Former landlord charging us $630 for cleaning?! Help please!

[sunnyd]

I''m so angry! We moved out of our privately owned townhome on 10/31. We were expecting a $1350 deposit to come back to us, which by law, should have been in our hands on 11/14. When DH did a walk through with the rental manager on 11/2, they marked a couple of things, and she said they''d need to hire a cleaning service to deep clean the place. Since we didn''t pay a cleaning fee along with the deposit, we figured our deposit would be about $150-300 less because of the cleaning. That number comes from multiple local apartment complex figures and local cleaning service sites. He signed, rental manager signed, we figured that was it.

Landlord sends us an email on the 14th (when we should have had the deposit back already) saying that the cleaning service was 18 hours * $30/hour = $630!!!

I don''t even know how that would be possible! We obviously didn''t trash the place, we cleaned after we left (not deep, but mopped, cleaned bathrooms, vacuumed cat hair, painted spots, etc etc). Included in her email was another list of move out comments including: countertops need to be wiped

, water stain inside cabinet under sink (from their broken garbage disposal), cat hair (we paid a pet fee! How could cleaning not be part of that?!) and other minor normal things.

I''m going to ask for an itemized receipt from the cleaning company they used (thanks lilyfoot!

), because by law, they can only charge us for anything over normal and tear.

I''m just stuck. Neither of us have had to deal with this before, and we don''t know what our rights are. The cleaners have already been paid, so we''re strictly fighting the landlord at this point. I feel like she should have let us know it would be so high!

I appreciate any ideas you may have. We live in Washington. This is the last thing we want to deal with after returning from our honeymoon last week.

 

[MonkeyPie]

When you say your DH signed, what did he sign? Was it a list of things she found that would need to be repaired/cleaned?

 

[sunnyd]

Yes, sorry, he signed a move out list. Then landlord sent another move out list with the ridiculous items.

 

[neatfreak]

Take them to small claims court. In many states if the LL didn't return your deposit with receipts and an itemized list of the deductions by the drop dead date then they can't take anything from you.

And regardless they need to provide receipts. So if they can't/won't provide them you should have a good case right there.

Do you have pictures of the apartment when you left it? There is no way it would take 18 hours to clean an apartment unless it was trashed-which I highly doubt.

And also in most states the landlord can't send another list after you moved out-that's ridiculous. The sheet your DH signed should be the only things that you can be charged for. And even then usually they can't charge you for normal cleaning.

Do you have a tenant resource center in Washington? I volunteered at one in WI for a few years-so please let me know if I can help interpret laws for you or build a case. Usually the LL needs to be able to prove the extra damage, and if they did a walkthrough with your DH before you moved, and they both signed it, that proves that it wasn't trashed or else it would have been on that sheet.

Stand your ground and tell them that you will be taking them to small claims court. I bet they will back down really fast.

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 11/16/2009 1:26:05 PM
Author: sunnyd
Yes, sorry, he signed a move out list. Then landlord sent another move out list with the ridiculous items.

I may be wrong, but I think they can only charge for the things noted on the list signed by the rental manager and your husband. You''d have to check you local/state laws on that.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 11/16/2009 1:32:15 PM
Author: jet2ks

Date: 11/16/2009 1:26:05 PM

Author: sunnyd

Yes, sorry, he signed a move out list. Then landlord sent another move out list with the ridiculous items.

I may be wrong, but I think they can only charge for the things noted on the list signed by the rental manager and your husband. You''d have to check you local/state laws on that.

You''re right - neatbfreak mentioned it, too. Call the landlord, tell them that you have a copy of what you AGREED to pay for (because hello, some of that stuff is their fault, not yours) and you will not pay this ridiculous cleaning fee that includes more than that. If they fight you, small claims court will be worth it.

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 11/16/2009 1:29:13 PM
Author: neatfreak
Take them to small claims court. In many states if the LL didn't return your deposit with receipts and an itemized list of the deductions by the drop dead date then they can't take anything from you.

And regardless they need to provide receipts. So if they can't/won't provide them you should have a good case right there.

Do you have pictures of the apartment when you left it? There is no way it would take 18 hours to clean an apartment unless it was trashed-which I highly doubt.

Thanks NF. Court sounds scary, so hopefully threatening it will light a fire under their butts...

We didn't take pictures, but on our signed move out document, the rental manager just commented that it was dirty. DH was there with her, so they were looking at the place together.

Here's the actual law, if she contacted us on the 14th, does that make her too late to keep anything? She needed to get our forwarding address.
"The landlord has 14 days after a tenant moves out to return a deposit, or give a written explanation of why it (or any part of it) was not refunded. If a landlord does not comply, the full amount of the deposit must be refunded to the tenant, regardless of any claims by the landlord that the tenant is not entitled to a refund."

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/16/2009 1:36:07 PM
Author: sunnyd

Date: 11/16/2009 1:29:13 PM

Author: neatfreak

Take them to small claims court. In many states if the LL didn't return your deposit with receipts and an itemized list of the deductions by the drop dead date then they can't take anything from you.


And regardless they need to provide receipts. So if they can't/won't provide them you should have a good case right there.


Do you have pictures of the apartment when you left it? There is no way it would take 18 hours to clean an apartment unless it was trashed-which I highly doubt.

Thanks NF. Court sounds scary, so hopefully threatening it will light a fire under their butts...


We didn't take pictures, but on our signed move out document, the rental manager just commented that it was dirty. DH was there with her, so they were looking at the place together.


Here's the actual law, if she contacted us on the 14th, does that make her too late to keep anything?

'The landlord has 14 days after a tenant moves out to return a deposit, or give a written explanation of why it (or any part of it) was not refunded. If a landlord does not comply, the full amount of the deposit must be refunded to the tenant, regardless of any claims by the landlord that the tenant is not entitled to a refund.'

Did she give you the full itemized list AND the costs on the 14th day? Or just told you it was coming? And did you already have the check for the rest then? Or have they not sent it yet?

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 11/16/2009 1:37:43 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/16/2009 1:36:07 PM
Author: sunnyd

Date: 11/16/2009 1:29:13 PM

Author: neatfreak

Take them to small claims court. In many states if the LL didn''t return your deposit with receipts and an itemized list of the deductions by the drop dead date then they can''t take anything from you.


And regardless they need to provide receipts. So if they can''t/won''t provide them you should have a good case right there.


Do you have pictures of the apartment when you left it? There is no way it would take 18 hours to clean an apartment unless it was trashed-which I highly doubt.

Thanks NF. Court sounds scary, so hopefully threatening it will light a fire under their butts...


We didn''t take pictures, but on our signed move out document, the rental manager just commented that it was dirty. DH was there with her, so they were looking at the place together.


Here''s the actual law, if she contacted us on the 14th, does that make her too late to keep anything?

''The landlord has 14 days after a tenant moves out to return a deposit, or give a written explanation of why it (or any part of it) was not refunded. If a landlord does not comply, the full amount of the deposit must be refunded to the tenant, regardless of any claims by the landlord that the tenant is not entitled to a refund.''

Did she give you the full itemized list AND the costs on the 14th day? Or just told you it was coming? And did you already have the check for the rest then? Or have they not sent it yet?

The full list was cleaning: $630, damaged blinds: $45. That''s it. She asked for our forwarding address so she could send a check for the remainder of the deposit. So they haven''t sent it.

 

[mayachel]

I know court sounds scary and like a hassle, but it will to the LL too! Just making the motions of your intent and willingness to see it through may be enough for them to make right with you guys.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/16/2009 1:40:03 PM
Author: sunnyd

Date: 11/16/2009 1:37:43 PM

Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/16/2009 1:36:07 PM

Author: sunnyd

Date: 11/16/2009 1:29:13 PM


Author: neatfreak


Take them to small claims court. In many states if the LL didn''t return your deposit with receipts and an itemized list of the deductions by the drop dead date then they can''t take anything from you.



And regardless they need to provide receipts. So if they can''t/won''t provide them you should have a good case right there.



Do you have pictures of the apartment when you left it? There is no way it would take 18 hours to clean an apartment unless it was trashed-which I highly doubt.

Thanks NF. Court sounds scary, so hopefully threatening it will light a fire under their butts...



We didn''t take pictures, but on our signed move out document, the rental manager just commented that it was dirty. DH was there with her, so they were looking at the place together.



Here''s the actual law, if she contacted us on the 14th, does that make her too late to keep anything?


''The landlord has 14 days after a tenant moves out to return a deposit, or give a written explanation of why it (or any part of it) was not refunded. If a landlord does not comply, the full amount of the deposit must be refunded to the tenant, regardless of any claims by the landlord that the tenant is not entitled to a refund.''

Did she give you the full itemized list AND the costs on the 14th day? Or just told you it was coming? And did you already have the check for the rest then? Or have they not sent it yet?

The full list was cleaning: $630, damaged blinds: $45. That''s it. She asked for our forwarding address so she could send a check for the remainder of the deposit. So they haven''t sent it.

Well it''s a bit open to interpretation but in the state I used to live in (WI) we had the same law and they had to return the portion of the deposit they weren''t deducting within 14 days as well.

I think a judge would rule in your favor here. You have so many things working for you.

Here is the website/number for a tenant resource center in Washington (you''re not in DC right?) State. Call the hotline-they will be able to help you.


http://www.tenantsunion.org/

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 11/16/2009 1:42:15 PM
Author: mayachel
I know court sounds scary and like a hassle, but it will to the LL too! Just making the motions of your intent and willingness to see it through may be enough for them to make right with you guys.

Very true. What do I say to her? I need a good email starter that doesn''t come off as angry as I feel.

 

[sunnyd]

Thanks for the site, NF! It had some good information. Arg, this is just so frustrating.

 

[MagsyMay]

I'm sorry to hear this! $630 for cleaning an apartment does sound excessive. The only thing I wanted to add (as a real estate attorney myself having dealt with similar issues), is that be careful you read the entire statute as well as any other statutes concerning security deposits. Often, private condo owners or someone who rents less than say, 5 units, is exempt from the portions regarding security deposits in some states.

Usually you can call a local law firm or perhaps bar association hotline and get a free consultation on the phone about whether you have a cause of action. Most landlord/tenant ordinances usually award attorneys' fees to the successful litigant, so putting your facts and law in a letter to your landlord, along with a threat of recovering your attorneys' fees if the matter goes to court is enough of a hassle that most landlords would rather avoid!

 

[sunnyd]

Thanks for the heads up Magsy. I didn''t see anything differentiating between private and non leases, so I don''t think that applies in my state.


Here''s what I drafted up to her, what do you think?

Hi landlord,

We have some issues with the cleaning charge. The price of $630 is absolutely absurd. Apartments and townhomes in the area charge $150-300 maximum for cleaning, which is in line with local cleaning company rates that we have seen. Also, I''d like you to please explain the purpose of the pet fee, if not to pay for the additional cleaning that pets require.

State law says that no tenant should be held responsible for normal wear and tear, and your unit was left in original condition minus normal wear and tear, with the exception of the blinds, which we are happy to pay for. The Landlord Tenant Act (RCW 59.18.280) requires you to refund my deposit and/or give me a written list of specific, itemized deductions from my deposit within 14 days after the day I moved out. If you fail to do this you waive any rights to my deposit. At this time we require an itemized receipt from the cleaning company.

The items on the additional move out comments were not included on the signed move out list, therefore you cannot charge us for them.

State law provides that I may collect twice the amount of my deposit plus court costs and attorney fees if we must go to court, which we will do if this is not resolved in a timely manner.

Thank you,
Sunny and Mr.

 

[Steel]

Date: 11/16/2009 2:19:27 PM
Author: sunnyd
Thanks for the heads up Magsy. I didn''t see anything differentiating between private and non leases, so I don''t think that applies in my state.


Here''s what I drafted up to her, what do you think?

Hi landlord,

We have some issues with the cleaning charge. The price of $630 is absolutely absurd. Apartments and townhomes in the area charge $150-300 maximum for cleaning, which is in line with local cleaning company rates that we have seen. Also, I''d like you to please explain the purpose of the pet fee, if not to pay for the additional cleaning that pets require.

State law says that no tenant should be held responsible for normal wear and tear, and your unit was left in original condition minus normal wear and tear, with the exception of the blinds, which we are happy to pay for. The Landlord Tenant Act (RCW 59.18.280) requires you to refund my deposit and/or give me a written list of specific, itemized deductions from my deposit within 14 days after the day I moved out. If you fail to do this you waive any rights to my deposit. At this time we require an itemized receipt from the cleaning company.

The items on the additional move out comments were not included on the signed move out list, therefore you cannot charge us for them.

State law provides that I may collect twice the amount of my deposit plus court costs and attorney fees if we must go to court, which we will do if this is not resolved in a timely manner.

Thank you,
Sunny and Mr.

I am sorry you are having these problems - renting can really suck!

You have been given great advice and my 0.02 is that you file with small claims and NOT contact the ex-LL at all. I would file and send the LL a copy of the filing asking that they return your deposit in full. That way if they don''t reply you have not wasted time.

Your ex-LL sound like a nasty piece of work.

 

[kama_s]

Sunny, that was a very well written and to the point e-mail. I hope they return what they owe you soon. Unless you live in a 10 bedroom mansion, anything above 200-250$ is absurd for cleaning!

 

[neatfreak]

That''s a good letter-but make sure to state that they needed to RETURN the deposit to you within 14 days-thus as it is right now they can''t deduct anything.

I would send them the letter first-they might back down and then you don''t need to deal with court.

 

[Emeraldfan]

Hi sunny,

I think trying to resolve this with the LL before going to court is the best option as they may back down and you don't want to go to court if you don't have to - it can be very time consuming even though it is small claims court.

I took the liberty of revising your letter to the LL. Please feel free to use it or disregard it as you see fit. Also, please note that this in no way constitutes legal advice and it may be helpful to consult an attorney about your specific situation.


Hi landlord,

In further reviewing the cleaning charge, we have several issues with the amount. The price of $630 is completely out of line with current standards. Typical apartments and townhomes in the area charge $150-300 maximum for cleaning, which is in line with local cleaning company rates that we have seen. Also, as to the pet fee, I do not understand why we were charged this fee if not to pay for the additional cleaning that pets require. Can you please explain.

Regarding the legality of the amount, state law dictates that no tenant should be held responsible for normal wear and tear and it also requires you to furnish a receipt of the cleaning bill upon request (which we now so request). Your unit was left in original condition minus normal wear and tear, with the exception of the blinds, which we are happy to pay for. Additionally, as we had a pre-move out inspection and signed an agreed upon list for cleaning/repair, state law dictates that we cannot be charged for any of the additional items listed in your email to me on the 14th. Consequently, taking off these items should significantly reduce the $630 amount to something more in line with current standards.

Lastly, as my deposit was not returned to me within the 14 day period required by The Landlord Tenant Act (RCW 59.18.280) all of my security deposit amount must be refunded to me in full. The law states “The landlord has 14 days after a tenant moves out to return a deposit, or give a written explanation of why it (or any part of it) was not refunded. If a landlord does not comply, the full amount of the deposit must be refunded to the tenant, regardless of any claims by the landlord that the tenant is not entitled to a refund.” As you gave me a list which was not in line with our pre-inspection list and failed to return the remainder of my deposit by the 14th day, you waived any rights to my deposit and I expect my deposit returned to me in full.

I would like to resolve this, however, if we do not reach a mutual agreement I am willing to take this to small claims court. State law provides that I may collect twice the amount of my deposit plus court costs and attorney fees if we must go to court. As this would be a time consuming avenue for both of us, I think it would be in our best interests to amicably resolve this quickly. Please let me know your thoughts and provide me the itemized cleaning receipts in a timely manner.

Thank you,
Sunny and Mr.

 

[sunnyd]

Thanks Kama and Neat. I added a statement that we are entitled to our full deposit if she cannot produce an itemized receipt for the cleaning since it has been more than 14 days since we moved out. Hopefully we can agree on a more acceptable cleaning fee without resorting to court.

 

[sunnyd]

Oh EmeraldFan, I just pressed send!

I appreciate your revision though, thank you.

 

[Emeraldfan]

No worries. I had some free time and thought I would take a crack at it as I went through something similar a few years back. Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.

 

[lilyfoot]

sunny, I''m so glad you started a thread on this! You are more than welcome for all the advice. I see that you''ve already sent the email to your landlord. It seems pretty good. Kudos on quoting the state''s statute, that shows you really know what you''re talking about. Personally, since she didn''t comply with the statute (it''s been more than 14 days and no itemized list), I would''ve told her she needed to refund the whole deposit. It''s exactly the situation I was in with my landlord (here in Fl it''s 30 days, he sent the itemized list after 42 days!)

Please keep us updated!

 

[lilyfoot]

Also, make sure you are printing out copies of all correspondence between you and the landlord.

Hopefully you won''t have to go to small claims court, but just in case ..

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 11/16/2009 3:55:03 PM
Author: lilyfoot
sunny, I''m so glad you started a thread on this! You are more than welcome for all the advice. I see that you''ve already sent the email to your landlord. It seems pretty good. Kudos on quoting the state''s statute, that shows you really know what you''re talking about. Personally, since she didn''t comply with the statute (it''s been more than 14 days and no itemized list), I would''ve told her she needed to refund the whole deposit. It''s exactly the situation I was in with my landlord (here in Fl it''s 30 days, he sent the itemized list after 42 days!)

Please keep us updated!

I think the timeline gets muddled since she didn''t have a forwarding address for us, but maybe she doesn''t know that! I don''t even care how long it takes, I just want my money!

 

[packrat]

Good grief that''s a lot for cleaning! I hope they back down and give you the full deposit back-it''s just ridiculous. I''d like to work for their cleaning company tho.

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 11/16/2009 5:02:43 PM
Author: packrat
Good grief that''s a lot for cleaning! I hope they back down and give you the full deposit back-it''s just ridiculous. I''d like to work for their cleaning company tho.

Seriously! I''d be rich!

 

[Italiahaircolor]

I cannot touch on the laws of your state...

But I can add that post-resident cleaning is different than "normal" cleaning. Two years ago when my first tenants left my condo, I did have a cleaning crew come in, and I will tell you the bill was very, very high. Basically, different things need to be done...not just floors and toilets.

On a side note, I do pay my cleaning lady $30.00 per hour (or that is the way her flat fee/time break down works out).

 

[October2008bride]

That is crazy talk. I understand anything above and beyond regular wear and tear, but after living somewhere for a few years, I think that it is the landlords responsibility to do a through clean. The benefit of that cleaning is that they can rent it out to someone else next. You shouldn''t have to bear the brunt of that. I liken it to apartment buildings who repaint units before every new tenant. It is just a cost of being in the rental business.

I think that if you went to court, any judge would say that 630 is not reasonable for a cleaning fee. Sure, if there was damage that was your fault that went above ''normal wear and tear'' I could understand. But no way is 630 a reasonable amount to pass on to the past tenant.

I''m sorry sunny - that stinks!

 

[perry]

1) Make sure you send that letter registered with return reciept. But,

2) Be advised that there is likely a clause in the lease that the landlord can collect attorney and court fees from you if they pervial in any court action. Finally,

3) If the check out list indicated that the appartment was dirty... you may have zero legal legs to stand on. I''ve personally spent 12 hours cleaning an efficiency apartment (more than once) after people moved out when I was resident managing. If they hired a cleaning company to clean the place - and the bill is $630. Then it will be hard to argue about how much the place needed cleaning before the new tennants moved in. Note that our leases indicated that the carpets had to be cleaned (and stains removed) by the tennant at move-out. Often - that was a good chunk of the cleaning hours for an appartment.

Note that here in Wisconsin, back in the 80''s our owner always went to court on these things - and always won too. He actually ran decent properties; but was not shy at all about going to court either.

While you can send the letter; be sure you really have your ducks in a row (legally) before filing a court claim.

Perry