sitting with the family at mealtime, going to bed on time so parents can have 'adult time') but are very relaxed within that framework. In the book, Druckerman notes how different the French parents act while their children are on the playground. They sit on benches outside of the play area and talk to each other. The children play and if they argue, they have to work it out for themselves. There is also a strong emphasis on not tattling. Druckerman tries using the bedtime rule on her twin sons, and finds that it works. The rule is that they have to stay in their room, and she can hear them playing quietly, and when it gets to be later and they are still awake, she simply goes in and tells them it's 'lights out.' They are so tired, they don't argue and put themselves to bed.

Also, I want to clarify that Druckerman does NOT call the French way of sleep education 'Cry It Out' as we do in America. It is sleep training for parents, almost moreso than for babies. Babies naturally wake up a bit between their 2 hour cycles, and can learn to go back to sleep on their own. The French parents use something Druckerman calls 'The Pause' where they wait a few minutes after they hear baby is awake before going in to check on them. A lot of the time, baby settles herself and goes back to sleep. When Druckerman and her husband try this, and it works, they are amazed, but wonder if their daughter was perhaps waking up FOR THEM because the expectation had been created that they would come in. After 2 nights, she goes back to sleep on her own between cycles, at age 9 mos.

It is just a very different philosophy from most of what I see my parent friends doing. I highly recommend reading the book and withholding as much judgement as you can until you've gotten through it.

 

[PetitiePoire]

Rubybeth- Thank you! That frame idea was exactly what I picture in my head. They know the rules (not sure how they learn them) and they stay within the framework. I also wanted to mention how well the groups play together. I rarely heard bickering or tattling. I just assumed that was probably normal?


I am a bit curious for the cry it out. DH is big on letting her cry when she wakes up in the middle of the night. I, on the other hand, have it in my head that she will starve, or is scared, etc. It takes restraint on my part, but she does fall back to sleep. I could never be one to let her cry for a long time. Obviously I wasn't around the French parents during their LO's first few days, but I have seen the young ones put to bed and they don't seem to cry for more than 5 minutes IF they do cry.

Thanks again Rubybeth

 

[rubybeth]

Rubybeth- Thank you! That frame idea was exactly what I picture in my head. They know the rules (not sure how they learn them) and they stay within the framework. I also wanted to mention how well the groups play together. I rarely heard bickering or tattling. I just assumed that was probably normal?


I am a bit curious for the cry it out. DH is big on letting her cry when she wakes up in the middle of the night. I, on the other hand, have it in my head that she will starve, or is scared, etc. It takes restraint on my part, but she does fall back to sleep. I could never be one to let her cry for a long time. Obviously I wasn't around the French parents during their LO's first few days, but I have seen the young ones put to bed and they don't seem to cry for more than 5 minutes IF they do cry.

Thanks again Rubybeth

One thing that Druckerman is really surprised by is that French parents tell their children what they are doing, and how they should behave, even when they are very young. So, for even a 3 month old, they would say, "Okay, it is time to go to sleep. Goodnight!" and feel that the child understands their meaning. This comes from Francoise Dolto, a parenting expert somewhat renowned in France, I guess. One of her things was respecting the child as a separate human being from his parents. This resonated with me, because this is what my parents did with both me and my sister. My parents aren't a bit French, but they were older when I was born, and my mom is a very relaxed personality (basically the opposite of a neurotic, helicopter parent). If I even began to throw a tantrum in a public place, we were OUTTA THERE, so I learned very quickly that I had to behave, and if I did, I may get lucky with a treat from the checkout aisle or bakery.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

This book is on my "to read" list. My best friend (who is TTC) recently read it and liked it. I promised myself I'd take a break from parenting books for a month or so, but it's next on the list.

From this thread, I find the link between the French method stressing STTN and formula feeding to be interesting. I read Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child a couple of months ago and the author said that moms who formula feed tend to be more restrictive (based on some studies). He states that mothers who fall into this category (formula feeding) tend to be more interested in controlling their infant's behavior and like to monitor how much they are eating. He goes on to say that these parents are more likely to perceive nightwaking in a problem/solution framework and consider the social wants of the child instead of nutritional needs.

My friend and I were talking about this a few weeks ago because she EBFs and is currently sleep training her 7-month old. He's still up every 2 hours and she is having a really hard time not feeding him because she feels like he's starving. I'm a formula feeder and while i would have loved to EBF, I totally have the formula feeding mindset described above. I have a naturally good sleeper, which helps tons, but I definitely considered K's waking in a problem/solution framework.

 

[PetitiePoire]

NEL- that's really interesting. Like your friend, I exclusively BF and feel guilty if she fully wakes and I don't feed her. I just can't do it. I do wait to know, now, to see if she is really awake- eyes open for a while, crying, etc- before touching her. I suppose with formula/bottles you know exactly how much they are getting so can eliminate the worry of them starving.