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First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this board!

M

Mark2014

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
38
Hello everyone. First of all I really like to thank all the 'regulars' who have posted so much info. It has been great to learn from you. I also learned a lot from Todd Grays website and in GOG. I have done a lot of research and went to several local jewelers and saw probably 30+ diamonds. I even got some satisfaction from being able to tell color (not always of course) and recognize some of the presented inclusions. I guess I can be called a perfectionist but not sure if that is a benefit in finding my ideal engagement ring! So here it goes:

My budget is $30k all included. My greatest preference is going for the premium cut diamonds (think of the BGD Hearts and Arrows etc). Then again, should I let go of this "premium" desire as I probably will NEVER be able to tell it's a premium? I am hoping to find a diamond between 2.5-3 carat. I like the blue fluorescence is that would even be preferred. Color I or better, clarity SI1 or better. With these specs there are tons of choices out there but nothing that truly stands out when it comes to "value" so far. The local jewelers have been very helpful but I cannot help but thinking that I can find equivalent diamonds online at much better prices, and therefore, I like to find the perfect diamond (with platinum ring, solitary setting). Where it gets really confusing to me, when it comes to judging GIA XXX diamond cuts. They all have different cut values yet they are all considered triple excellent. Go figure.

Is it more common for this board to judge my selection? Or are is it also acceptable for members to present me new choices? One thing that is also a little unclear to me, should I be preferring AGS000 reports?

Thank you all!
Mark
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Here's a little information to get you started though:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is. And you need a reliable lab report which means GIA or AGS only.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And with MODERN ROUND BRILLIANTS GIA Ex is not enough.
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut (for round brilliants)
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone. For round brilliants that's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. James Allen, BGD, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool' for round brilliants. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA round brilliant you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 modern round brilliant stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

Now fancies (anything other than a modern round brilliant) are very different than rounds. Then you are talking faceting and light return only. And that's much harder. An ASET image can help you with that for fancies: http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_ASET_scope.asp As it evaluates light performance by TYPE of light. And the the experienced posters on this board can help teach you about whatever fancy shape it is that you are looking for.
Or, in the case of Princesses and cushions: you can short cut and get an ASG0 cushion or princess. They are RARE though, but we can direct you to vendors that carry them.
With other shapes... you are back to the time consuming method of searching out stones on an individual basis, which means pictures, videos, and ASET images.


:read: :read: :read: :read: :read: :read: I hope you enjoy your time here on Pricescope. We love newbies and helping them learn. So if you ever need something explained to you... just let us know and we'll be happy to help!
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

I think you picked 2 beauties! The BG diamond looks like the inclusions are more off to the side which might be preferrable, but if they're both eye clean I'd go with the one that's 3k cheaper =)
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

However you define H&A there will be a point where you cross into "just barely not." Although it's true that you can't tell a just barely H&A from a just barely not H&A, it does catch up with you eventually and the differences become visible. The real question is whether looking for a just barely not H&A is a good strategy for saving you money and of course how far is too far and how you know when you've gotten there.

GIA XXX is a fairly wide category, and about half of all stones being cut right now are GIA XXX, and most of those fall right on the edge of the grade. Although it can't be said that these edge stones are ugly, they do not have the same sort of look as a premium cut. AGS 000 is a much narrower grade. Some people might actually prefer the GIA XXX outliers for various reasons, but maximizing overall light return is not one of them.

It sounds to me like you want a premium cut because you like the idea of a premium cut. If that's the case, go for it. The other option would be to look at a range of "excellent" stones and convince yourself that you do (or do not) want the really ideal ones. There are quite a few videos to get you started if you don't have a good local jeweler to show you what to look for.
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

They both look absolutely gorgeous!!!
bgd & whiteflash are both amazing!
I'm a little bit of a size girl so I would choose the verrrry slightly larger one if my budget allowed! OVER 2.5 carats!! :love:
:appl:
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Both are fantastic.

I would probably go with the vendor that has the setting I like the best. :wavey:
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Gypsy|1393484894|3623949 said:
Both are fantastic.

I would probably go with the vendor that has the setting I like the best. :wavey:
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was going to say. They're both fantastic stones, so if one vendor has a setting you want I'd go with them. If neither vendor does, I'd pick the WF because of the $3000 savings for a miniscule size diff. That's as close as you can possible get to the 2.5 ct mark without cracking it. :appl: :love:
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Mark2014|1393464487|3623797 said:
Thank you for taking your time to reply. Much appreciated!

Of these two, which one would you rate better (if any)?
1) http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3045742.htm
2) http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/d...ls/2.516-i-si1-round-diamond-ags-104066185011
Click to expand...
I would take either one. Great job on picking those 2 sparklers. I would probably go WF to save the $3,000 for the setting.
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Thank you so much. Seeing diamonds in person and learning about all the facets has been turning from stressful into fun.
Great advice on the setting. That is my next challenge (and I'll probably involve my bride-to-be). She has 'casually' been showing me the Tiffany rings so I guess I'll have a target to look for!
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

OK.. back to square one. After having seen different diamonds (sizes) on her finger we both liked the 3 carat ones the best. So, the perfect findings so far will be for someone else.

A local jeweler has the following stone:
3.01 carat, 9.27 - 9.32 x 5.77 mm, I, SI2, Excellent cut, finish and polish.
PROPORTIONS:
Depth 62.1 %
Table 55 %
Crown Angle 32.0°
Crown Height 14.0%
Pavilion Angle 41.8°
Pavilion Depth 44.5%
Star Length 50%
Lower Half 80%
Girdle Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 3.5%
Culet None

https://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pa...&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=2155825609

I have seen the diamond and it looks very clean and no inclusions under the table. Furthermore, the major inclusions are on the side that supposedly can be hidden by the prongs (according to the jeweler). The diamond will be slightly over budget but still acceptable ($34k).
Is this a reasonable diamond?
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Light return: good
Fire: fair
Scintillation: fair
Spread: very good
Total visual performance: 4.9- Good - Only if price is your main criterium


Well, this doesn't sound too great, right?
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Mark2014|1393572738|3624566 said:
Light return: good
Fire: fair
Scintillation: fair
Spread: very good
Total visual performance: 4.9- Good - Only if price is your main criterium


Well, this doesn't sound too great, right?
Click to expand...
Not good, flat top with a deep bottom half.
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Mark2014|1393572738|3624566 said:
Light return: good
Fire: fair
Scintillation: fair
Spread: very good
Total visual performance: 4.9- Good - Only if price is your main criterium


Well, this doesn't sound too great, right?
Click to expand...

You got it! It's pretty bad.

So. I'm thinking maybe you go with a 2.8 carat, with ideal light return instead.

Also just so you know HCA is pass fail. 2 and under pass. 2.5-2.1 maybe, but only with an idealscope. 2.6 and over fail.

And there is an App. So you can take it with you if you are going to shop in person.
 
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Gypsy: thank you!!!! Fantastic choices you presented. I will immediately jump on the Yoni one.

For this size diamonds, is it preferred to go with a 6 prong setting? I personally prefer a 4 prong but if recommended I'll certainly will go with 6.
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Ps, the App you were referring to, what is it called? I search in the iTunes store for 'holloway cut advisor' and it didn't show anything. When searching under 'diamond cuts' a barber shop pops up!
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Mark2014|1393588089|3624607 said:
Gypsy: thank you!!!! Fantastic choices you presented. I will immediately jump on the Yoni one.

For this size diamonds, is it preferred to go with a 6 prong setting? I personally prefer a 4 prong but if recommended I'll certainly will go with 6.
Click to expand...

LW-Eightstar-broken-prong.jpg

Care to guess where my beautiful Eightstar might be today if this had been a 4-prong ring? :errrr: I highly recommend 6 prongs for any stone you don't want to risk losing.
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Message received! :D

(So happy for the existence of this forum!)
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Mark2014|1393592502|3624633 said:
Message received! :D

(So happy for the existence of this forum!)
Click to expand...

So happy we can help someone like yuo who wants to learn and find something you and your lady will treasure for a long time to come. :appl: :appl: :appl: :wavey:
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Two more selections (both HCA score <2). Any preference or show stoppers? At this moment I do not yet know if they are eyeclean (but vendors have been contacted):
#1:
AGS#: 104060298008
Report Type: The Platinum Light Performance Diamond Quality® Document
Shape and Style: Round Brilliant
Measurements: 9.19 - 9.24 x 5.69 mm
Cut Grade: AGS Ideal 0
Color Grade: AGS 2.5 (I)
Clarity Grade: AGS 6 (SI2)
Carat Weight 2.993
Fluorescence: Negligible
Comments: "AGSL 104060298008 H&A" has been inscribed on the girdle of this diamond. Additional twinning wisps and surface graining are not shown.
Light Performance: 0
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Table: 57.6%
Crown Angle: 35.1
Crown Height: 15.0%
Girdle: Faceted, 1.8% to 4.1%
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Pavilion Depth: 43.2%
Star Length: 51%
Lower Girdle Length: 76%
Total Depth: 61.8%
Culet: Pointed
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104060298008-PLDQR.PDF


#2:
ROUND BRILLIANT
Measurements 9.31 - 9.40 x 5.70 mm
Carat Weight 3.02 carat
Color Grade I
Clarity Grade SI1
Cut Grade Excellent
PROPORTIONS
Depth 60.9 %
Table 57 %
Crown Angle 34.0°
Crown Height 14.5%
Pavilion Angle 41.0°
Pavilion Depth 43.0%
Star Length 55%
Lower Half 80%
Girdle Medium, Faceted, 3.5%
Culet None
FINISH
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
Fluorescence Medium Blue

https://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pa...&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=2151846043
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Mark2014|1393612435|3624808 said:
Two more selections (both HCA score <2). Any preference or show stoppers? At this moment I do not yet know if they are eyeclean (but vendors have been contacted):
#1:
AGS#: 104060298008
Report Type: The Platinum Light Performance Diamond Quality® Document
Shape and Style: Round Brilliant
Measurements: 9.19 - 9.24 x 5.69 mm
Cut Grade: AGS Ideal 0
Color Grade: AGS 2.5 (I)
Clarity Grade: AGS 6 (SI2)
Carat Weight 2.993
Fluorescence: Negligible
Comments: "AGSL 104060298008 H&A" has been inscribed on the girdle of this diamond. Additional twinning wisps and surface graining are not shown.
Light Performance: 0
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Table: 57.6%
Crown Angle: 35.1
Crown Height: 15.0%
Girdle: Faceted, 1.8% to 4.1%
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Pavilion Depth: 43.2%
Star Length: 51%
Lower Girdle Length: 76%
Total Depth: 61.8%
Culet: Pointed
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104060298008-PLDQR.PDF


#2:
ROUND BRILLIANT
Measurements 9.31 - 9.40 x 5.70 mm
Carat Weight 3.02 carat
Color Grade I
Clarity Grade SI1
Cut Grade Excellent
PROPORTIONS
Depth 60.9 %
Table 57 %
Crown Angle 34.0°
Crown Height 14.5%
Pavilion Angle 41.0°
Pavilion Depth 43.0%
Star Length 55%
Lower Half 80%
Girdle Medium, Faceted, 3.5%
Culet None
FINISH
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
Fluorescence Medium Blue

https://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pa...&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=2151846043
Click to expand...

Mark,

Because you did not list who these diamonds are coming from I am, as a vendor allowed to comment on them. My comments will be my opinion and may not be the opinions of all the posters here.

On your first diamond, the 35.1 crown angle should pair nicely with the 40.8 Pavilion angel. The ASET looks good and the twinning wisps are often not visible, even though the plot makes them look HORRIBLE. This diamond actually has a high likely hood of being eye clean from the top, which is how diamonds are graded by the trade.

Your second diamond has a 34 degree crown angle which is poorly paired with a 41 degree pavilion angle so there is very likely loss of top performance in this diamond. It should still be pretty, but you can likely do better.

Wink
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Wink|1393616849|3624843 said:
Your second diamond has a 34 degree crown angle which is poorly paired with a 41 degree pavilion angle so there is very likely loss of top performance in this diamond. It should still be pretty, but you can likely do better.

Wink
Click to expand...
What?
41 degree pavilion perfectly compliments a 34 degree crown with longer lgf% which this one has.
Being gia a IS or ASET image is needed to verify because of all the rounding gia does.
If I ever launch a line of h&a rounds it would have those numbers on a gia report.
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Karl_K|1393617397|3624849 said:
Wink|1393616849|3624843 said:
Your second diamond has a 34 degree crown angle which is poorly paired with a 41 degree pavilion angle so there is very likely loss of top performance in this diamond. It should still be pretty, but you can likely do better.

Wink
Click to expand...
What?
41 degree pavilion perfectly compliments a 34 degree crown with longer lgf% which this one has.
Being gia a IS or ASET image is needed to verify because of all the rounding gia does.
Click to expand...

LOL. Karl, by the time it gets to 41 degrees it is already suspect in my book, as I do not like Steep/Deep diamonds. I like even less steep/shallow diamonds. I would have to see this one to believe it, and I am pretty sure I will not believe it. I was looking for some diamonds today and saw a LOT of GIA X cuts with 41+ pavilions. I did not tell my clients about any of them... I think I remember some of up to 41.4 or 41.5 but just instantly looked at the next diamond with out any further consideration at all so my memory could be flawed.

Wink
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

I can't top Wink and Karl (the true experts)... so I'll just sum up what they said.

Both are good choices, though some sticklers will have a strong preference for the first one, so I'd probably pursue that one if eyeclean! :wavey:

Can you get an IS of either? That would be best!
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Thank you for your responses. I'll try to obtain the IS of both but probably won't be before Monday. In any case, I'm happy both are good choices. The jewelers I spoke with also seemed very knowledge and great to work with.
 
Re: First time diamond buyer (ER). Thank heaven for this boa

Wink|1393618176|3624865 said:
Karl_K|1393617397|3624849 said:
Wink|1393616849|3624843 said:
Your second diamond has a 34 degree crown angle which is poorly paired with a 41 degree pavilion angle so there is very likely loss of top performance in this diamond. It should still be pretty, but you can likely do better.

Wink
Click to expand...
What?
41 degree pavilion perfectly compliments a 34 degree crown with longer lgf% which this one has.
Being gia a IS or ASET image is needed to verify because of all the rounding gia does.
Click to expand...

LOL. Karl, by the time it gets to 41 degrees it is already suspect in my book, as I do not like Steep/Deep diamonds. I like even less steep/shallow diamonds. I would have to see this one to believe it, and I am pretty sure I will not believe it. I was looking for some diamonds today and saw a LOT of GIA X cuts with 41+ pavilions. I did not tell my clients about any of them... I think I remember some of up to 41.4 or 41.5 but just instantly looked at the next diamond with out any further consideration at all so my memory could be flawed.


Wink
Click to expand...
Wink,
It is one of those edge things.
It goes over the edge quickly after 41 degrees and 41.4 and 41.5 RBs are not something I would consider either. If it was gia 41.2 then there is little chance of it being a good one but GIA 41 has a good chance of being a good one.
Color entrapment would be an issue with 41.4 and 41.5 they are totally different creatures.
34/41/77%+lgf with a table from 50 to 60 if cut right is a very viable combination for a diamond I would put on my Wife's finger.
 
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