First time poster with questions about setting an OEC

[idiotsavant]

Hi there everybody. Long time reader, first time poster here. Be gentle

I've been shopping for an e-ring for a while now, and finally brought my girlfriend in for her opinion on some things. In window shopping and researching, she found that she really liked a stone in the .75 carat range (I know...miniscule by Pricescope standards). She also decided she really likes the six-prong Tiffany setting in white gold.

So, after doing a bit more research, I found that a long-time client and friend of mine is a part-time diamond man. My girlfriend and I went to look at a bit of his inventory, and she (and I) fell in love with one stone in particular. This particular stone was pulled from a setting bought in an estate sale.

The stone is a 1.10 Carat, Old European cut round. It's pending EGL USA cert now, but based on what I can tell (my name is idiotsavant, so take this with a grain of salt), it looks to be roughly a J color and I'll say VS2 to be safe (I've viewed it two separate times in different lighting with a loupe and I can't see any inclusions, so it seems to be eye clean by my questionable standards) and looks pretty darn symmetrical to my eye. And boy does it sparkle! I didn't expect an OEC to be so vibrant! The best part is I'm getting a pretty hefty friend discount and feel great about the prices I'm being quoted here (I won't post the price here for fear that there is a forum rule against it I'm unaware of).

So, to my actual question:

Will a 1.1 carat OEC look OK in a modern 6 prong, very thin band solitaire setting? Is there anything I should be worried about here?

I've done what feels like a pretty thorough search, and I'm having a really hard time finding pictures of this look, so I'm getting a bit worried. If any of you have any pictures, comments, or concerns, I would love to see/hear them.

Thank you!

 

[sphenequeen]

Welcome!
Considering that the Tiffany 6 prong solitaire has been around since before the turn of the 20th century, I do not think that the ring will look strange with an OEC. Does your girlfriend want something off-the-shelf or custom made? I ask because many prefabricated 6 prong solitaires are a bit bulky and the diamond sits unnecessarily high... just a thought.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Sure, it will look okay. I made a long thread awhile back about the same issue. I really like a plain Tiffany style setting. But an OEC will probably look more at home in an antique setting. However, she is the one looking at the ring the most, so put it in whatever she wants!

Did you measure the diameter of the stone? Find that out if you didn't. Also, I would advise you to post the price. I wouldn't buy it until the EGL grading comes in. And then you need to compare the price to other EGL graded stones, not GIA.

The other reason to have it evaluated is because some OEC's have very thin girdles and the stone either needs to be set in a bezel setting or sent to have the girdle polished so that it will not be less than thin. You wouldn't want to set it in a prong setting with a very thin girdle because the stone could chip.

This is the downside of dealing with friends or friends of friends. Keep it all business and do it just like you would if it was a jewelry store. A return policy is essential if you buy before the grading is done.

 

[idiotsavant]

Thank you both for the quick responses!

This is going to be a "semi-custom" setting, I suppose. I made it very clear that we want very "dainty" prongs, and that the diamond should be set as low as possible (my girlfriend strongly prefers that the diamond sit as low as possible on the ring). I did not measure the diameter of the stone, but based on eyeballing it next to some round brilliant .70ishs, I'd guestimate somewhere in the area of 6.25mm. It was significantly larger than a 3/4 carat round.

No money will change hands until I have the cert in hand (except for a small deposit, of course) The diamond was previously set in a 60s platinum art deco kind of looking ring with a 4 prong/basket type setting. I saw it in this setting before it was removed, so I don't imagine there will be any problem throwing it in a 6 prong setting.

I feel pretty confident that it is a great price, I'm looking at $2500 for the stone itself. Based on what I see on jbeg or oldworlddiamonds.com, this seems like a steal. That's why I'm waiting for the report before I get too excited! If it comes in with specs anywhere near what I'm expecting, it would be a great value.

 

[Dreamer_D]

It will look fine in a six prong simple solitaire. And six prongs is likely enough to protect all but the most knife edge girdle.

That is a fair price assuming the lab report comes back with a weight over 1ct and near colorless and VS.

 

[chrono]

Nothing wrong with a 6 prong setting for an OEC. It is timeless and goes with practically everything. However, just like modern cut stones, some OECs are better cut than others. You mentioned it being spready so do watch out that it isn't overly shallow and that the table is small, coupled together with the right "look". 6.25 mm is very shallow for a 0.7 ct-ish OEC. EGL USA is fine in this case and I would wait on the result before deciding if the price is right.

 

[idiotsavant]

Thank you all for your opinions of the six prong setting. I still haven't seen one!

You mentioned it being spready so do watch out that it isn't overly shallow and that the table is small, coupled together with the right "look". 6.25 mm is very shallow for a 0.7 ct-ish OEC.

It is actually a 1.1 carat OEC, I was just comparing its size to a round brilliant .7 ct. I don't think it is very spready. I think it is significantly deeper than a similar weight round brilliant cut.

Even if this were to come back from EGL at M color (which I can't possibly imagine, as it looks very white to me) and SI1 (again, i would be very surprised because I can't see anything with a loupe), wouldn't this still be a steal at $2500? It looks very symmetrical to my eye and has plenty of sparkle.

What could possibly come back on that report to make me worry? Does an EGL report talk about girdle chips, surface inclusions, or anything like that? Is there anything that could possibly come back on the report to make this a bad deal? Would it be best to have it looked at loose by a professional appraiser? I'm not trying to go crazy on a little $2500 stone that will never be resold and probably won't even be insured.

Thanks!

 

[chrono]

A 1.1 ct M, SI1 is still a good deal if it only costs $2500. The EGL report will give you the details of the cut (table, crown, pavilion and depth which gives you some idea of how well cut it is, which translates into light performance). It will not tell you if it has a chip or surface inclusion, only a clarity grading. You should be able to spot these yourself with a loupe.

 

[idiotsavant]

A 1.1 ct M, SI1 is still a good deal if it only costs $2500. The EGL report will give you the details of the cut (table, crown, pavilion and depth which gives you some idea of how well cut it is, which translates into light performance). It will not tell you if it has a chip or surface inclusion, only a clarity grading. You should be able to spot these yourself with a loupe.

That's my thinking here...I find myself not really caring about the EGL report because I don't see any chips, inclusions etc on the diamond, and both myself and my girlfriend fell in love with the stone (after going to several retail diamond locations, including everything from Jared to Tiffany and in between. The stone just feels more romantic...it's hard to explain). Would a "bad" cut on a 1.1ct M/SI1 make it worth less than $2500? I can't imagine it's bad, seeing as we've seen the diamond in person a couple of times now and love the way it looks and sparkles, but I'm trying to be exceptionally conservative here. I really believe it is a J/VS1ish, the gentleman who is selling it says he thinks it is I/VS1.

So excuse me if this is blasphemy or a crude, dirty question...but does one really NEED a certificate when buying a diamond? I will be getting one obviously, but it makes me wonder. I can see when buying online especially it is probably necessary, but when you see a diamond in person, and it's obviously diamond, and you're not planning on reselling it, upgrading later, etc, and you love it...what is the added benefit of the cert? Peace of mind?

 

[TC1987]

The report establishes the basis for insurance or replacement, or for selling the diamond, or for comparison shopping to determine what a fair price is. If you don't care about those things, the report may not be important to you. Having some documentation for insurance and/or filing a claim of loss or damage is one of the best reasons. But some people elect to not insure rings.

An OEC or OMC will look great in a Tiffany 6-prong. Some of them were originally set that way, actually. My only caution is to be vigilant for chipping around the girdle. I had my OEC in a 6-prong and it did get a few dings due to thin or very thin girdle. The halo mountings that have low prongs or a full bezel do offer more protection. But some of those OECs "window" a bit due to the way they are cut, and being low-set sometimes means that you have black windows, lol. A leaky diamond often looks better set in Tiffany prongs than in a low or boxy mounting.

eta: I thought the Tiffy prong setting debuted in the 1920s, but sources on the Internet say 1886.

 

[idiotsavant]

The report establishes the basis for insurance or replacement, or for selling the diamond, or for comparison shopping to determine what a fair price is. If you don't care about those things, the report may not be important to you. Having some documentation for insurance and/or filing a claim of loss or damage is one of the best reasons. But some people elect to not insure rings.

An OEC or OMC will look great in a Tiffany 6-prong. Some of them were originally set that way, actually. My only caution is to be vigilant for chipping around the girdle. I had my OEC in a 6-prong and it did get a few dings due to thin or very thin girdle. The halo mountings that have low prongs or a full bezel do offer more protection. But some of those OECs "window" a bit due to the way they are cut, and being low-set sometimes means that you have black windows, lol. A leaky diamond often looks better set in Tiffany prongs than in a low or boxy mounting.

eta: I thought the Tiffy prong setting debuted in the 1920s, but sources on the Internet say 1886.

Thanks for the feedback! Edit: I will be going back to look again before I put a deposit down and work begins, and I am going to go over the girdle extra thoroughly with the loupe to make sure it isn't exceptionally thin and that there are no chips. I'm really glad you folks brought this up!

The stone does have quite a culet on it, so staring directly down on it gives you the "window" effect. You see the culet, and my GF and I both decided we rather liked its character. She loved the idea of a vintage stone (seeing as this was probably cut sometime around the turn of the century) with a new band that is all her own. She quite liked a 1923 platinum wedding band he had in inventory, but she HATED the fancy platinum setting engagement ring that was its matched set. Oh well

Anywho, with setting the diamond "low" in a tiffany six prong yield this black window result? She doesn't want the diamond "hanging" in the setting, she wants it to sit flush with the ring (a la the tiffany rings we looked at). Maybe I will instruct the jeweler to set it up a bit off the ring, just to ensure some light comes through the culet?

 

[chrono]

Yes, a bad cut can potentially drop its value to under $1500. My other caution is that if you have not seen many OECs, your eyes will not be trained to differentiate a good cut from a poor cut, especially when viewed under special jewellery type lighting. I've seen too many inexperienced buyers ooh and aah over cruddy mall stones that are giant light leakers as they've never seen how amazing ideal cut stones are in comparison.

A certificate is not necessary but it is a good piece of mind to know if you are paying a fair price and buying what was advertised. It is good information to have for insurance purposes and you just never know if you are forced to sell it one day. I'm also sure the future receipient of the stone (daughter or son) will appreciate knowing the stone's exact stats. The report will also give you information about the thinness / thickness of the girdle.

If the OEC is well cut, you can even bezel set it without affecting the light performance negatively. It all depends on the cut quality. My OEC is bezeled and I can still see the open culet, so it is unnecessary to have it purposely set up higher to see this effect.

 

[idiotsavant]

I am very suspicious of lighting...I've seen this diamond under office (fluorescent) lights (which i've heard are the worst for diamonds), in natural outdoor light (shade and direct sun), and incandescent home lights. The sparkle seems very evident in all of the lighting, and when my girlfriend got to see it, it was under a mixture of natural and incandescent light (sitting in a kitchen next to a giant window). I make no claims as far as knowing what a proper cut looks like, but I do know that I didn't see any of the following I was looking for:

-excessive shallowness...it is a rather deep...signifcantly deeper than a round brilliant
-"nailhead" I've heard so much about
-"lazy" facets
-visible inclusions.
-the reflection you can get from a rough girdle

I will be double checking the girdle for excessive thinness or thickness and chips as well, thanks to this thread.

I've looked at a few AGS 000 cut diamonds in person, and the symmetry is quite beautiful and boy do they sparkle! I would never claim that this diamond performs better than an ideal cut diamond, but something about the charm of the OEC cut excited both myself and my girlfriend.

Bezel set was one of the options the jeweler discussed with us, and actually had quite a few antique settings to show us. The GF (read: boss) doesn't like the bezel setting though...she wants a thin band, 6 prong, and no side diamonds whatsoever. The jeweler is also going get/modify/make us a nice matching wedding band (probably shared prong half-eternity) in 18k gold to match. She's a simple girl!

 

[kelpie]

As others mentioned the classic Tiffany setting so popular today is a contemporary to old european cuts (1886 actually), so I think it'd look right at home.

 

[chrono]

What about the facet pattern? Does it have the Kozibe effect? Does it look more flowery or mosiac? Just curious.

 

[Dreamer_D]

YOu need a lab report when you are new to diamonds like you are One color or clarity grade makes a huge differences. If it is an M Si1 by EGL then, no, I do not personally consider $2500 to be a total steal! Not from an estate seller. Retail comps seem to be in the $3300 range for that color and clarity at OWD, but who knows what that stone would actually sell for -- I have heard there can be wiggle room in pricing. So $2500 would be a good price but not a wacky steal.

Is 1.10ct a known weight? WHat is the diameter and depth measurements? A report will tell you these things.

But here is the thing you cannot judge if you are not well versed in old cuts: Cut quality. Some would suggest that beauty is 100% in the eye of the beholder with old cuts. I think that is the case within certain parameters. But I also think that there are some old cuts that are just poorly cut. And without "trained eyes" -- which means experience seeing many old cuts specifically -- then you may not know what to look for. This matters because cut quality matters a lot to the value of these old cuts. A poorly cut 1.10 M SI1 costs much much less than a really well cut one (not matter its flavour or style of cut). Rarity of the cut matters too. There are also a lot of vendors selling so-called OECs that are NOT actually OECs, that are in fact just poorly cut modern rounds or perhaps well cut early modern round brilliants. Could you tell the difference? I wager not, unless you really know old cuts. And it matters because it affects price A LOT. Think, double.

Do not get too attached to this stone yet in my opinion. Wait for the report. Then, if you can, see some other old cuts in person. As many as possible, to learn about this cut style and your own preferences. You can also post photos here, but taking good photos of diamonds is hard and we would need to see the faceting to really judge.

 

[idiotsavant]

I've got some updates on the Diamond! I wanted to thank you all for your help and insight again, this has been a very fun process.

After reading here last time I went and did a LOT more research on OEC's so I could be better equipped the next chance I got to see the diamond. I have no pictures to share My cell phone just wasn't of any value in taking photos. So...here is what I found.

The diamond is very round. I measured it at several different points of rotation with a millimeter gauge and it's right about 6.1-6.2 mm. The carat weight is verified at 1.1 as well, so the proportions seem about right for an OEC. Obviously not as much spread as a similar weight brilliant round, but still pretty good spread for a heavy old stone

I had a chance to set it next to some graded stones to compare color, and I'm pretty damn confident it's I-J...and can't imagine it getting graded worse than that. I just can't see how it could possibly grade in the K L M range.

There are no chips along the girdle (or anywhere I see), and the girdle is easily visible using a loupe. It looks very symmetrical to my eye and has the kind of "floral" pattern a lot of folks talk about.

The really fun thing is that the first time I saw it I didn't even know what the Kozibe effect was. Well, I was looking for it this time and OH MY GOODNESS!! They're everywhere! Haha, it was really fun to have an idea of what I was looking for and spot it. It's such a brilliant little stone, I'm completely in love (I know that's dangerous).

Anywho, I'm looking at $3000 total for this stone, a 18k Tiffany copycat 6 prong solitaire, and matching half eternity band in 18k gold with probably 1 point stones (my girl wants a VERY dainty set...so the bands will be very thin). I think I'm going to move forward by having him go ahead and get the cert, then have work begin. I'm in no hurry here, but will keep you all updated on the progress!

 

[CharmyPoo]

Are you personally comparing the diamonds bottom up and on the side? Many OECs face up incredibly white - my J/K EGL graded OEC is super white from the top. The other thing to note is that great deals on OECs can be had especially on eBay. My jaw is still wide opened thinking about how little some of our seasoned ebayers paid for stones on here.

 

[sweetpea&babycorn]

Congratulations on taking a big step! I also commend anyone who reads up on OECs, they can be so tricky!

My boyfriend and I also recently purchased an OEC in a solitaire setting, and I am so happy with our decision because it lets us be creative with wedding bands. When it came to my OEC, I decided to go by what I saw with my eyes, so if the stone speaks to your eyes, then I don't think you can go all that wrong, unless you really have no idea what you're looking at, which doesn't apply to you since you've done great research! You're probably going ahead with the 6-prong Tiffany style, but have you searched for OEC solitaires? Lots of PSers have have OEC solitaires, and they all look beautiful. Here is a pic of my ring: it's 4-prong instead of 6-prong, and a basket solitaire instead of the Tiffany style, but it gives you an idea of what it could look like - I think it's a very classy timeless look even when the setting is more modern than the diamond.




I'm looking forward to hearing about the progress on this ring and how it turns out!

 

[idiotsavant]

Gorgeous ring you have there!!! That looks very similar to what my future fiance wants. I completely agree with you; the modern-ish looking solitaire+OEC is a beautiful combination.

She originally was pretty sure she wanted a 4 prong setting, but after going and looking in person she appreciated how the 6 prongs preserve the round shape of the diamond better...she thought the 4 prongs sort of squared the diamond off and preferred 6 daintier prongs to 4 thicker ones. It seems to generally be personal preference, and I think your ring is beautiful! I really appreciate you sharing it with me on this thread.

I will absolutely keep you all updated as this progresses

 

[ForteKitty]

My big oec is set in a 2mm comfort band, and my 2ct is set in a very thin and tapered setting. Both have 6 prongs. This thread has lots of pics of it set in a 6 prong ring between pages 6-9: https://www.pricescope.com/forum/show-me-the-ring/my-amazing-holy-grail-9-9mm-oec-t178975-150.html. I've really grown to love the simple solitaire look for an older cut.

 

[idiotsavant]

Are you personally comparing the diamonds bottom up and on the side? Many OECs face up incredibly white - my J/K EGL graded OEC is super white from the top. The other thing to note is that great deals on OECs can be had especially on eBay. My jaw is still wide opened thinking about how little some of our seasoned ebayers paid for stones on here.

Sorry, didn't see this before i posted my other reply.

I was able to compare the diamonds loose from as many angles as I could imagine. I even did the 'ol business card trick and folded a bright white card and placed them in the crease to view from the side. I'm no GIA grad, but I feel like I got a pretty good idea.

eBay always freaks me out with big purchases (I once dealt with buying what turned out to be fake golf clubs, ugh), but I'm sure there are some amazing deals to be had.

One of the main reasons I really want this diamond is because, after several days of looking at stone after stone in stores and such, my girlfriends eyes absolutely lit up and she completely fell in love with it. It's hard to describe. Nothing was impressing her anywhere, she wasn't taking a second or third look at anything, she was bored by certificates and the 4 C's, etc. She picks up this little OEC and 30 minutes later shes still looking at it through a loupe, holding it over her finger, etc. She just asked me yesterday if it's still available because she really wants to make sure someone else doesn't buy it first! It's REALLY hard to say no to that , especially because I was planning on spending at least twice what this will ultimately cost me.

 

[idiotsavant]

My big oec is set in a 2mm comfort band, and my 2ct is set in a very thin and tapered setting. Both have 6 prongs. This thread has lots of pics of it set in a 6 prong ring between pages 6-9: https://www.pricescope.com/forum/show-me-the-ring/my-amazing-holy-grail-9-9mm-oec-t178975-150.html. I've really grown to love the simple solitaire look for an older cut.

Holy Wow! 9.9 MM???? I think my girlfriends arm would get tired carrying that thing around!!! Thats a gorgeous stone...man this forum makes me feel like child's play!

The 2 ct setting you have there is pretty much what my girlfriend is looking for. Thank you so much for bringing it to my attention because that is really really close to what we'll end up with. I think she would prefer to not have it taper, but be roughly the thickness of the thinnest part of your band all the way around. We'll have to see how thin we can go structurally, and that I will leave up to the jeweler because I know nothing of precious metalwork

 

[ForteKitty]

Thanks! The 2ct's shank may be thin, but it has good height (from top of finger to top of shank) and feels very sturdy. The base is slightly wider than the very top, so it kind of gives the illusion that it's thinner than it actually is. If she prefers a thinner look, make sure it has height!

 

[idiotsavant]

Thanks! The 2ct's shank may be thin, but it has good height (from top of finger to top of shank) and feels very sturdy. The base is slightly wider than the very top, so it kind of gives the illusion that it's thinner than it actually is. If she prefers a thinner look, make sure it has height!

Just to be clear, what advantages will height give you? I ask this because she actually thinks she wants the stone as low as possible (she wears almost no jewelry so she's not into bling really, doesn't want it catching on things, etc.) and I would like some talking points to talk her out of it

 

[ForteKitty]

The prongs are normal height. The shank is what comes up a little higher. If the shank is both thin and flat, there is less material and will bend more easily. If it has more height, it'll be more sturdy. Only example I can think of is a regular straightened wire hanger vs a wire hanger that has two straightened wires fused together. The fused wires are still the same width, but twice as tall and much harder to bend compared to the single wire. sorry it's late and that's the only comp I can come up with.

eta: I don't recommend tall prongs. My rings bang on things all the time and I'm always gasping and frantically looking it over. I wouldn't go totally low and squatty either. You don't want it to look like someone squished it onto her finger.

 

[GemFever]

One of the main reasons I really want this diamond is because, after several days of looking at stone after stone in stores and such, my girlfriends eyes absolutely lit up and she completely fell in love with it. It's hard to describe. Nothing was impressing her anywhere, she wasn't taking a second or third look at anything, she was bored by certificates and the 4 C's, etc. She picks up this little OEC and 30 minutes later shes still looking at it through a loupe, holding it over her finger, etc. She just asked me yesterday if it's still available because she really wants to make sure someone else doesn't buy it first! It's REALLY hard to say no to that , especially because I was planning on spending at least twice what this will ultimately cost me.

It's so awesome how she's in love with it. In my experience, I'd say you're getting a great deal -- an entire set for 3K, with a beautiful 1ct OEC. Congrats! Please post hand shots once you have them

 

[sweetpea&babycorn]

One of the main reasons I really want this diamond is because, after several days of looking at stone after stone in stores and such, my girlfriends eyes absolutely lit up and she completely fell in love with it. It's hard to describe. Nothing was impressing her anywhere, she wasn't taking a second or third look at anything, she was bored by certificates and the 4 C's, etc. She picks up this little OEC and 30 minutes later shes still looking at it through a loupe, holding it over her finger, etc. She just asked me yesterday if it's still available because she really wants to make sure someone else doesn't buy it first! It's REALLY hard to say no to that , especially because I was planning on spending at least twice what this will ultimately cost me.

It's so awesome how she's in love with it. In my experience, I'd say you're getting a great deal -- an entire set for 3K, with a beautiful 1ct OEC. Congrats! Please post hand shots once you have them

Ditto! This is also why I went with an OEC too! Im so glad that youre getting her something she loves. They are so mesmerizing and sparkly. I can't wait to see shots of this beauty!

 

[Mara]

Ditto the others re: loving a solitaire for an OEC. I wore a more elaborate eternity engagement ring for a while but recently switched to a 6 prong tiffany style knife edged solitaire with an OEC. I love how the showcase is on the stone.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I would like to see photos of this diamond! Are you still waiting on the report? I did not see that. If no report then an appraisal?

The spread is small for the weight suggesting that the stone is very deep. A classic OEC with a nice make of that spread might be in the .95-1.05ct range. If its a old miner style then the weight and spread you mention is more consistent. The depth is ok if the crown is nice and high and the table very small. If the depth is in the pavilion and/or the table larger, and the lower halves too short, the stone could be a little lazy or even very dark under the table. Something to look for. You obviously like the diamond, but compare to some others -- have you dont this? Compared this diamond to other old cuts? And rest in on your fingers and then walk around to different lighting and see if it does dark under the table area when you look at it. A loose diamond will mask issues of over-deep obstruction, once set it could become more apparent.

If you can post pictures we can help offer opinions, but without them my comments are just "heads up" for things to watch for and check out.