First Timer - 2 Stones Need Advice!

[SlightlyLost]

Hello everyone. This site has been a huge help to me throughout this process. However, I find myself slightly stuck the moment. I am looking at two stones currently. One is a GIA stone and the other is an EGL USA stone. I will not be able to see the EGL USA stone in person before buying, however I have seen pictures of the actual stone. I need help deciding which, if either stone I should buy. I am looking for something in the 1.25 to 1.6 carat range. However, I definitely do NOT want to sacrafice quality for size. As long as nothing imperfect is visible to the naked eye that is ok with me. Basically, I need a naked eye perfect stone, not a paper perfect stone.

Stone 1 - 1.56 Carat GIA (Cert# 12227007)
Measurements 7.41 - 7.47 x 4.56mm
Color - G
Clarity - SI2

Depth 61.3%
Table 60%
Girdle Thin to Sightly Thick, Faceted
Cutet None

Polish Very Good
Symmetry Good
Fluorescense None

My biggest fear with this stone is that "cut" was not graded. How concerned would you be about this? I've seen this in person and even under 10x scope and the SI2 in my opinion is very good. The jeweler has offered to sell me this stone for $8,000.

Stone 2 - 1.55 Carat EGL USA Stone (Cert# US 50949605D
Measurements 7.29 - 7.25 x 4.62mm
Depth 63.6%
Table 57%
Crown 16.8%
Pavilion 42.6%
Girdle Medium to Sl Thick Faceted
Cutlet None

Polish Very Good
Symmetry Very Good

Clarity SI2
Color H
Flourescense None
Color - G
Clarity - SI2

The jeweler has assured me there aren't any visible inclusion to the naked eye and that the stone is very nice. I trust this jeweler as I know them through work. The jeweler has offered me this stone for $7,800. Any advice you experts could have for me would be greatly appreciated!

 

[04diamond<3]

Do you need to buy from there??? I'd throw that GIA one out ASAP! And the EGL, well there isn't enough information or pictures for me to say anything about it... I found a 1.52 F Si2 for $8100 that's a stunning cut:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1545152.asp

 

[SlightlyLost]

Thanks for the reply! No, I certainly don't have to pick from one of those two or even from either of those jewelers. That was my gut instinct with the GIA stone. In regards to the stone you linked, everytime I pull up a GIA cert with the inclusions drawing, I get nervous that there are too many inclusions and I will be able to see them with the naked eye! Can you shed any light on this?

 

[Lula]

Do you need to buy from there??? I'd throw that GIA one out ASAP! And the EGL, well there isn't enough information or pictures for me to say anything about it... I found a 1.52 F Si2 for $8100 that's a stunning cut:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1545152.asp

The James Allen diamond is on the deep side (ETA: bordering steep-deep), and it's got strong blue fluorescence, which you may or may not like.


What are the other dimensions on the GIA report for the stone you saw at your jewelers (crown angle, pavilion angle, stars, LGF)? It could be a nice stone. It looks like a 60/60 cut rather than a Tolkowsky ideal cut that is typically preferred on this forum. There is nothing wrong with a well-cut 60/60 stone, but we need the other numbers from the report to tell you more.

 

[Lula]

Thanks for the reply! No, I certainly don't have to pick from one of those two or even from either of those jewelers. That was my gut instinct with the GIA stone. In regards to the stone you linked, everytime I pull up a GIA cert with the inclusions drawing, I get nervous that there are too many inclusions and I will be able to see them with the naked eye! Can you shed any light on this?

Yes, with many -- not all -- SI2 clarity stones, especially larger stones, you or your fiancee may be able to see the inclusions with your naked eye. Clarity has to be evaluated in person.

 

[SlightlyLost]

Those were the only characteristics on the GIA report. It made me nervous as it was rather incomplete. Should I ask the jeweler to get an updated one? Would they even consider doing that?

 

[Lula]

Those were the only characteristics on the GIA report. It made me nervous as it was rather incomplete. Should I ask the jeweler to get an updated one? Would they even consider doing that?

Yes, I think you should ask the jeweler to get an updated report from GIA with a cut grade. If he is not willing to do this, ask to see only GIA Excellent cut stones. Give him a size, color, clarity, price range to work with. He should be able to call in some stones for you to compare. You want to keep the depth of the stone at 62 percent or lower, and the table 57 percent or lower for a Tolkowsky ideal cut. For a 60/60 you want to keep the depth around 60 and the table 58 - 60. We can help you evaluate the other numbers on the GIA report when you receive the stones. Also, just so I'm clear, did you see this GIA diamond in person?

Forgot to add -- if you want to continue working with this jeweler, that is fine. We can help you evaluate the diamonds he brings in for you. Many people prefer to buy from a jeweler and see the stones in person. You just have to educate yourself on what to look for. If you'd like to work with an online vendor, we can help you locate some stones from reputable online vendors.

Take a look at this article -- http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/laboratory-cut-grades-what-the.htm it will show you the variety of diamonds graded GIA Excellent. Not all are good-looking diamonds.
A well-cut 60-60 diamond should look like #4.
#'s 2, 6, and 8 are examples of Tolkowsky ideal cut diamonds.

 

[04diamond<3]

the diamond i posted was a *hair* deep, but not "too deep", and it's an F. As far as it being an SI2, it all depends on the location of the inclusions. For the most part the bigger inclusions seem to be close to the border so they can easily be hidden by a prong. The other inclusions are small enough that you may not see them in person even. With a 2 or 3ct, I'd be more concerned with it being an SI2, but not with a 1.5 carat. Jewelry stores tend to charge more for stones which is why I'd ditch them...but it's up to you.

 

[SlightlyLost]

Yes, I did view the GIA stone in person. Everything looks good at it to me but I can't really tell the difference or know exactly what to look for. It sparkled and it was shiny! It seems to me that if the GIA 1.55 ct stone is cut excellent, then even online I can't find a price near $8K for it...

 

[SlightlyLost]

Is there a reason why Tolkowsky cuts are preferred to 60-60 cuts?

 

[Lula]

Yes, I did view the GIA stone in person. Everything looks good at it to me but I can't really tell the difference or know exactly what to look for. It sparkled and it was shiny! It seems to me that if the GIA 1.55 ct stone is cut excellent, then even online I can't find a price near $8K for it...

How many diamonds have you looked at in person? If you are not on a tight timeline, take some time to visit other jewelers and ask to see any GIA excellent or AGS 0 stones that they have in stock. If you live near a store that sells Tolkowsky Ideal Cut branded stones or Hearts on Fire branded stones or Jared Peerless branded stones, go look at those. They will be expensive, but you will see what a difference good cut makes. Compare colors, clarities, and cut parameters. That's the best way to train your eye. If the GIA stone at your jewelers is indeed a well-cut 60/60, $8K is a good price. You could also ask your jeweler if he's got a SARIN machine, and, if so, he can get the crown angle, etc., that way.

I'd still prefer to see him send the stone in for a new GIA report. You get better value for your money with a GIA or AGS report with a cut grade on it. It's very important to know what you are buying. And we just don't know without those other numbers.

You might want to read up on the HCA. It's a handy little tool you can use to do a quick and dirty evaluation of stones based on just a few numbers. You want a score of 2 or below, but there are good stones that score a bit above 2.

https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

 

[Lula]

the diamond i posted was a *hair* deep, but not "too deep", and it's an F. As far as it being an SI2, it all depends on the location of the inclusions. For the most part the bigger inclusions seem to be close to the border so they can easily be hidden by a prong. The other inclusions are small enough that you may not see them in person even. With a 2 or 3ct, I'd be more concerned with it being an SI2, but not with a 1.5 carat. Jewelry stores tend to charge more for stones which is why I'd ditch them...but it's up to you.

Check the HCA score. Don't mean to be a jerk here, but that stone is a good example of why you can't always trust GIA's Excellent cut grade.

 

[Lula]

Is there a reason why Tolkowsky cuts are preferred to 60-60 cuts?

Most people here prefer the smaller tables and higher crowns of Tolkowsky cut stones. It's simply a visual preference. 60/60 cuts are perfectly fine -- when cut well. They just have a different look to them.

 

[04diamond<3]

the diamond i posted was a *hair* deep, but not "too deep", and it's an F. As far as it being an SI2, it all depends on the location of the inclusions. For the most part the bigger inclusions seem to be close to the border so they can easily be hidden by a prong. The other inclusions are small enough that you may not see them in person even. With a 2 or 3ct, I'd be more concerned with it being an SI2, but not with a 1.5 carat. Jewelry stores tend to charge more for stones which is why I'd ditch them...but it's up to you.

Check the HCA score. Don't mean to be a jerk here, but that stone is a good example of why you can't always trust GIA's Excellent cut grade.

I did and it's a 2...I was just thinking for a stone this size, with this color and well positioned inclusions, it was a good price.

 

[SlightlyLost]

I got some more porportions for the EGL USA stone. Depth 63.6. Table 57. Crown 16.8. Pavillion 42.6

It seems the crown is way off. Could this bee correct?

 

[SlightlyLost]

Actually I put them in the HCA tool and it came back as a 3.0. Very good - worth buying if price is right. Do you think $7,800 is a good price given these traits? I've uploaded a picture of the actual stone too. Not sure if it is clear enough.

 

[04diamond<3]

A 3 is a bit high and the proportions look off. I would skip on that stone too! I don't like the way it looks either.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I got some more porportions for the EGL USA stone. Depth 63.6. Table 57. Crown 16.8. Pavillion 42.6

It seems the crown is way off. Could this bee correct?

too deep...

 

[Lula]

Actually I put them in the HCA tool and it came back as a 3.0. Very good - worth buying if price is right. Do you think $7,800 is a good price given these traits? I've uploaded a picture of the actual stone too. Not sure if it is clear enough.

Using the crown and pavilion percentages is less accurate than using the crown and pavilion angles (see the notes at the bottom of the HCA page). The problem with the EGL stone is that it is very deep, and the depth means that it will look smaller than other 1.55 carat stones that are not as deep. A well cut 1.50 carat stone should be about 7.40 mm. The EGL stone is only 7.25 mm, so even though it weighs 1.55 carats, it looks like it's only a 1.35 carat stone. It's always hard to tell how well a diamond is cut from just one photo taken from an angle at a distance, but it does appear that the stone's clarity will be an issue. It looks very included to me. I would definitely pass on that EGL stone. It is not a bargain.

ETA: Here's a chart to show you the measurements and carat weight numbers:
http://www.fireandicediamond.com/Calculating-Brilliant-Cut.html

 

[WinkHPD]

Not to beat a dead horse, but you really have no idea what the EGL diamond really is on the GIA scale. EGL has a reputation of reporting grades that are one or two grades too high. The Trade discounts EGL USA about 28% from a GIA graded diamond. EGL Israel is more like 48% discounted from a GIA graded diamond.

When you buy an EGL graded diamond you are buying a pig in a poke. Once in a blue moon it is what it is supposed to be and thus a great value at its discounted price, but most often you are paying too much!

Wink

P.S. To really get a good idea of what a stone looks like, ask your vendor, since you are working local, to show you at least three stones in a slotted tray without giving you any information about any of them. See which one your eye likes and then ask about which is which. Once you know what YOUR eye likes, it is okay to choose something that would never be chosen on paper.

It has been my experience that cut is almost always the first choice factor with stones not well cut being eliminated quickly. Once you are down to your top cut gems, size is often the next factor with a larger gem with lower color and clarity grades being chosen BY THE EYE over stones of higher color and clarity. (Which is why it is so important not to know anything before choosing which your eye likes. Your eyes will tell you so much more than paper!)

 

[SlightlyLost]

Thanks for all of your help everyone. I decided to pass on both of these stones and continue my search.